First lager - didnt make a starter - now what?

So I know I screwed up, just wondering what my best option is? I have always done IPA's, stouts, ales, etc and never did a starter and had good luck. I attempted the same to make a lager in my new fermentation fridge and brewpi setup. I chilled with a wort chiller to 75°, placed it in the fridge and allowed it to drop to 70° over a couple hours. Pitched a single package of liquid WLP800 per the instructions but after doing some more research I see that is not advised. I allowed it to cool throughout the night down to 52.5°. That was Saturday, 8/6/16. It's now Tuesday 8/9/16 and there is no discernible fermentation going on based specific gravity (1.05) or on the air lock activity. One interesting thing is that the temperature fluctuations in the fridge seem to be causing the air lock to reverse half of the day. The beer warms a few degrees in the day time but as it cools at night the fermenter has a slight negative pressure. I need to tweak the brewpi a bit to lessen the beer fluctuation but as it is, it's only a few degrees.

Should I immediately pitch another package or two of WLP800 in the essence of time, or get a package and make a starter, wait for that to take off and pitch the starter into the wort? Or is there something else I should try?

I wouldn't wait for a starter, the yeast are already active and moving along and two packs is far too little small a cell count for a lager. I'd figure out how much more yeast you need and then go and get some dry lager yeast that best matches and dump that in.

Sounds good. I'll use the calculator to figure out the qty. Why dry over liquid? And how do you go about finding a comparable yeast to WLP800?

Thanks

Your post doesn't state the number of gallons. But I'm guessing 5 gallons? After 3 days your should seem some gravity change with one vial. You can give it a few more days

Sorry. It is a 5 gallon batch in a 15 gallon conical. Lots of head space but this has never been in issue with my previous ales.

The yeast are probably still trying to multiply in order to eat the sugar. Will definitely have to do a D rest for that batch. That yeast strain will throw diacetyl readily.

You have a 15 gallon conical fermenter, but don't understand the most basic aspects of the need for a starter or differences in cell count in liquid vs. dry yeast? Wow.

g-star said:

You have a 15 gallon conical fermenter, but don't understand the most basic aspects of the need for a starter or differences in cell count in liquid vs. dry yeast? Wow.

Click to expand...

Gotta start somewhere. Didn't see the point in buying something I was going to outgrow.

The sample I pulled last night sat on the counter all night and was definitely fermenting as of this morning. Going to grab some yeast at lunch and pitch it in. Thanks for all of your help. Sorry if the size of my equipment offended any of you

Simple advice is to just let it ferment out. The yeast will multiply enough to ferment it. Not optimal but you at least learned something. If anything you can use this batch to collect alot of yeast to reuse and pitch proper amounts next time.

g-star said:

You have a 15 gallon conical fermenter, but don't understand the most basic aspects of the need for a starter or differences in cell count in liquid vs. dry yeast? Wow.

Click to expand...

Perhaps providing some constructive feedback instead of being insulting would actually be of benefit, no one likes a troll. Further, he didn't make mention the difference in cell count between various packagings of yeast.

To the OP, I suggested dry yeast because it is generally cheaper than liquid yeast, if you don't care about the money then buy up a bunch of liquid yeast packs. You can look up on the web for yeast comparison charts that might help you find a dry equivalent of the yeast you used or you can look up the flavor profile of the yeast you used and then look up what the common dry yeast flavor profiles are and find one that sounds compatible.

This far in though, you are already going to have certain things set in the beer and tossing a bunch of extra yeast is throwing good money after bad. Like another post stated, this batch may be nothing more than a learning experience and provide a nice big pitch of lager yeast for your next go. Good luck.

I know it's sacrilege but I've underpitched a lager at 85F before crashing down to 55F overnight and letting it sit for 2 weeks before bumping up to 70F+ for another couple weeks. White labs Oktoberfest.

One of the best beers I've ever made! Don't worry and let it ride out!

casualbrewer said:

Simple advice is to just let it ferment out. The yeast will multiply enough to ferment it. Not optimal but you at least learned something. If anything you can use this batch to collect alot of yeast to reuse and pitch proper amounts next time.

Click to expand...

