I know one is liquid and the other one is powder but am I crazy, they both do the same thing right? And I have 2 more questions. I have a recipe that requires Termamyl and AMG-300 (picobrew Zymatic GF recipe). It says to use Termamyl before the gelatinization and then use AMG-300 L when mashing. Is this too much? and the last question. If your using malted grains why still use any of these products? I bough a kit from glutenfreehomebrewing and I got Fantastic Floyd's IPA Kit (all grain) and in the instructions it says to use AMG-300L so I was not sure why since all grains were malted.
Termamyl vs bsg amylase enzyme ??
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glutarded-chris
Well-Known Member
The natural enzymes are not as strong as the ones in barley and the gelatinization temperature is higher than barley. Bringing the mash to gelatinization temp denatures the natural enzymes further. So we add more enzymes.
In barley brewing you sometimes use additional enzymes with high amounts of adjuncts like wheat. Same reason. The enzyme i use is actually intended to help convert adjuncts in barley brewing.
In barley brewing you sometimes use additional enzymes with high amounts of adjuncts like wheat. Same reason. The enzyme i use is actually intended to help convert adjuncts in barley brewing.
They do the same thing, but they do it at different temperatures...and so are usefull for difrent things.
Termamyl is only partially working at normal mash temps, its activity is highest around 90 degrees C (quite close to boiling). This high temperature tolerance is handy because the amylase aids in starch gelatinization and liquification during a cerial cooking step on nonmalted grains. Normal (BSG) amylase would be denatured at these high temperatures.
The BSG product is probably (I didnt look it up) most active at or near normal mash temps. It is probably a better choice for suplementing amylase levels in a 150 F single infusion mash. Termamyl would have low activity at these temperatures.
These products do technicaly do the same thing, but because their optimal temperatures and maximum temperatures are so different, they are not interchangable.
Termamyl is only partially working at normal mash temps, its activity is highest around 90 degrees C (quite close to boiling). This high temperature tolerance is handy because the amylase aids in starch gelatinization and liquification during a cerial cooking step on nonmalted grains. Normal (BSG) amylase would be denatured at these high temperatures.
The BSG product is probably (I didnt look it up) most active at or near normal mash temps. It is probably a better choice for suplementing amylase levels in a 150 F single infusion mash. Termamyl would have low activity at these temperatures.
These products do technicaly do the same thing, but because their optimal temperatures and maximum temperatures are so different, they are not interchangable.
Thanks for that info, I am having a hard time getting Termamyl anywhere, a lot of places are sold out and I got one from LAbrew and it was expired so I am looking for alternatives.
As for malted grains, should I only need AMG-300L I guess? I would imagine I would need Termamyl and AMG-300L for unmalted.
As for malted grains, should I only need AMG-300L I guess? I would imagine I would need Termamyl and AMG-300L for unmalted.
The need for a high temperature step and Termamyl is much greater with non malted grains, Although there are people on this forum that are having sucess with this.
With malted grains the need for a prolonged high temp rest is much less(making Termamyl unnessassarry) Many people make great beer with malted grains and a single infusion mash suplemented with a bit of amylase? You could use AMG300 for this. AMG300 is very agressive, I have made some excessivly dry beers with it, be sure not to add too much for too long.
With malted grains the need for a prolonged high temp rest is much less(making Termamyl unnessassarry) Many people make great beer with malted grains and a single infusion mash suplemented with a bit of amylase? You could use AMG300 for this. AMG300 is very agressive, I have made some excessivly dry beers with it, be sure not to add too much for too long.
glutarded-chris
Well-Known Member
Legume,
I have been focused on improving efficiency and my AG batches have been finishing really low lately depending on the yeast, 1.006 to 1.008. Do you think if I cut back on the enzyme load that I would possibly strike a better balance between conversion to sugar and attenuation? Never even considered that I might be causing the over attenuation.
Chris
I have been focused on improving efficiency and my AG batches have been finishing really low lately depending on the yeast, 1.006 to 1.008. Do you think if I cut back on the enzyme load that I would possibly strike a better balance between conversion to sugar and attenuation? Never even considered that I might be causing the over attenuation.
Chris
Chris
The alpha amylase (Termamyl) is unlikely to be drying out your beer as much as the beta amylase.
If you add seperate additions of alpha and beta, you might shorten the time of the rest where your beta amylase is present.
The alpha amylase (Termamyl) is unlikely to be drying out your beer as much as the beta amylase.
