125mL of 10% phosphoric acid too much?

[Kaz]

Looking at brewing an "East Coast IPA" in the near future and now that I have a decent pH meter and Beersmith has integrated mash pH I'm paying more attention to this. This is a 5.5 gal BIAB batch so mash volume is about 8.2gal and BS is telling me my estimated pH will be 5.7 and I'll need to add 128mL of 10% phosphoric to bring it down to about 5.2. Is that a crazy high amount to add? Will it give me any flavor additions. I'm planning on starting with 6 gallons of RO water and adding 2.2 gallons of my tap water which is pretty hard here in Lancaster, PA. Thanks for any input!

 

[xpops]

In even my lightest beers starting with all RO, i rarely use any more than .1 or .2 ml / gallon but that is 88% phosphoric. that would be about 1.6ml for 8gal of mash water.

i'm no mathematician, but to adjust that rate from 10% to 88%, i believe you'd have to use 8.8x more for 10% phosphoric, which would still put the max i'd ever us of 10% to be about 14ml?

that being said, it sounds really high, and would be worth using a second tool for a balance check. maybe Bru'nwater? that's what i use and ever since i started, all my beers have come out great with no off flavouring.

cheers,

 

[ajdelange]

A man had no watch and didn't, consequently, know what time it was so his sister, to whom he complained about this, gave him a watch for Christmas. Now he knew what time it was. But his other sister on the left coast, remembering that he never wore a watch and unaware of what her eastern sister had done also gave him one for his birthday in January. Now he was back to not knowing what time it was.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

According to the 'Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything is 42, so based upon this alone I suggest 42 ml of 10% phosphoric acid to go from mashing in at 5.7 pH to mashing in at 5.2 pH. Who knows if this will be right, but it at least seems more likely to be in the ballpark than does 128 ml.

 

[Kaz]

Thanks...those are really helpful answers...I guess I'll go find another source of help.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thanks...those are really helpful answers...I guess I'll go find another source of help.

We would like to help. We need information. Your water specs, and water and grist bill quantities would be great information by which to get real help. Otherwise we are just drawing straws, such as 42 (which may well be a decent answer).

As in the time when I decided to rapid cool my room temperature beer by putting a 12 ounce bottle in the freezer. 42 minutes ended up being the perfect answer. I do it routinely now,

 

[Kaz]

This is a 3.5 gal BIAB batch, full volume mash starting with 5.78 USGAL of water. My city tap water is generally pretty hard (60ppm Ca, 17.8ppm Mg, 32 ppm Cl, 152ppm bicarb), therefore I was going to cut it pretty hard with RO water, 3.8 gal of RO water and 1.4 gal of tap. Then, based on Beersmith's water profile tool, I was going to add .6g Gypsum, 3.8g MgSO4, 2.2g CaCl in order to get a good mineral profile and SO4/Cl ratio. This would bring me to 54ppm Ca, 17.8ppm Mg, 107ppm SO4, 63ppm Cl and 41ppm HCO3...all in the range I'm looking for. Problem is then Beersmith estimates my mash pH at 5.7 and then comes in the phosphoric addition (now 84mL into 23qt of mash water) for a 3.5 gal batch. The grain bill is pretty simple but a lot of light grains
6.5lb Pale 2 Row
14oz wheat malt
7 oz Carapils
3.8 oz crystal 10L
7oz Dextrose

Now, I'm well aware that I haven't actually mashed this malt bill yet and therefore haven't made a real world measurement, but my initial question still stands. Beersmith predicts a mash pH of 5.71 and if I desire to hit 5.2, it tells me that an addtion of 10% phosphoric acid at 84.7mL is needed. Am I doing some thing wrong here because that sounds like a large volume of acid to add to a 3.5gal batch? Again, thanks for any assistance.

