Junk Efficiency With Keg Setup - Need Help

On my last beer, I got what must've been about 62-63% efficiency. Not good. I'm using a three half barrel keg setup and here's the problem. I think that because of the convex bowl on the bottom of my mash tun keg, I've got a huge deadspace that's killing my efficiency. There has to be about 2 gallons from the bottom of that bowl up to the valve. And then from the valve to the fixture where my false bottom rests, it's got to be another .5-.75 gallons. Since this was professionally done by a welder, I can't really mess with the fixture's placement. Even if I did, the bowl-convex thing on the bottom would still suck up some space.

So I have two options as far as I can tell. Use my HLT and just put my false bottom in that, with its gasket, and allow it to rest directly in the bottom, which'll probably buy me about 1-1.25 gallons, maybe a little more. But I'd still have to arrange for something for that false bottom to rest on, even if it was just propped up on that dead space. I just don't know what.

I could continue the MLT, but I'd have to have something water tight and food safe to place over that convex bowl to eat up the dead space. Or...I continue to use the MLT as it is and do something stupid and drastic, like try to rubber hammer that bowl in, but I don't know how resilient the stainless steel would be.

That's all I've got, guys. Any idea on how I can improve the efficiency of my system? Everything else should be fine, at least in terms of technique, etc. I'm pretty sure my loss is due to the deadspace I've got. The only other thing that would be suspect is that I "milled" one pound of 90L by crushing it with a rolling pin. But even that shouldn't have lowered the net efficiency to what it was. Beyond that, I'm stumped.

Just add a dip tube inside to reach to the bottom of the keg. You should be able to get nearly all of the liquid out of the keg.

Is there a DIY for that? Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I figured my low mashing efficiency was because the mash water wasn't entirely "on the level" with the grains being mashed...that the extra deadspace, left less water/wort exposed to the grains - if that makes sense.

I think I'm with you now. Your saying that you have 2-3 gallons of space that your grains aren't touching that fills with water?

That's right. The valve is on the very lowest part of the keg. Right above where the keg is "empty" and has only the extended metal ring to sit on. Then about a half inch, three quarters of an inch above that is the fixture my false bottom is on. Below the valve is the dip I mentioned, which must suck up about at least 2 gallons or so. All said, probably 2.5-3 gallons not touching the grain. My estimate comes from dumping water into the keg tun until it was up to the false bottom and measuring it. About 3 gallons. : /

EinGutesBier said:

That's right. The valve is on the very lowest part of the keg. Right above where the keg is "empty" and has only the extended metal ring to sit on. Then about a half inch, three quarters of an inch above that is the fixture my false bottom is on. Below the valve is the dip I mentioned, which must suck up about at least 2 gallons or so. All said, probably 2.5-3 gallons not touching the grain. My estimate comes from dumping water into the keg tun until it was up to the false bottom and measuring it. About 3 gallons. : /

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You could thread in a easymasher set up from Schmidling. This has a bent copper tube that will get the flow towards the bottom of the dome. I've used just a tube before but it does not have the Stainless secreen that the easymasher has. It takes quite a while to run clear without the screen. I brewed a 10 gal Boh pils and was getting 1.031 pts/lb with the screen and tube set up. With out it was was only getting 1.027 pts/lb.

Sounds like you have good excuse to get a recirculating system set-up

SWMBO- Why do you need a pump and all this crap!
EinGutesBier- If I don't get this my beer will not be as good and it will cost more in the long run because I will have to buy so much more grain.

HERMS, RIMS here EinGutesBier comes :rockin:

Boerderij Kabouter said:

Sounds like you have good excuse to get a recirculating system set-up

SWMBO- Why do you need a pump and all this crap!
EinGutesBier- If I don't get this my beer will not be as good and it will cost more in the long run because I will have to buy so much more grain.

HERMS, RIMS here EinGutesBier comes :rockin:

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Well, that settles it. I know where my economy stimulus money is going.

Any places you recommend I look for it? Brands, etc?

Its all opinion at that point. I like HERMS and that is what I plan on doing when I get the money together for the upgrade. You can do it for pretty cheap and easy, just a single pump for recirc and your immersion chiller as the heat exchanger in you HLT. Then again, you could go all stainless and automated with sanitary clover fittings and .....

I'd like to see a picture of your false bottom setup so I can understand it better. There might be an easy and cheap solution for you.

Bobby_M said:

I'd like to see a picture of your false bottom setup so I can understand it better. There might be an easy and cheap solution for you.