If you add seperate additions of alpha and beta, you might shorten the time of the rest where your beta amylase is present.
jmitchell3
Well-Known Member
Yeah ive had the same problem....my last gf batch finished at 1.004! My preboil gravity was 1.037 on 7.25 gallons and 14lb of grain (8 lb millet malt, 3 lb of flaked corn and 3 lb flaked oats)
It is easy to over do it with AMG-300, resulting in overly dry beer.
Try reducing the quantity of beta amylase (AMG300), or the amount of time it is in the mash.
Its not available in homebrew scale quantities (unfortunately) but "SEBamyl L" is much easier to work with. It is not as prone to producing excessivly fermentable wort.
Try reducing the quantity of beta amylase (AMG300), or the amount of time it is in the mash.
Its not available in homebrew scale quantities (unfortunately) but "SEBamyl L" is much easier to work with. It is not as prone to producing excessivly fermentable wort.
Hello all,
I've been an avid reader for awhile but this is my first post.
I've been working from Igliashon's recommendation of a single infusion mash at normal mash temperatures when using Grouse and Eckert malts. I add both Termamyl and AMG-300 enzymes to assist conversion in the mash, but I can't seem to get more than 50% Mash/lauter efficiency. Even with a 2 hour mash rest (@ 152F). Has anyone had any success reaching a higher efficiency? Say higher than 65%? I'm spending an arm and a leg on malts and increasing my efficiency to the low 70s would help immensely.
I assume it could be one of a few factors: the milling of the malts, the enzyme concentrations in the mash, pH of mash, or the temp at which the enzymes are added. Any thoughts?
Cheers!
I've been an avid reader for awhile but this is my first post.
I've been working from Igliashon's recommendation of a single infusion mash at normal mash temperatures when using Grouse and Eckert malts. I add both Termamyl and AMG-300 enzymes to assist conversion in the mash, but I can't seem to get more than 50% Mash/lauter efficiency. Even with a 2 hour mash rest (@ 152F). Has anyone had any success reaching a higher efficiency? Say higher than 65%? I'm spending an arm and a leg on malts and increasing my efficiency to the low 70s would help immensely.
I assume it could be one of a few factors: the milling of the malts, the enzyme concentrations in the mash, pH of mash, or the temp at which the enzymes are added. Any thoughts?
Cheers!
glutarded-chris
Well-Known Member
I have experimented with complicated step mash and single infusion profiles and have settled on a simple two step process. I think for gluten free malted grains, it is beneficial to have a gelatinization step. It just works. Some of my experience is documented in this post:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=587468
I just chill some mash water in an ice bath ahead of time. First infusion brings the mash up to gelatinization temp high 160's to 170F. Stay there for a few minutes, up to 15 minutes to gelatinize the mash. Then start adding the pre-chilled mash water to bring down the mash temp to 140F to 150F where the enzymes are comfortable. I have been using diatase enzyme from E.C. Kraus but there are other options for enzymes.
Not sure if it is necessary, but my practice has been to chill two jugs of mash water for the second infusion. One jug with a quart or so of mash water with the enzymes mixed in so that the enzymes have a chance to mix evenly throughout the mash. The other jug is just mash water. When it comes time to chill the mash, first i add a portion of the pure chilled mash water to bring the temperature down close to where the enzymes are comortable and don't denature. Then I add the chilled enzyme water. Then I add more pure chilled mash water to hit the desired mash temperature.
Sounds complicated but it is super simple. First strike water addition hits getalinization temp and then you bring down the temp with chilled enzyme water for a second long rest. Let the second rest go until the gravity is about 1.050 and begin extracting and sparging. A healthy sparge increases the yield but requires extra boiling to get back to desired gravity. You have to hit your balance of grain cost to brew day boiling time.
Anyway, that is my two cents worth.
Chris
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=587468
I just chill some mash water in an ice bath ahead of time. First infusion brings the mash up to gelatinization temp high 160's to 170F. Stay there for a few minutes, up to 15 minutes to gelatinize the mash. Then start adding the pre-chilled mash water to bring down the mash temp to 140F to 150F where the enzymes are comfortable. I have been using diatase enzyme from E.C. Kraus but there are other options for enzymes.
Not sure if it is necessary, but my practice has been to chill two jugs of mash water for the second infusion. One jug with a quart or so of mash water with the enzymes mixed in so that the enzymes have a chance to mix evenly throughout the mash. The other jug is just mash water. When it comes time to chill the mash, first i add a portion of the pure chilled mash water to bring the temperature down close to where the enzymes are comortable and don't denature. Then I add the chilled enzyme water. Then I add more pure chilled mash water to hit the desired mash temperature.