 

[Yooper]

This is a 3.5 gal BIAB batch, full volume mash starting with 5.78 USGAL of water. My city tap water is generally pretty hard (60ppm Ca, 17.8ppm Mg, 32 ppm Cl, 152ppm bicarb), therefore I was going to cut it pretty hard with RO water, 3.8 gal of RO water and 1.4 gal of tap. Then, based on Beersmith's water profile tool, I was going to add .6g Gypsum, 3.8g MgSO4, 2.2g CaCl in order to get a good mineral profile and SO4/Cl ratio. This would bring me to 54ppm Ca, 17.8ppm Mg, 107ppm SO4, 63ppm Cl and 41ppm HCO3...all in the range I'm looking for. Problem is then Beersmith estimates my mash pH at 5.7 and then comes in the phosphoric addition (now 84mL into 23qt of mash water) for a 3.5 gal batch. The grain bill is pretty simple but a lot of light grains
6.5lb Pale 2 Row
14oz wheat malt
7 oz Carapils
3.8 oz crystal 10L
7oz Dextrose

Now, I'm well aware that I haven't actually mashed this malt bill yet and therefore haven't made a real world measurement, but my initial question still stands. Beersmith predicts a mash pH of 5.71 and if I desire to hit 5.2, it tells me that an addtion of 10% phosphoric acid at 84.7mL is needed. Am I doing some thing wrong here because that sounds like a large volume of acid to add to a 3.5gal batch? Again, thanks for any assistance.

What did you pick 5.2? That's pretty low. I'd shoot for 5.4 or thereabouts, and call it good.

84ish ml of phosphoric acid is fine, but probably not necessary. I wouldn't go to 5.2 for any beer except perhaps a dry stout.

You can leave out the mgS04- it does nothing for you except increase the sulfate which you can do by increasing the gypsum (if you want to increase the sulfate). Usually, a NE IPA will use far less sulfate and increase the chloride, supposedly to give that "pillowy" mouthfeel.

Forget about any such thing as a "cl/S04 ratio". 1:2 can be 10:20, 50:100, 250:500- but all would give wildly different results. The ratio is meaningless- it's the actual amounts that matter. So maybe rethink some of the water ideas there- the mash pH of 5.2 (too low in my opinion), and the ratio of sulfate:chlorde which is meaningless and also too high in sulfate for some tastes.

 

[wyowolf]

Would acidulated malt be a better option here?

 

[Yooper]

Would acidulated malt be a better option here?

No, not better. Different, yes.

The thing is, acidulated malt and lactic acid do have flavor impacts over a certain amount (generally a fairly low threshold for tasting it), while phosphoric acid does not.

A better option to me would to be using all distilled or RO water and adding just a few flavor salts, and a little acid if needed to hit a mash pH of 5.3-5.4.

If not that, than sparging with 100% RO or distilled water with no additions would be my next choice.

A full volume batch, with no sparge, means that more acid or more distilled/RO water (or both) is needed.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

This may sound weird, but for 42 ml of 10% phosphoric added to the water and minerals as you have described them (cut with RO), I have you mashing in at a pH of 5.30. It shouldn't sound too weird though, as (despite my lame attempt at linking it to humor) the value of 42 was an educated guess.

 

[Kaz]

A pH of 5.2 is the number that Beersmith already had as the suggested pH and thus I kept it there. I'm definitely open to raising it a little and cutting the acid. The other minerals I was adjusting were from an article and that just said to keep bicarb under 50ppm and shoot for SO4:Cl ratio of 100:50ppm or this particluar recipe was 200ppm SO4:100pp Cl. I've never tried building water from scratch, but it seemd like if I could get decent numbers by mixing in some of my tap water then I should give it a go.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The pH meter was not even invented until 1934, and certainly lots of tasty beer was made before 1934. Don't quote me on this, but I believe that from that juncture through the 1950's and into the 60's (at least) the breweries mainly targeted mash at pH 5.0, then through the years from that point on the nominal "ideal" mash pH has drifted upward, to where today it sits at 5.4.

Brulosophy recently mashed at pH 4.45 (this requiring the addition of 19 ml of lactic acid 88% for a 5 gallon batch), and the beer came out indistinguishable (as judged by a panel of [off the top of my head] about 24 testers) from their control batch which mashed at pH 5.30.