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Well, maybe in this case, the cost effective solution would be to make a manifold to fit to the inside of my keg MLT. If anyone can recommend a good way to do that, I'd be appreciative. Just to be sure I understand the concept, you simply have a manifold that lies at the bottom of your keg, and this is connected to the opposite end of your valve, and the grain then rests directly on top of the manifold, right? Worst case scenario, I could set my false bottom right on top of that manifold. I assume there are some DIY guides I can refer to out there, right?

Ok, so in reading the first couple posts in more detail, I see that your false bottom is ABOVE where the sidewall drain is. The real solution is to cut your false bottom so that it will rest on the bottom of the keg, just where the sidewalls turn into the convex bottom. Then you'll run a siphon tube from the bulkhead down through a hole in the false bottom to pick up the liquid below.

Bobby_M said:

Ok, so in reading the first couple posts in more detail, I see that your false bottom is ABOVE where the sidewall drain is. The real solution is to cut your false bottom so that it will rest on the bottom of the keg, just where the sidewalls turn into the convex bottom. Then you'll run a siphon tube from the bulkhead down through a hole in the false bottom to pick up the liquid below.

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Here's a picture of my setup...very basic:

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Unfortunately, my false bottom is solid with a hinge in the middle, but I did make a rubber gasket for the sides. So that wouldn't allow me to to use a siphon tube, I don't think. Luckily, the way it sets, it would sit above the valve. If I did that, what would I want to set under it for support? Or would I need anything so it didn't buckle under the weight of the wet grain? That'd probably be the easiest solution if I could figure out the logistics of the weight support.

EinGutesBier said:

Here's a picture of my setup...very basic:

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Unfortunately, my false bottom is solid with a hinge in the middle, but I did make a rubber gasket for the sides. So that wouldn't allow me to to use a siphon tube, I don't think. Luckily, the way it sets, it would sit above the valve. If I did that, what would I want to set under it for support? Or would I need anything so it didn't buckle under the weight of the wet grain? That'd probably be the easiest solution if I could figure out the logistics of the weight support.

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My false bottom is two sloted coppper plates that sits on top of stainless steel sheet metal that is about 2 in height on end. There are four long pcs and two shorter pcs that have a bandsaw cut half way through the 2 in width. The slots are at the same location on the steel strips. One strip has the slots facing up the other is facing down so that they fit over each other forming a grid. This supports the weight of the false bottom and you can pile quite a bit of grain on it and it will not collapse. I use the easymasher by positioning in between the grid pcs. The easymasher sells for about $30 and threads in to the coupling welded in the keg.

I would consider buying a bucket of glass marbles and filling in the bottom space with them. They would be easy to clean and remove

good luck

It really depends on how thick your false bottom is but you can support it in many different ways. You can use stainless screws as "standoffs" or legs that will touch the bottom. You can use a hose clamp on the siphon tube just below the false bottom that will at least support it from the center.

Bobby_M said:

It really depends on how thick your false bottom is but you can support it in many different ways. You can use stainless screws as "standoffs" or legs that will touch the bottom. You can use a hose clamp on the siphon tube just below the false bottom that will at least support it from the center.

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Thanks for the ideas, Bobby, and thanks to everyone else, too. Beats the heck out of beating the heck out of my MLT with a hammer. :cross:

Boar Beer said:

I would consider buying a bucket of glass marbles and filling in the bottom space with them. They would be easy to clean and remove

good luck

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Nice idea. Somebody has been reading his Aesop!


TL

I would put a poly tube on the inside going down into the fals bottom and connect to the backside of your valve. Then put a drop down tube in the front that went a few inches lower than the bottom of your keg so when you open the valve it gives you a siphoning action and pulls out the remainder of your wort... I hope that is understandable....

I would make sure you are calculating your efficiency right too. I like to calculate before I boil.

dougler13 said:

I would put a poly tube on the inside going down into the fals bottom and connect to the backside of your valve. Then put a drop down tube in the front that went a few inches lower than the bottom of your keg so when you open the valve it gives you a siphoning action and pulls out the remainder of your wort... I hope that is understandable....

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I think I understand...though if there's a link to an article, or a diagram or a DIY, that'd be great.

EinGutesBier said:

I think I understand...though if there's a link to an article, or a diagram or a DIY, that'd be great.

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Check out the Schmidling easymasher. It has a good drawing showing the same concept.

http://schmidling.com/empp.htm

You really need to find a way to lower the false bottom or fill in the deadspace. There is just way too much room there for water to sit without contacting the grain during your mash.

