2in1 - Simcoe vs. Chinook & Dry Hopping in a Secondary

[OkanaganMike]

I'm developing/brewing a black IPA today. I'm a little torn as to bitter with Chinook or Simcoe and dry hop at 7days with the other.
The hop schedule I have is below...(I included the leaf or pellet as its what I have.

1oz Simcoe/Chinook leaf - 60min
1 oz Chinook pellet - 15min
1 oz Centennial pellet - 10min
1 oz Cascade pellet 5 min
1 oz Centennial 0min
1 oz Simcoe/Chinook leaf - DH 7Day

Also - what is the benefit of dry hopping into a secondary? I don't do a lot of IPA's (but have been bitten by the bug) and usually go full term in a primary. I broke my 5gal carboy and only have 3ea 6.5gals now. I'll get another 5 if valid to do so.

 

[OkanaganMike]

I'm brewing a double header this morning so will put this one into second in line in hopes for some last minute guidance.

 

[IslandLizard]

I would bitter with Magnum, Warrior, Nugget, Apollo, or some other bittering hop and save the flavor/aroma hops like Centennial, Simcoe, Chinook, etc. for late additions. Those flavors would be wasted in an hour boil.

I'd also move the late addition hops up to flameout or after and do a lengthy (15-45') hopstand/whirlpool with those between 190-160°F for more flavor. Many IPA brewers split whirlpool hops into a high temp addition 190-180 and a low temp one at 170-160, or thereabout.

 

[Challenger440]

I have yet to use Chinook so I cannot attest to its flavor, but I can tell you that Simcoe and Centennial pair very well with each other. Based on that alone, I would tell you to use Chinook for bittering and Simcoe as your dry hop.

Our house pale ale here uses exclusively Simcoe and Centennial. It's SWMBO's favorite beer.

 

[OkanaganMike]

I would bitter with Magnum, Warrior, Nugget, Apollo, or some other bittering hop and save the flavor/aroma hops like Centennial, Simcoe, Chinook, etc. for late additions. Those flavors would be wasted in an hour boil.

I'd also move the late addition hops up to flameout or after and do a lengthy (15-45') hopstand/whirlpool with those between 190-160°F for more flavor. Many IPA brewers split whirlpool hops into a high temp addition 190-180 and a low temp one at 170-160, or thereabout.

I've always followed recipes verbatim and this is my first attempt at my own. The hop charts I've seen identify Simcoe as both bittering and aroma whereas Chinook only bittering but it smells decent by itself.

Never whirlpooled or hop standed. Do you just rest the boil after flame out and add the hops then for a certain time. Guessing whirlpooling is stirring it about in this time?

 

[IslandLizard]

I've always followed recipes verbatim and this is my first attempt at my own. The hop charts I've seen identify Simcoe as both bittering and aroma whereas Chinook only bittering but it smells decent by itself.

Never whirlpooled or hop standed. Do you just rest the boil after flame out and add the hops then for a certain time. Guessing whirlpooling is stirring it about in this time?

Yup, that's it, modern day IPA brewing. The hopstand packs a lot of long lasting flavors you'd never get from a 5' or flameout addition, it needs contact time.

Once the flame is off, the wort cools pretty fast down to 200F. You could chill with your chiller to the approximate hopstand temp, and even keep it there with a low flame if it cools too fast. Leave your immersion chiller in the kettle to keep it sanitized. Keep the lid on or as much as it will fit.

Arrogant Bastard is all Chinook! One of my favorite beers.

 

[IslandLizard]

Keeping oxygen (air) exposure to a minimum after fermentation has started is crucial to prevent oxidation and your IPAs from losing flavor and aroma, so the less you touch/rack your IPAs the better it is. Besides, using secondaries is not really necessary unless you want to age for extended times, 2-3 months or longer.

You can dry hop in your primary, after fermentation has subsided or is about done. Just drop the hops in, but make sure the leaf hops get submersed to prevent mold from forming. Dry hop 5 days to a week, this gives the beer some time to condition too. Then package.

 

[OkanaganMike]

Keeping oxygen (air) exposure to a minimum after fermentation has started is crucial to prevent oxidation and your IPAs from losing flavor and aroma, so the less you touch/rack your IPAs the better it is. Besides, using secondaries is not really necessary unless you want to age for extended times, 2-3 months or longer.

You can dry hop in your primary, after fermentation has subsided or is about done. Just drop the hops in, but make sure the leaf hops get submersed to prevent mold from forming. Dry hop 5 days to a week, this gives the beer some time to condition too. Then package.