 

[Kaz]

Ya, I know, its not something huge to worry about. But I got this pH meter for Christmas and now I feel as though I should put it to good use lol Since BIAB is such a thin mash and high water/grain ratio, is it even worth waiting 15 or 20 mins, measuring and adjusting pH?

 

[IslandLizard]

A mash pH of 5.2 (at room temps) is too low. Please reference your results using a different water calculator, like Bru'nwater (or EZ water). Something doesn't seem to add up right.

Do a test mash with 1/2 a pound or a pound of your grist mix. After 20' measure the pH of an ounce of the wort, chilled to room temps (use a small glass from freezer). Repeat after 40'. Upon your readings, re-adjust for the main batch, if needed.

 

[Kaz]

A good question that I haven't researched is whether Beersmith's pH estimates and adjustments are at mash temps or room temp...

 

[hotwatermusic]

Ya, I know, its not something huge to worry about. But I got this pH meter for Christmas and now I feel as though I should put it to good use lol Since BIAB is such a thin mash and high water/grain ratio, is it even worth waiting 15 or 20 mins, measuring and adjusting pH?

I think you would want to wait in any case. You still need the ions to disperse and equilibrilize (HB english), except in a BIAB there is more liquid to get to.
Go ahead, learn the meter. I did the same thing a year ago. Hasn't drastically improved my beers but it's a nice tool to have and know how to use. Don't worry about the quality of advice, some people certainly mean well. Some aren't worth the time to worry about them... and ALWAYS room temps for pH

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Mashing at a room temperature measured 5.2 pH is just fine. Scotty at Low Oxygen Brewing targets 5.2 mash pH for all of their batches (with measurement confirmed to be at room temperature), and claims his brews taste noticeably better at 5.2 than at 5.4.

 

[ajdelange]

But do they, in fact? 5.2 is pretty low in most peoples' experience. Now if Scotty prefers the beers he makes at that pH that is fine and he should shoot for 5.2 when he does. As I usually do I advocate a more conservative approach in which a more nominal 5.4 - 5.5 is the target. Get to know that beer then brew it again at 5.2. Better? Note also that you cannot speak of better without first having defined your optimality criterion. There are several e.g. is it sufficient that you think its better or is it your SO's palate you are trying to please?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

RPIScotty (Low Oxygen Brewing) references German brewing scientist Wolfgang Kunze as giving a range of arguments in favor of mashing at pH 5.2, and Kai Troester lists these same arguments from Wolfgang Kunze on his Braukaiser website. I'll admit that pH 5.2 is pushing the envelope, and the need for reliable instrumentation and measurement technique (as well as an excellent handle on each grist bill components actual DI mash pH, as opposed to a guesstimate) is increased when setting this as ones mash target..

I often target 5.35 as my mash pH, admittedly for no other reason than that it sits smack between 5.2 and 5.5, and gives me some mash pH wiggle room for error (due to guesstimates) in each direction.

 

[Kaz]

I often target 5.35 as my mash pH, admittedly for no other reason than that it sits smack between 5.2 and 5.5, and gives me some mash pH wiggle room for error (due to guesstimates) in each direction.

I'm surprised you don't shoot for a mash pH of 42...or maybe 4.2 would be more achievable...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm surprised you don't shoot for a mash pH of 42...or maybe 4.2 would be more achievable...

Well, in the end (per the lab mice) the most properly posed question that computed to the ultimate answer of 42 was: "How many roads must a man walk down?"

I guess I'll be paying for my pun by having to walk down this road 42 times.

How about 5.35 +/- 0.042? I wish I could achieve that level of precision. The last mash I measured (I don't always measure) came in at 5.26.

