22 MULTI-QUAT SANITIZER vs Star-San

[Gravity]

So, my LBS has been out of stock of starsan for awhile with a new shipment coming in a "couple of weeks", and while i'm waiting around for an online delivery, a friend of mine offered up some 22 Multi-quat sanitizer - stuff they have been using for restaurant sanitization etc. I did some reading and it looks like it something I can use in the meanwhile and also in the longterm - heck, why not, its free!

I have used other forms of sanitizers - ie starsan/iodine/betadine/boiling/bleach, however, i've never used a quat-sanitzer before. From what i read, and from what the rep told me, i can use it to sanitize equipment, fermentors, bottles etc as its a food safe/no rinse sanitizer. Not sure how much different it would be than using starsan. I did specifically ask about any residue, effect on any liquid and was told that as long as I diluted properly, to not worry.

After a quick messenger chat, she gave me the fact sheet/quick info (attached) along with telling me alot of breweries use it- do take a look and tell me what you think. Is this something that any of you would consider using?

i was also looking into PAA (peracetic acid) as another sanitizer - not that theres anything wing with Starsan, its just been a pain to get lately for some reason - probably all the home brewers brewing up a storm during quarantine

Cheers

 

[jddevinn]

You can get StarSan in 2 days on Amazon, assuming you are in the US.

Directions for the 22 Multi say it needs a 10 minute wet contact time.

https://www.amazon.com/Star-San-B00...&qid=1611961502&sprefix=starsa,aps,224&sr=8-2

 

[Wayne1]

I would not use quaternary ammonium for brewing. It is great for preventing mold and for surface wipe down. It does have a taste that will carry over into beer.

"200ppm Quat is sufficient for general no rinse surface sanitation, but word on the street it is deadly to head retention. Most (including Will Kemper) do not recommend its use for anything that will come in contact with the beer. "

"One term commonly used with regard to sanitizers is “post rinse”. Post-rinse sanitizing mean that rinsing is not required after the sanitizing step (when the sanitizer is used at an appropriate concentration and then properly drained). In other words, the beer (or wort) can come in contact with the equipment that has been sanitized without the sanitizer imparting a flavor profile to the finished product. The four best sanitizers I know of for post-rinse sanitizing are: chlorine dioxide, peracetic acid, iodophor, and phosphoric acid/anionic surfactant. Conversely, chlorine bleach is the worst, followed closely by quarternary ammonium compounds. Bleach imparts a chlorine flavor and quat (being cationic) will kill head retention in addition to giving the beer a medicine-like flavor profile" Dana Johnson: Principles of Cleaning and Sanitation, Birko Corp.

 

[Sammy86]

That pdf you posted has in HUGE letters do not consume...do not use it for brewing!

 

[Gravity]

I would not use quaternary ammonium for brewing. It is great for preventing mold and for surface wipe down. It does have a taste that will carry over into beer.

"200ppm Quat is sufficient for general no rinse surface sanitation, but word on the street it is deadly to head retention. Most (including Will Kemper) do not recommend its use for anything that will come in contact with the beer. "

"One term commonly used with regard to sanitizers is “post rinse”. Post-rinse sanitizing mean that rinsing is not required after the sanitizing step (when the sanitizer is used at an appropriate concentration and then properly drained). In other words, the beer (or wort) can come in contact with the equipment that has been sanitized without the sanitizer imparting a flavor profile to the finished product. The four best sanitizers I know of for post-rinse sanitizing are: chlorine dioxide, peracetic acid, iodophor, and phosphoric acid/anionic surfactant. Conversely, chlorine bleach is the worst, followed closely by quarternary ammonium compounds. Bleach imparts a chlorine flavor and quat (being cationic) will kill head retention in addition to giving the beer a medicine-like flavor profile" Dana Johnson: Principles of Cleaning and Sanitation, Birko Corp.

Good to know - you've used it before?

thanks for the quote — headless and medicine-like beer doesn't sound tasty - guess i'll wait for my starsan

 

[Gravity]

That pdf you posted has in HUGE letters do not consume...do not use it for brewing!

true - so does StarSan if I recall, its not on the data sheet, but maybe the bottle (?). I think in generally its good practice to not consume sanitizers

all cheekiness aside, I specifically asked about that and the rep said it was fine if the solution was mixed properly. That being said, i've never used it and I reckin there's a reason start san is king

 

[Gravity]

You can get StarSan in 2 days on Amazon, assuming you are in the US.