Or you could possibly compensate by using more mash water and sparge water. You would have a lot more volume to boil down but it might work? Some one with a little more experience will have to chime in on this idea.

Liquidicem said:

You really need to find a way to lower the false bottom or fill in the deadspace. There is just way too much room there for water to sit without contacting the grain during your mash.

Or you could possibly compensate by using more mash water and sparge water. You would have a lot more volume to boil down but it might work? Some one with a little more experience will have to chime in on this idea.

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I do exactly what you mentioned. I compensate with extra water for the mash. When I first start the sparge I recirculate the water from the bottom until it runs clear. For 11 gals going in the primary, most regular strength beers I think I use 7 gal for the mash and 9 gal for the sparge. I'd have to check my notes at home for the water amts to be sure.

Warrior said:

I do exactly what you mentioned. I compensate with extra water for the mash. When I first start the sparge I recirculate the water from the bottom until it runs clear. For 11 gals going in the primary, most regular strength beers I think I use 7 gal for the mash and 9 gal for the sparge. I'd have to check my notes at home for the water amts to be sure.

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It may just be that simple, Warrior. I usually do 6 gallon batches, though I may up that to 7 now that I've got my 8 gallon fermenter. Now I just have to crunch the numbers on my compensation. Any idea as to how long it would take to boil that volume down to an adequate gravity? Also, do you condense the wort before doing hop additions?

EinGutesBier said:

It may just be that simple, Warrior. I usually do 6 gallon batches, though I may up that to 7 now that I've got my 8 gallon fermenter. Now I just have to crunch the numbers on my compensation. Any idea as to how long it would take to boil that volume down to an adequate gravity? Also, do you condense the wort before doing hop additions?

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I usually do a 90 min boil. I don't add my bittering hops until I get to 60. I think my numbers were off a little for 11 gal I think I use 8 gal mash and 9 gal sparge. The tube does help get more efficancy though. you don't leave much concentrated wort sugars in the kettle. I use the extra water to keep the mash the proper consistancy.

Oh, ok. That sounds about right. How much volume would you say you have at the beginning of the boil?

EinGutesBier said:

Oh, ok. That sounds about right. How much volume would you say you have at the beginning of the boil?

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This is a guess but I would say probably around 13 1/2 to 14 gals.

Get a short piece of bendable copper and make a diptube. Get a diameter that will fit inside the opening of your ball valve easily and just shove it in. This is what I have on my MLT and I leave less than a quart behind.

EinGutesBier said:

Oh, ok. That sounds about right. How much volume would you say you have at the beginning of the boil?

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Got the keg out for mashing tomorrow. It took about 2 3/4 gal to reach the copper plates. I'm doing a 5 1/2 gal Bock tomorrow. I'm figuring 13 1/2 lbs of grain to get around a 1.070 gravity at the end of the boil. 6 gal of water for the mash (3 1/4 actually mixed in the grain) and 5 1/2 gal for the sparge. I threaded the easymasher in the keg fitting also. This will syphon most of the wort out of the kettle and the screen around the easymasher should help the runnings to get clear much faster than just using a dip tube. I'll let you know the results this weekend.

Warrior said:

Got the keg out for mashing tomorrow. It took about 2 3/4 gal to reach the copper plates. I'm doing a 5 1/2 gal Bock tomorrow. I'm figuring 13 1/2 lbs of grain to get around a 1.070 gravity at the end of the boil. 6 gal of water for the mash (3 1/4 actually mixed in the grain) and 5 1/2 gal for the sparge. I threaded the easymasher in the keg fitting also. This will syphon most of the wort out of the kettle and the screen around the easymasher should help the runnings to get clear much faster than just using a dip tube. I'll let you know the results this weekend.

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I hate to be the odd man out, but what's an easymasher? I did a quick search for it and it didn't give me an idea of what it is. This might be a good solution to consider.

EinGutesBier said:

I hate to be the odd man out, but what's an easymasher? I did a quick search for it and it didn't give me an idea of what it is. This might be a good solution to consider.

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Go to my post #22 I have the website connection listed.

Warrior said:

Go to my post #22 I have the website connection listed.

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Hey, that's some cool stuff. I don't suppose there's a DIY for this? I essentially have half of that build into my keg. :cross: Though they never specify if the mesh on those are SS or not. In the case of making it myself, would I be able to get the right material for the screen from any hardware stores?