I agree and I definitely wouldn't add more yeast at this point. It's a lager anyway so you don't have to be in a rush. I'd leave it two weeks in the fermenter and then check the gravity.

I think at one point of time most of us have underpitched a lager..at least...I know I sure did when I made my first one. It still turned out pretty good if that makes you feel any better.

I also made an Oktoberfest a month ago and pitched a single vial of WLP820 which was passed its best by date and after 9 days it started fermenting and the samples tasted decent. Still conditioning at the moment

I've been told lager yeast go slower due to the frementation temps... It was true. I was three days in and just a slight move in gravity, LHBS owner soothed my concerns. Wait, and give it time, she was right.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I think I've decided to just let it ride and see what happens. Still no bubbles in the air lock. I'm hesitant to take too many samples because I don't want to waste the beer. Ill probably check it tomorrow if it still looks the same. The one thing that is really bugging me is that the air lock consistently shows that the fermenter is at a lower pressure than the fridge. Yes, the beer temp is rising and falling a degree or so, but I would expect negative pressure while cooling and positive pressure while heating. It always appears to be in negative pressure relative to the fridge at all times! Anyone have a rational explanation for this? I've got nothing.

Here is the chart of the temp over the last couple days.

Let it go for a bit more. You under pitched by a good deal but it should get going. And airlock activity isn't always a good indication of activity.you have a ton of headspace also which will take a bit to fill up anyway.

Bensiff said:

Perhaps providing some constructive feedback instead of being insulting would actually be of benefit, no one likes a troll. Further, he didn't make mention the difference in cell count between various packagings of yeast.

Click to expand...

His response to a previous comment implied he didn’t know about the large difference in cell count between dry/liquid yeast.

As for the rest, I stand by my comments. 15gal SS fermenter, brew pi software….but zero understanding of even the most rudimentary aspects of good fermentation?? That is stunning. Learn to crawl before you try for that marathon. Sorry if the truth hurts your feelings.

Where did I say it was SS? It's actually plastic and relatively inexpensive so I'm not sure why you are so amazed with it. Brewpi software is free by the way and I had the hardware lying around. If that's what you're considering a marathon, perhaps it is for some but that stuff is basic for me. When learning something new you start with the most basic scenario and make one change at a time which is exactly what I've been doing. I started with an extract kit a few years ago and have been consistently making one change at a time, learning, and stepping it up,that way if I screw something up, I'll know what it is. The change I made on this batch was the fact that it's a lager. And indeed I screwed it up, and I know exactly what I did wrong. Perfect reason for making one change at a time. Very to easy to figure out the problem. I have always fully expected to eventually get into making starters and harvesting my yeast, as well as making all grain batches, just haven't gotten there yet. So what is so wrong with that methodology? And yes, I am aware of the difference in cell count. I asked the question because I wasn't sure if that was the ONLY reason it was being suggested. I thought there may have been some other reason and I wanted to be sure. What I was getting at was that if that was the only reason, I would rather pitch a larger quantity of liquid yeast to stay consistent with what I had already pitched and because, I don't want to change more than one variable at a time. Liquid is what I'm familiar with for now. So yes, I am very much crawling, no marathons in sight. My method of learning is different than yours, deal with it.

g-star said:

His response to a previous comment implied he didn’t know about the large difference in cell count between dry/liquid yeast.

As for the rest, I stand by my comments. 15gal SS fermenter, brew pi software….but zero understanding of even the most rudimentary aspects of good fermentation?? That is stunning. Learn to crawl before you try for that marathon. Sorry if the truth hurts your feelings.

Click to expand...

You disagree with how someone wants to enter a hobby, judge them for it, and declare your way the "truth." Interesting. Doesn't do much to help people feel welcome into the homebrew community.

OP, sounds like you are taking good advantage of your knowledge of electronics and what you have available. Good to see how much you are learning from one batch. Keep posting and some of us will keep trying to help you on your way as all of us got to where we are at from no shortage of others willing to help.

Just an update. I let it go and on Friday night, 6 days in, it finally started bubbling so I decided there was no point in taking another sample at that point. Today, Sunday, we are 8 days in and it's bubbling pretty good. About a bubble ever 4 or 5 seconds. Thanks for the help and for giving me some hope for this batch.