Sounds complicated but it is super simple. First strike water addition hits getalinization temp and then you bring down the temp with chilled enzyme water for a second long rest. Let the second rest go until the gravity is about 1.050 and begin extracting and sparging. A healthy sparge increases the yield but requires extra boiling to get back to desired gravity. You have to hit your balance of grain cost to brew day boiling time.
Anyway, that is my two cents worth.
Chris
Thanks Chris. Looks straight forward enough. I'll give it a shot.
Do you find the two-step mash yields a clearer wort? I've been having trouble with cloudy mash/wort also. I suspect it's caused by an incomplete conversion of the starches in the mash.
Do you find the two-step mash yields a clearer wort? I've been having trouble with cloudy mash/wort also. I suspect it's caused by an incomplete conversion of the starches in the mash.
glutarded-chris
Well-Known Member
My extracted wart is always very cloudy and sort of white colored. I use a voile bag and just pull the bag rather than a proper mash tun so i cannot vorlauf and set a filter bed before extracting. It changes quickly with the boil. It all drops out quickly in the primary. You get extra trub but the end product after conditioning is crystal clear.
Lefou
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From Post #2 ...
In barley brewing you sometimes use additional enzymes with high amounts of adjuncts like wheat.
No. Wheat isn't just an adjunct.
It can be, but in certain styles, it's THE major base malt ingredient in wheat beers.
Malted wheat sometimes has a comparatively higher diastatic power than many other grains. Lightly kilned malted wheats of lower Lovibond rating can actually have a higher alpha amylase content than barley Pilsners. An infusion mash of 50/50 malted wheat to Pilsner settling around 145F using amylase to increase fermentability can result in a quicker conversion, faster ferments, and drier beers.
I know - I've used this process to make dry ales that have successfully gone beyond software calculated final fermentation gravities, and the data I refer to is taken straight from the Briess product data sheets.
In barley brewing you sometimes use additional enzymes with high amounts of adjuncts like wheat.
No. Wheat isn't just an adjunct.
It can be, but in certain styles, it's THE major base malt ingredient in wheat beers.
Malted wheat sometimes has a comparatively higher diastatic power than many other grains. Lightly kilned malted wheats of lower Lovibond rating can actually have a higher alpha amylase content than barley Pilsners. An infusion mash of 50/50 malted wheat to Pilsner settling around 145F using amylase to increase fermentability can result in a quicker conversion, faster ferments, and drier beers.
I know - I've used this process to make dry ales that have successfully gone beyond software calculated final fermentation gravities, and the data I refer to is taken straight from the Briess product data sheets.
Chris, not sure you saw, but I have been monitoring and stopping fermentation when things get between 1.012 and 1.018. My last batch is a little sweet at 1.015 but for the style its good (NE IPA) and the beer has good mouth feel (best batch yet) and the head lasts a few minutes like a normal beer.
I used US-05, liquid Termamyl and powdered LD Carlson Amylase (SEBAml).
Somehow I am thinking, keep focusing on efficiency but just stop fermentation earlier?
I do this by occasional hydrometer sampling, say day 5, and being as sanitary as possible. Once hit my number I rack to a corny keg and chill it. The last batch was still actively fermenting by the way, I just put the yeast to sleep via refrigeration
glutarded-chris
Well-Known Member
Hi Mergs,
I did see your other post and am considering trying that. Never thought about cold crashing so early in the fermentation, but it makes sense that it could work. My fermentation fridge is on the fritz so it may take me some time to try it!
Chris
I did see your other post and am considering trying that. Never thought about cold crashing so early in the fermentation, but it makes sense that it could work. My fermentation fridge is on the fritz so it may take me some time to try it!
Chris
KeinGluten
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If using malted grains, the added enzymes aren't strictly necessary. The way around the high gelatinization temperature is to rest at a low mash temperature (something like a protein rest), then draw off some liquid from the mash and cool it. While it's cooling, bring the mash up above gelatinization temperature (can just boil it), then let it cool and add back the decanted liquid to bring it to your desired mash temperature. The idea is that you decant amylase enzymes so they don't denature while you gelatinize the starches, then add them back to convert the now available starches.
I've been using the process described here: http://www.glutenfreehomebrewing.org/lavery_brewing_tutorial.php
along with my own malted millet with relative success. However I've been recently wondering if the process can perhaps be simplified to just one low temperature rest, and skip the initial "partial conversion rest", but I will have to experiment.
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