 

[Kaz]

So the moral of the story here...brewed this beer today, East Coast IPA 5.53gal RO water for a full volume BIAB mash with about 8.6lb of light grains in the grist. Added 2.5g gypsum and 6g CaCl2 to get some Ca, SO4 and Cl2 ions in there. 20 minutes into the mash, measured pH at 20C on a freshly calibrated pH meter and hit 5.3 with no acid additions necessary. Beersmith still predicted a pH of 5.7 with that grain bill and salt additions so, to Beersmith's mash pH predictor I say GOOD DAY SIR!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Well done!!! RO water and added minerals is the way to go. At least you learned this the easy way. I had to learn it the hard way, being convinced at first that with enough manipulation I could turn my abysmal well water into great brewing water. I couldn't.

 

[ajdelange]

So the moral of the story here...brewed this beer today, East Coast IPA 5.53gal RO water for a full volume BIAB mash with about 8.6lb of light grains in the grist. Added 2.5g gypsum and 6g CaCl2 to get some Ca, SO4 and Cl2 ions in there. 20 minutes into the mash, measured pH at 20C on a freshly calibrated pH meter and hit 5.3 with no acid additions necessary. Beersmith still predicted a pH of 5.7 with that grain bill and salt additions so, to Beersmith's mash pH predictor I say GOOD DAY SIR!

It is unlikely that you would reach a pH of 5.3 with RO water, even with the added calcium without using sauermalz, some colored malts or bottle acid. Be suspicious. Check your pH meter. Preferrably by doing the stability test in the Sticky.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I did my best to guesstimate this grist and its updated water, and I'm ballparking a need for 25-30 ml of 10% phosphoric. All will probably be well though. A big unknown is the alkalinity of the RO water itself. I guessed at RA = 15

 

[Kaz]

I'll have to double check my pH meter, its a Milwaulkee that that seems to work pretty well for everyone and I had calibrated it just minutes prior to testing my mash. I was surprised that the pH was down that low, but I'll take it. Either way, I'm sure I'll have made beer and it will be drank. I'll try the stability test here in the near future, thanks for the help.

 

[ajdelange]

The alkalinity of the RO water isn't going to be anything like 15 unless the membrane is old or damaged or the water is extremely alkaline. 0 is a better estimate.

The point being that given no source of acidity and typical base malts with 0 alkalinity for the RO water and a bit of calcium 5.65 - 5.7 isn't a bad estimate for the pH. The real driver here will be the di mash pH of the base malt(s). 30 - 35 mL 10% phosphoric will be required to get pH down to the 5.5 region

 

[day_trippr]

The alkalinity of the RO water isn't going to be abything like 15 unless the membrane is old or damaged or the water us extremely alkaline. 0 is a better estimate.[...]

True fact, that. Which makes the Bru'n Water defaults for RO content curiously out of normal bounds as it calculates to an RA of 15.

I found this out after the first couple of brews with my RO system, using the RO defaults to set "my" water makeup. When I went to acidify my 12 gallon sparge volume Bru'n Water insisted on a few ml of 25% phosphoric acid was needed, but after dribbling in a mere 1 ml (using a 1 ml syringe) the sparge liquor pH dropped to 4.6

Same thing happened on the second brew, convincing me the first wasn't a weird fluke.
So I adjusted my water makeup to reflect what I was actually seeing, and the third batch went off without a hitch...

Cheers!

 

[mabrungard]

The alkalinity of the RO water isn't going to be abything like 15 unless the membrane is old or damaged or the water us extremely alkaline. 0 is a better estimate.

AJ, you seem to forget that RO operates on the basis of percentage removal. If the water supply has a lot of 'stuff' in it, the RO will also have a proportional amount of 'stuff' in it. Expecting zero for alkalinity is not feasible for many RO users.

 

[ajdelange]

AJ, you seem to forget that RO operates on the basis of percentage removal. If the water supply has a lot of 'stuff' in it, the RO will also have a proportional amount of 'stuff' in it. Expecting zero for alkalinity is not feasible for many RO users.

The alkalinity of the RO water isn't going to be anything like 15 unless the membrane is old or damaged or the water is extremely alkaline. 0 is a better estimate.