Just did my first lager 3 weeks ago and it took 36 goes to start. Freaked me out since ale yeasts will start 8 hours after pitching. I say if it is fermenting, leave it be.

Wow, just saw all the hate between when I read the thread and entered my post. I am always surprised by the "truth" from internet posts. I love my 2 one gallon fermenters to make great beer. I hope your 15 gallon conical works out great for you. Sometimes I wonder if the haters even brew.

n8huntsman said:

Just an update. I let it go and on Friday night, 6 days in, it finally started bubbling

Click to expand...

AZCoolerBrewer said:

Just did my first lager 3 weeks ago and it took 36 goes to start.

Click to expand...

If the proper amount of healthy yeast is pitched with adequate oxygenation, lagers should be active in 8-12hrs and going strong by 24hrs. 3-6 day lag times are indicative of major problems.

All my previous brews, non-lagers of course, were going strong in 24 hours despite the lack of a starter. I now know the huge difference that the temp makes. I do oxygenate with a 2 micron stone and oxygen tank. At least I got that part right. Live and learn. Hopefully it's at least drinkable. I was gonna work on all grain next, but I think now I'll focus on the yeast first and do a few more extract batches. I bought a smaller, 7.9 gallon, fermenter since I think this one is going to need to sit for a while. Fermentation chamber is only big enough for one at a time though so I'll keep it to one lager and one ale. Now I can ramp up my learning curve.

Just do a nice long rest at like 65 degrees near the end and you should be ok. Will help clean up whatever off flavors may have been created by the under pitch.

I made a steam lager this weekend. I pitched yeast on 8/14/2016 around 7pm at around 75 degrees. Over night it got down to around 55 degrees and I'm really not seeing any bubbles. 1 every couple of minutes. Based on this thread it seems like I should just wait and be good go, right? Don't add any more yeast?

bhabermann said:

I made a steam lager this weekend. I pitched yeast on 8/14/2016 around 7pm at around 75 degrees. Over night it got down to around 55 degrees and I'm really not seeing any bubbles. 1 every couple of minutes. Based on this thread it seems like I should just wait and be good go, right? Don't add any more yeast?

Click to expand...

Beer, like fishing, requires patience. The yeast will move at their own speed, some of which seems to be really slow (especially lagers.) Let it ride!

Considering your lager yeast is working in cool environment, fermentation in general and the first signs of activity will be somewhat delayed over what you may be used to in an ale with higher ferm temps.

Yeast, when stressed, tends to throw some flavors that can be a good thing or a bad thing. In the case of a clean lager, this is considered a bad thing. In the case of a Hefeweisen, stressed yeast throws esters and phenols, and this is a good thing to many brewers. So, yeast management can vary according to your beer and your goals.

So, what do you do now? First and foremost, temperature stability is key in a lager. Give this beer some time considering it is probably stressed trying to build a yeast count. Personally, I'd give your lager a few more days at 50F than you may have planned. Then, go up slightly toward 65F for your D-Rest where fermentation will be more active and finish up and hopefully clean itself of some unwanted flavors. Cold crashing in your fermenter and adding some gelatin finings is a technique I employee.

If I may suggest, take a look Brulosophy and read their take on lager beers. Lagers can be very rewarding but also very tricky. Temp control and proper yeast management will reward you with a clean lager.

casualbrewer said:

Just do a nice long rest at like 65 degrees near the end and you should be ok. Will help clean up whatever off flavors may have been created by the under pitch.

Click to expand...

It bubbled since day 6. but bubbles in the airlock subsided two days ago, on day 9. We are now at day 11. I pulled a sample and it's down to 1.021 from 1.05. Expected fg is 1.012 so Im right at 75%. I peaked under the lid and there is a lot of krausen still floating on top. I'm thinking I might begin to raise the temp to 65 over the next three days. And let it sit at 65 for an additional 3 to clean up and finish, before I cold crash it down to 35. Does it sound too early to begin that?

Do a search on bubbles - they don't really mean anything beyond initial vigorous fermentation.

