’Cause I don’t want to ruin my batch by underpitching the yeast.Why don't you find out by making beers using both methods?
Good to know! Any calculator recommendations?Use a yeast calculator to figure out your target pitch rate. The calculator will help you figure out how to hit your target rate using either multiple packets or using a starter. Both methods are fine, but using a starter is cheaper and confirms viability. If new yeast packets aren't stored properly, viability can suffer greatly.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
Thanks! Sorry I missed the link.Brewers Friend is good. Use the link I added to me previous message.
I agree that you don't want to underpitch and ruin your beers or at least have them take longer to ferment. But that wasn't quite the question you ask.’Cause I don’t want to ruin my batch by underpitching the yeast.
Oh yeah, and we’re talking about 20L batch (5gallon) here and 6% of abv.
Liquid yeast is not cheap. To make it cheap, you make starters with it. If its a favorite, you make a bigger starter than you need and decant some into a sanitized mason to store in the fridge for future use. Making a 2L starter with a couple steps is only a couple dollars to increase cell count and vitality to make a healthy, correct rate pitch for most standard gravity beers. I use Brewer's Friend as well.
So does this mean that I can make a 4L starter by using 1 pack of yeast and save other half for later?Liquid yeast is not cheap. To make it cheap, you make starters with it. If its a favorite, you make a bigger starter than you need and decant some into a sanitized mason to store in the fridge for future use. Making a 2L starter with a couple steps is only a couple dollars to increase cell count and vitality to make a healthy, correct rate pitch for most standard gravity beers. I use Brewer's Friend as well.
It is pretty common to create "overbuilt" starters. Basically, if you want 200B cells to pitch, you make a starter targeting 300B cells and set aside that 100B cells for the next cycle. Having a large flask/container and a stir plate helps with building up larger cell counts. A search of this forum or the web for "overbuilt starter" should point you at some good resources.So does this mean that I can make a 4L starter by using 1 pack of yeast and save other half for later?
Great, thanks!It is pretty common to create "overbuilt" starters. Basically, if you want 200B cells to pitch, you make a starter targeting 300B cells and set aside that 100B cells for the next cycle. Having a large flask/container and a stir plate helps with building up larger cell counts. A search of this forum or the web for "overbuilt starter" should point you at some good resources.
Firstly, I do not know how long you have been brewing, but yeast is a living organism. Numbers are one thing, and living entities are another. Fresh yeast is always better than "more yeast". Buying yeast is often not optimal as it can be old. When you grow up a starter you have really fresh, vital cells. So I would always lean towards 1 pack along with a starter.So does this mean that I can make a 4L starter by using 1 pack of yeast and save other half for later?
I love Brewer's Friend, they're an excellent resource. Although their yeast calculator is OK for most routine yeast related estimates, it's a bit limited.Any calculator recommendations?
my emphasis^always lean towards 1 pack along with a starter
Sorry, yes, buy 1 pack, make a starter with it and pitch.my emphasis^
along ???
Or did you mean 1 pack, make a starter with it, then pitch the starter?
Maybe. I would like to have a test like that out there. Dried yeast packages start with much more cells than a WL pitch. So one is ahead of the game with numbers. The drying process takes some life away from the cells, so that is where the unknown comes in. 95% is a big number and it depends on how well the wort was made to be able to tell a difference imho. Muddy, trubby etc.. wort is going to mask things no matter what yeast is pitched. I am about to tap an IPA I made with Verdant, so I will see if I like it after using WLP 001 forever. I know they are different but I am interested to see how it turned out.I am not knocking the yeast cell density thing but I use one 11g pack of dried Notty from Lallemand for most of my 30L batch beers and they start and ferment out great in four days. I do of course realise that liquid yeasts are available in greater varieties but I find the dried yeasts Lallemand sell are very good... I would be willing to bet 95or more percent of people would not know the difference between one yeast a to another in a proper blind test to be honest... but then again beer making is the new HiFi something to big up
Dried yeast packages start with much more cells than a WL pitch.
Maybe. I would like to have a test like that out there. Dried yeast packages start with much more cells than a WL pitch. So one is ahead of the game with numbers. The drying process takes some life away from the cells, so that is where the unknown comes in. 95% is a big number and it depends on how well the wort was made to be able to tell a difference imho. Muddy, trubby etc.. wort is going to mask things no matter what yeast is pitched. I am about to tap an IPA I made with Verdant, so I will see if I like it after using WLP 001 forever. I know they are different but I am interested to see how it turned out.
Interesting. That is not what I would have expected the cell count to be. Sorry for spreading homebrew lore! The old myth was one packet of say 34/70 was equal or better than a vial. I don't think that belief expects the vial to be half dead. Always read the details... That makes the BR97 a not-so-big pitch if one only uses a single packet.Per their website, Lallemand says a typical 11g packet will have 55b (Koln says 1b/gm, BR97 says 5b/gm) while a fresh WL will have 100b. Liquid loses viability by % with time at a rate dried yeast does not, that I will grant you.