For most people. If alkalinity is say 300 or more we might expect alkalinity of 15 at 95% rejection. Far, far more people have alkalinity below 100 than have it over 300. 0 is a better estimate. A cheap TDS meter is a good way to see if one is in the minority.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]A cheap TDS meter is a good way to see if one is in the minority.

And to that end I only have myself to blame for not seeing the obvious.
My TDS was showing 8.
Why I went with an RA of 15 anyway for two brews was stupidity in action...

Cheers!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Due to terrible well water with through the roof high everything, my homes RO has a measured TDS of 58 (116 uS/Cm). Based upon this I'm guestimating that my RO water has alkalinity of ~26 and bicarb of ~32. Do these values seem about right for RO water with a measured TDS of 58?

 

[JDL]

Looking forward to hearing reply on this as well. I am about to order my RO System and was wondering how to calculate the RA off the TDS.

Jeff

 

[ajdelange]

And to that end I only have myself to blame for not seeing the obvious.
My TDS was showing 8.
Why I went with an RA of 15 anyway for two brews was stupidity in action...

Wisdom is the state of understanding that comes from having experiences we wouldn't have if we were wise.

 

[ajdelange]

Due to terrible well water with through the roof high everything, my homes RO has a measured TDS of 58 (116 uS/Cm). Based upon this I'm guestimating that my RO water has alkalinity of ~26 and bicarb of ~32. Do these values seem about right for RO water with a measured TDS of 58?

For starters, 58 ppm as a TDS estimate does not seem very high. Were it all sodium chloride (and your meter calibrated for sodium chloride) you would have 1 mEq/L Na (23 mg/L) and 35 mg/L Cl-. Not RO water but not exactly 'terrible' either.

But, of course, your well water is probably a mix of sodium, chloride, sulfate, bicarbonate, calcium and magnesium ions with perhaps a little potassium. Conductivity measures the sum of conductivity contributions of all these ions and so it is impossible to tell what its composition is without other measurements. If the only thing in the water is temporary hardness then you could look up the conductivity of calcium bicarbonate solutions and determine how much is dissolved and then calculate hardness and alkalinity from that. Or assume that temporary hardness is the major contributor and bound alkalinity and hardness from that. But you well may have some permanent hardness, sodium, potassium, chloride...

Get hardness and alkakinity test kits. That's how to determine those two parameters.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

For starters, 58 ppm as a TDS estimate does not seem very high. Were it all sodium chloride (and your meter calibrated for sodium chloride) you would have 1 mEq/L Na (23 mg/L) and 35 mg/L Cl-. Not RO water but not exactly 'terrible' either.
....

Get hardness and alkakinity test kits. That's how to determine those two parameters.

Per a GH/KH test kit, my wells alkalinity as CaCO3 is 436 ppm. And my wells total hardness (as calcium carbonate and/or magnesium carbonate) is 758 ppm.

GH = 42.5 drops into 5 ml (averaged over several quite consistent runs)
KH = 24.5 drops into 5 ml (averaged over several quite consistent runs)

The well water first goes through a softener, and then through an under the sink RO unit, and the RO comes out at 58 ppm TDS.

 

[ajdelange]

Check the drop in hardness going through your RO unit. Then apply the same rejection to you alkalinity. This will be rough as membranes reject different ions to a different extent. If you really want to know the alkalinity of your RO water, measure it.

The softener will bring the hardness of water run through it down to a couple of ppm. Thus the hardness of the RO system permeate should be near 0.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Check the drop in hardness going through your RO unit. Then apply the same rejection to you alkalinity. This will be rough as membranes reject different ions to a different extent. If you really want to know the alkalinity of your RO water, measure it.

The softener will bring the hardness of water run through it down to a couple of ppm. Thus the hardness of the RO system permeate should be near 0.

If the total hardness of my RO water is near zero, does that mean that the majority of my 58 TDS reading is alkalinity? I initially assumed that there must be a split between cations and anions, which totals to 58.

 

[ajdelange]

Whereas if previously you had mostly temporary hardness half would have been calcium, now it's sodium.