Also, to check my understanding...the grain simply sits on top of the easymasher screen?

EDIT: I see they did specify that it was SS. Would it be possible to find/use a copper mesh if SS screening couldn't be found? I'm going to guess that using the type of screening used on windows would be a bad idea.

I you have a false bottom now, you don't really need the ss braid on the end of the easy masher. You really want a pickup tube that is solid all the way to the bottom of the convex. This will siphon all of the wort out of the mash tun. Your efficiency will go way up.

One thing to note when using this kind of pickup tube is that you should fill the MLT up with water then run some out of the ball valve before adding your grains. This will get any air out of the line and keep you from having a stuck sparge.

jdoiv said:

I you have a false bottom now, you don't really need the ss braid on the end of the easy masher. You really want a pickup tube that is solid all the way to the bottom of the convex. This will siphon all of the wort out of the mash tun. Your efficiency will go way up.

One thing to note when using this kind of pickup tube is that you should fill the MLT up with water then run some out of the ball valve before adding your grains. This will get any air out of the line and keep you from having a stuck sparge.

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Good to know, jdoiv. Would there be a diagram or DIY for the pickup tube? I would want to make sure I do it correctly. Would it be okay to make the tube with a brass elbow or something? I guess I figured that the problem with my efficiency wasn't leaving the 3 gallons of wort in the deadspace, but the fact that that deadspace prevented maximum contact of the strike water with my grains.

Well, have you measured the amount of water under the false bottom? You may get some dilution of the enzymes which would slow down the conversion if it is alot. You could always recirculate to move the liquid through the mash to help speed conversion up, but it shouldn't hurt efficiency if you are getting full conversion during your mash.

If it were me, I would fill the bottom of the mash tun with water up to the bottom of the false bottom, then add in my measured amount of strike water on top of that. I would shoot for a low 1 or 1.2qt/lb ratio and then recirculate to get good conversion. Test with a iodine test at 60 minutes. If not full converted, test every 15 minutes after until you reach full conversion. Then sparge until you hit your volume. If you know the amount of liquid under the false bottom, you can subtract that amount from you sparge water if you are batch sparging.

I have about a half a gallon of liquid under my false bottom and I don't count it as part of my strike water. It's not enough to dilute the enzymes, but it would if it were a lot more.

I make a practice of doing the iodine test to see if conversion is complete. If the iodine is an orangish yellow color when in contact with the wort, that means the conversion is complete, right? If so, I've always converted. I can even get plenty of wort. The problem is that my overall gravity is low by about .010 (this was on a beer with a projected OG of 1.092 and I hit 1.081 or so). When I scooped all of the spent grain from my MLT, I did find wort up to the dead space left over, though I kept that for starters. If I use a dip tube, will that help improve efficiency?

I'm trying to figure out if my bad efficiency is due to lack of contact of water to grain or if that strike water immersing the grain is diluted because of my 3 gallon deadspace. If it's a matter of retrieving all of the wort in the deadspace and boiling it down, then that's an easier thing to do.

Well getting all the liquid out is going to help your efficiency, so pickup tube will certainly help matters. If there is 3 gallons of wort at the bottom, I'm guessing it has a fairly high sugar content. Did you take a reading of this wort?

Also, when you measure your strike water, are you counting this 3 gallons that is beow the mash tun? If so, you are getting a very stiff mash and this will hurt efficiency as much of the sugar will stay in the grain husk and not be viscous enough to come out easily.

As far as big beers go, you will take a hit of efficiency with them unless you do an extended sparge and boil to get all the sugar out. Most people just toss some extra grain in and don't worry about it since they don't want to boil 30 gallons down to get 10 gallons of wort.

What was the efficiency on this big beer? What is it like on a session beer (~1.054)?

Also, are you batch sparging or fly sparging? You would take a pretty big hit leaving that much under there if you were fly sparging. It probably wouldn't be as bad if your batch sparging, but still significant.

I do 6 gallon batches and make sure to include the 3 gallon deadspace amount to my total strike water. I prefer to do a flysparge, but now that you mention it, I don't know if I took a reading on that extra 3 gallons, so that may have been the issue. Given what you know, would you recommend I set up a manifold or a mesh screen? Or simply try to get my false bottom to set as close to the deadspace as possible? I'm sure that could be done, along with setting up a diptube to get that extra wort.

Which leads me to ask if I can use copper for my diptube and simply use some materials from my local hardware store?