I stick with it. Firstly you have to know what it tastes like made with the select yeast to start with. Secondly you need a remarkable pallet to taste the very subtle flavour hints over a huge dose of powerful hops. I think there will be some who can taste a yeast fermentation by product but I would put a huge amount of money on there being a lot more who could not tell the difference between two different yeasts used to make beer using exactly the same ingredients and conditions . I would say this getting the brewing and fermentation conditions right will make more difference to the flavour outcome that the strain of yeast used will. JMO though
Good to know, thanks!Firstly, I do not know how long you have been brewing, but yeast is a living organism. Numbers are one thing, and living entities are another. Fresh yeast is always better than "more yeast". Buying yeast is often not optimal as it can be old. When you grow up a starter you have really fresh, vital cells. So I would always lean towards 1 pack along with a starter.
Starters should be made in 8-10x volume increases per step to actually get cell growth (more numbers) and not overtax. 1 pack into a 4L starter is not optimal. You would want to step it up in stages.
I’ve noticed some huge differences between london fog or imperial vs verdant dry yeast for example. The liquid ones brings all the good and deepers flavors from hops than dry ones. But that’s just my opinion. Would I noticed the difference in blind test, maybeI am not knocking the yeast cell density thing but I use one 11g pack of dried Notty from Lallemand for most of my 30L batch beers and they start and ferment out great in four days. I do of course realise that liquid yeasts are available in greater varieties but I find the dried yeasts Lallemand sell are very good... I would be willing to bet 95or more percent of people would not know the difference between one yeast a to another in a proper blind test to be honest... but then again beer making is the new HiFi something to big up
I guess if you only use dry yeast you'll never really know how brewer's yeast strains differ so much. Interestingly, I've been experimenting with Lallemand dry yeast for several months. Not bad, but inferior to fresh wet yeast. I quit like Diamond Lager repitched, but WLP800 and WK833 blow it away. I find even fresh Lallemand 11g packs pitched in half batches (12L) take up to 48 hours before vigourous fermentation kicks off. More than 36 hours later than fresh wet yeast. So I'm a bit skeptical about claims one pack ferments 30L within 4 days. I do have a pack of Nottingham. I bet it struggles to finish half a batch of wort within a week.I am not knocking the yeast cell density thing but I use one 11g pack of dried Notty from Lallemand for most of my 30L batch beers and they start and ferment out great in four days. I do of course realise that liquid yeasts are available in greater varieties but I find the dried yeasts Lallemand sell are very good... I would be willing to bet 95or more percent of people would not know the difference between one yeast a to another in a proper blind test to be honest... but then again beer making is the new HiFi something to big up
As aside note, my one pack of Verdant brew struggled to attenuate and basically ran out of gas. If the 55 billion cell thing is correct then I should have pitched two packs. I think this is a mistake by the dried yeast maker if they are going to strangle the cell count when the new liquid makers are going in the opposite direction.
You'll end up with more happy yeast cells if you make a starter. It will also decrease lag time. I typically always make a starter from liquid yeast, but not for dry. It will ensure you have yeast ready to chomp.Hi all,
maybe stupid question but is it the same to brew with 2 packs of liquid yeast without a starter or 1 pack and 2 L starter? Or should I always make 1pack=1L starter or 2packs=2L starter?
Thx
I guess if you only use dry yeast you'll never really know how brewer's yeast strains differ so much. Interestingly, I've been experimenting with Lallemand dry yeast for several months. Not bad, but inferior to fresh wet yeast. I quit like Diamond Lager repitched, but WLP800 and WK833 blow it away. I find even fresh Lallemand 11g packs pitched in half batches (12L) take up to 48 hours before vigourous fermentation kicks off. More than 36 hours later than fresh wet yeast. So I'm a bit skeptical about claims one pack ferments 30L within 4 days. I do have a pack of Nottingham. I bet it struggles to finish half a batch of wort within a week.
I do not know why you are being so aggressive . I have told you what I do .. you don't believe me Why? It is like I come on here to tell lies ? I have better things to do with my time than make up yarns. Even if you go to Lallemand's own website you will see that fermentation can be competed in this time. I repeat I have had no issue at all completing a 25 - 30l batch fermentation simply by following the rehydration advice and pitching the rehydrated yeast cells into the fermenter and fermenting at 20C. Any way you have a good day.What I'm doing mainly to not get a good fermentation within a few hours is not typing crap. It takes yeast cells, in fact, any healthy living cell, several hours to remodel metabolism to cope with a new environment. It's highly unlikely a dry yeast reaches any of level of fermentation within a few hours. The only time I've ever observed fermentation kick off so soon is when repitching freshly top-cropped yeast directly into a fresh batch of wort. Mainly because the 'memory' of the fermentation metabolic profile exists. The probability of this occuring with pitched dry yeast is close to zero. Ask any genuinely skeptical biologist with an idea
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