Hey awlright! This is what I've been doing as the secondary seems more like a liability than any kind of asset to the beer.
I'll give the hopstand a go and adjust the late additions. Thanks IL.

 

[TheBigLebrewsk1]

I love Simcoe at all stages.

If you want to up your game a bit, ferment super cold for the yeast, 57-61 degrees to suppress a vigorous fermentation, thus preserving more hop aromatics from your late/hop stand additions.

 

[OkanaganMike]

OK so I posted the recipe in IPA recipe section. Can you guys take a look and let me know if the IBU's seem out? Seems to me they're way over the top to what they should be.
Actually I'll try and post it here too.

View attachment Lost In The Woods - Beer Recipe - Brewer's Friend.pdf

 

[IslandLizard]

Hops:
Whirlpool calcs are not very accurate (yet) and 104 IBU sound high.
According to BF there's a lot (40%) coming from the whirlpool hops, which I doubt is correct:

Why would a 45 minute hop stand give the same IBUs (14.3) as a 10 minute one (Centennial)?
BTW, are those 10, 45 and 45 minutes of hop stands respectively?
​

Here's my take:
I would push the 15' Chinook up to 0 minutes, flameout, let the temp drop naturally over 15 minutes. Chill to 180F and add your Centennial and Cascade, whirlpool for 15 minutes, while it drops naturally. Chill to 170F add your last Centennial, whirlpool for 15 minutes. Chill to fermentation temps with all hops present. My estimate is 80 IBU.

Oh, and make your 60' Chinook a FWH. Needless to say, don't take it out, leave it in.

Malts:
Is that 6-row intentionally?

1# of black malt is a lot. Is that Blackprinz, the debittered variety?
If you like wheat, use Briess Midnight Wheat, or Weyermann's Chocolate Wheat instead.
Don't you think .5# is plenty? It will be ink black regardless.

Carafa III - Get the "Special" variety, it's dehusked, much smoother.

I'd steep all the roasted malts separately from the mash, add the tincture when the wort has cooled to 180F.

Are you adding any gypsum to this? How's your water?

Add sugar after all hops are done whirlpooling, or after primary fermentation has slowed down, but a few days before dry hopping.

 

[OkanaganMike]

Hops:
Whirlpool calcs are not very accurate (yet) and 104 IBU sound high.
According to BF there's a lot (40%) coming from the whirlpool hops, which I doubt is correct:

Why would a 45 minute hop stand give the same IBUs (14.3) as a 10 minute one (Centennial)?
BTW, are those 10, 45 and 45 minutes of hop stands respectively?
​

Here's my take:
I would push the 15' Chinook up to 0 minutes, flameout, let the temp drop naturally over 15 minutes. Chill to 180F and add your Centennial and Cascade, whirlpool for 15 minutes, while it drops naturally. Chill to 170F add your last Centennial, whirlpool for 15 minutes. Chill to fermentation temps with all hops present. My estimate is 80 IBU.

Oh, and make your 60' Chinook a FWH. Needless to say, don't take it out, leave it in.

Malts:
Is that 6-row intentionally?

1# of black malt is a lot. Is that Blackprinz, the debittered variety?
If you like wheat, use Briess Midnight Wheat, or Weyermann's Chocolate Wheat instead.
Don't you think .5# is plenty? It will be ink black regardless.

Carafa III - Get the "Special" variety, it's dehusked, much smoother.

I'd steep all the roasted malts separately from the mash, add the tincture when the wort has cooled to 180F.

Are you adding any gypsum to this? How's your water?

Add sugar after all hops are done whirlpooling, or after primary fermentation has slowed down, but a few days before dry hopping.

Sheeeeeeit sounds like I'm over my head now. Any confidence (although fleeting) has completely booked out the door lol.

The pale malt is from gambrinus and I presumed it was 6 row as my LHBS also sells 2 row distillers malt.

The 10/45/45 was a typo. I was playing with the numbers to see what it would do to the IBU.

I wanted it black and again playing with the number #'s of BF I wasn't sure if the 1/2# would be dark enough. 1/2# made it around 30 something.

Didn't know there was a difference with Carafa but looking at whats left it is dehusked.

I'll do your hop suggestions as you seem to know what you're talking about.
Either way I'm knee deep in this now so we'll see what happens. Preboil gravity was 1.066 and tastes decent so far.

 

[OkanaganMike]

Here it is revised. Taking the 15' to flame out dropped it to 84.

View attachment Lost In The Woods - Beer Recipe - Brewer's Friend.pdf

 

[OkanaganMike]

She's black alright. I came up with the name due to pine flavor but now may change it to Jumping Tree Squid