Directions for the 22 Multi say it needs a 10 minute wet contact time.

https://www.amazon.com/Star-San-B00...&qid=1611961502&sprefix=starsa,aps,224&sr=8-2

Thanks
Looks like the link you sent me underscores the issues i've been having with Starsan...i swear it seems like there is a wierd shortage happening
I did manage to order online though

 

[Qhrumphf]

Yeah I wouldn't use quat. Even if it's safe, off-characters could be a concern and I've also read quat is highly foam negative if nothing else.

PAA is good stuff but it's really noxious and dangerous when concentrated. I have less experience with chlorine dioxide but it's also good stuff, though just as noxious. Both are commonly used in commercial breweries.

 

[day_trippr]

Star San is remarkably benign - at least at any sane mix ratio. But it's also not a broad spectrum sanitizer, so there's that.
I vaguely remember reading Palmer or Papazian many (many) years ago that Quats were effective but not something to be trifled with...

Cheers!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Breweries using quat are often using it as an external sanitizer (tank exteriors, walls, floors, etc), and not for product surfaces.

 

[Gravity]

Yeah I wouldn't use quat. Even if it's safe, off-characters could be a concern and I've also read quat is highly foam negative if nothing else.

PAA is good stuff but it's really noxious and dangerous when concentrated. I have less experience with chlorine dioxide but it's also good stuff, though just as noxious. Both are commonly used in commercial breweries.

Appreciate the input - guess i'll use it to clean things around the brewhouse - its free after all

i can also get PAA, but starsan is looking like the way to go. Glad that wait time on impulsivity leads to interesting info

 

[Qhrumphf]

Fwiw iodophor is my preferred home sanitizer. Safe and very effective.

 

[Gravity]

Fwiw iodophor is my preferred home sanitizer. Safe and very effective.

haha..funny you mentioned it...I walked into the brewhouse a minute ago and a bottle of betadine was staring me in the face. I use it from time to time, however not as frequently as i would like. Guess i've gotten used to the foam of starsan something about it makes me feel like the surface is sanitized - its a bit comforting really vs the betadine where i have to do alot of swirling and splashing around to get all surfaces covered...especially on fermenters. Whats your process with idophor?

Ndombele did't have the magic against the Reds

 

[Qhrumphf]

I use BTF Iodophor which isn't betadine/povidone iodine, so I don't know how the dilutions would change. I'd aim for 12.5-25ppm titratable iodine (lower to upper ends of no-rinse range IIRC, if you follow dilution instructions on a brewing-specific iodine sani it'll get you there, if you're diluting drug store povidone may be tougher). Coat surfaces and/or soak for a couple minutes wet time. I try to keep things either closed or submerged to keep airborne contaminant post sani to a minimum without going to extremes like I would with a truly sterile procure.

 

[Qhrumphf]

https://lamotte.com/iodine-test-kit-7253-01
You can use that to test it. Very simple to directly measure efficacy of Iodophor, unlike with Star-San, where pH is an indirect measurement.

 

[PT Ray]

I've been using quat to sanitize my brew equipment for years despite reading the alleged impact. I'm not going to tell you they're baseless but may have to do with the user. Looking back, using it sparingly it had a minimal impact. Too strong and it may explain a fizzy head and an astringent, medicinal taste.

 

[Gravity]

I've been using quat to sanitize my brew equipment for years despite reading the alleged impact. I'm not going to tell you they're baseless but may have to do with the user. Looking back, using it sparingly it had a minimal impact. Too strong and it may explain a fizzy head and an astringent, medicinal taste.

Probably then best to avoid huh - i appreciate this

 

[moorejl57]

Good to know - you've used it before?

thanks for the quote — headless and medicine-like beer doesn't sound tasty - guess i'll wait for my starsan

I have been able to make headless beer with a medicine flavor without having to use the quat . I am a bit of an experimenter since I do 8 L batches and have used acidified bleach at 40 ppm twice without a chlorine/band aid like effect. It was actually recommended by Charlie Talley the chemist behind Star San. My little bottle of Star San got tipped over for a couple of months and it actually ate through the cap and leaked all over my cupboard. Wasn't fun to clean up. I of course recommend you stick with Star San given it's ease of use and neutral effects on flavor.

Edit: If you do want to try the acidified bleach no rinse, be very careful to dilute the 1/2 oz bleach in the 5 gal of water first and then add the same amount of vinegar to the water separately as to not have a dangerous release of chlorine gas.

 

[jddevinn]

Thanks
Looks like the link you sent me underscores the issues i've been having with Starsan...i swear it seems like there is a wierd shortage happening
I did manage to order online though

That's very strange. You don't have a location set but it must be a regional issue. Same link for me.