I would definitely let it start warming up. Since you have concerns about off flavors, I'd give it a couple of weeks at 70f. 3 days is probably not enough...

bhabermann said:

I made a steam lager this weekend. I pitched yeast on 8/14/2016 around 7pm at around 75 degrees. Over night it got down to around 55 degrees and I'm really not seeing any bubbles. 1 every couple of minutes. Based on this thread it seems like I should just wait and be good go, right? Don't add any more yeast?

Click to expand...

Pitching warm and then cooling down 20+ degrees is like slamming the brakes on the yeast when they are struggling to get acclimated to the wort and start doing their thing. Bad practice.

For lagers, the best approach is to use the Narziss method of cooling your wort to about 45F, oxygenating, then pitching cold slurry. Allow the beer to free rise to about 50F and hold it there until you're about 75% trough fermentation. Then raise to about 60F to finish up.

g-star said:

For lagers, the best approach is...

Click to expand...

That's a pretty bold general statement. A lot of conventional wisdom has been and continues to be debunked. I think most agree the method he used was not ideal, but stating that there is a single best approach for every lager regardless of equipment and desired characteristics is a stretch.

n8huntsman said:

It bubbled since day 6. but bubbles in the airlock subsided two days ago, on day 9. We are now at day 11. I pulled a sample and it's down to 1.021 from 1.05. Expected fg is 1.012 so Im right at 75%. I peaked under the lid and there is a lot of krausen still floating on top. I'm thinking I might begin to raise the temp to 65 over the next three days. And let it sit at 65 for an additional 3 to clean up and finish, before I cold crash it down to 35. Does it sound too early to begin that?

Click to expand...

I would raise the temp closer to 70-72 degrees for D-rest, 65 seems kind of low?

g-star said:

Pitching warm and then cooling down 20+ degrees is like slamming the brakes on the yeast when they are struggling to get acclimated to the wort and start doing their thing. Bad practice.

For lagers, the best approach is to use the Narziss method of cooling your wort to about 45F, oxygenating, then pitching cold slurry. Allow the beer to free rise to about 50F and hold it there until you're about 75% trough fermentation. Then raise to about 60F to finish up.

Click to expand...

There's always next time! I followed the directions on the yeast pack. That was my problem.

I know the bubbles don't mean much but I've read that the rest should be done as the yeast begin to slow down so I'm sure the bubbles are at least an indication of that. Hard to tell if the Krausen is falling because the plastic fermenter is translucent.

I've had it at 70° for about 10 days now. Gravity is now 1.012 and it tastes and smells pretty good. I'm getting a little more optimistic that it will work out. I want to bring it down to lager temps now. I have four options to doing so.
1.) Dump trub out the bottom of the conical and lower the temp.
2.) Leave it on the the trub and lower the temp.
3.) Transfer to my keg, purge, and lower the temp of my fermentation chamber.
4.) Transfer to my keg, purge, and place it in the kegerator.

I've read that I should lager 10° colder than my fermentation temp, which would be about 42°. But.. I've also read to lager 5° colder than serving temp. My kegerator is about 37° . That would mean I should lager at 32°. I'm leaning towards option 4; kegging, purging, and putting in the kegerator.

This one is a train wreck. Yes you can ferment a lager when pitching way too little yeast. Yes you can save it by waiting, doing a d-rest. You can say that someone who invests in a plastic conical with a Brew-pi should have learned more with the research he has done to get to that fermentation setup. (I agree).

The lesson is to read up, learn what it really takes to brew a style correctly and have fun in this hobby.

The good news is that the beer will probably be acceptable. Will it be anywhere near as good as it should have been? I doubt it..

OP - go for option #2.. Slowly.. Ramp the temperature down a degree or two for the next couple of weeks, down to 34F. None of the other options would I do at 10 days. It is not ready for those. You have at least 3 weeks before you should be thinking of a final transfer. Even a few days until I would consider a secondary....

kh54s10 said:

None of the other options would I do at 10 days. It is not ready for those. You have at least 3 weeks before you should be thinking of a final transfer. Even a few days until I would consider a secondary....

Click to expand...

To clarify, I'm 10 days into the diacectyl rest. I wanted a longer rest to help take care of the diacectyl caused by me underpitching the yeast. This beer was brewed on aug 6. I'm 22 days in total.