Upgrading the brew shed - adding 240v - go 30amps or 50amps?

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cannman

cannman

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Hi everyone!

I'm planning on having the brew shed upgraded by the end of summer but I'm formulating the budget, making supply lists, looking at sub-panels, and thinking about my brewing future.

ONE DAY (I'm thinking within 5 years), I would love to have a 1bbl+ system running on electric. Right now I use propane and IMHO propane is much more expensive than electric. Also within 10 years we look to go solar, and the draw from the brew shed's ferm temp controls, glycol chiller, freezer chests, etc. will need to be taken into account. I also want to install an instant tankless water heater that also runs 240v.

The topic of the night is: when moving to 240v, should I go 30amp or 50amp? Since I've got the walls removed anyway, should I install both a 30 port and a 50 port?

There's always reality and maybe I stick doing 10 gal batches but I want to go full control panel electrical brewing? What is the setup that will prepare me for any upgrade? Whatever is done can't be detrimental to our solar upgrade...

Thanks everyone!
 
ChuckO said:
If the shed is detached and stand-alone, go with a 100 amp sub panel in the shed. You can split off anything that you want.
Click to expand...

A plan of this nature is what will be implemented. But If i'm going this route and adding a bunch of just in case ports, what else might I need?
 
I don't know if I'd add 100a that's a lot of capacity. I'd day run 70a out there maybe 80a. You run anything beyond that and it can be very tough getting the wire into your existing panel, depending on it you only have a signal panel inside or if you also have a trailer panel outside. As for the shed I would add wire for 50a and if you only need 30a, which is #10awg then you'll already have your #8awg wire in place. I would also run dedicated lines for my freezers or at least limit the capacity to only 12.5a per 20a circuit. Whatever the amperage you combine on a circuit, meaning anything that "might" actually run for 3hrs or more like freezers, glycol and all, multiply the combined amperage by 125%, and never go over 75-80% of your circuits capacity. Other than that I don't know what you'd need but I do know a lot of things are going wireless or at least plugged into a router. You might want to consider a CAT 5 cable for future use.
 
Oh and if you are asking what you'd need material wise. Panel with main breaker, cable from old panel to new, connectors or PCV depending on what you run and how you run it, romex for general purpose outlets and lights, plastic or two screw connectors, staples, receptacles and switches, plastic boxes, covers for devices, light fixture, maybe a ground rod, at least a two gang box for the 30 or 50 amp outlet and personally I might buy a deep 4" square box for that (one that mounts on the side of a stub via a built in bracket). Oh and you might want to consider an a/c that heats and cools, those are normally 220v.
 
If you are 100% committed to going solar for your power supply I would stick with propane. Large current draws like an electric heating element are hard on solar systems.
 
Amps are such a thing it's never too many.
I live in the 220V world, take it from me: you will always know what to do with some spare few amps.
 
I would go with a 100A sub panel if you are able and a 50A if at all possible. Look at prices for wire and panels too, you may find deals this time of year that may entice you one way or the other.
 
JosephN said:
Oh and if you are asking what you'd need material wise. Panel with main breaker, cable from old panel to new, connectors or PCV depending on what you run and how you run it, romex for general purpose outlets and lights, plastic or two screw connectors, staples, receptacles and switches, plastic boxes, covers for devices, light fixture, maybe a ground rod, at least a two gang box for the 30 or 50 amp outlet and personally I might buy a deep 4" square box for that (one that mounts on the side of a stub via a built in bracket). Oh and you might want to consider an a/c that heats and cools, those are normally 220v.
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Ha. My electrician already told me to start digging the trench.

What I'd really like is kilowatt meter on the sub-panel. This way I know how much of my hobby is killing the electric bill. We upgraded to 100% led and HE Washer and Dryer and run a 4 bedroom house, dishwasher, wine cooler, and frig for under $50 a month. :rockin: Plus this will also help me figure how much solar we need one day.

Below is the shed. It's three panel but I'm building a swinging bard door this summer with some brew buddies who labor in a wood shop. Once the electrical gets run (it currently only has 1 20 amp running a few lights and that refrigerator on the right), I'd set up the ports/outlet right on the wall, insulate, white board or dry wall, and call it a day.

attachment.php
 
Yeah the trench will be helpful. I don't know if your electrician is a friend of random contractor but being one myself I would love having a ditch dug to help my customers save money, but I don't mind digging one either. Also screw the wiring, check out those mountains in the background. I'm an avid runner and when j see mountains I crave sooo badly to conquer them. Looks like the Rockies.
 
JosephN said:
Yeah the trench will be helpful. I don't know if your electrician is a friend of random contractor but being one myself I would love having a ditch dug to help my customers save money, but I don't mind digging one either. Also screw the wiring, check out those mountains in the background. I'm an avid runner and when j see mountains I crave sooo badly to conquer them. Looks like the Rockies.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the view comments. You're welcome to come brew here any time.

My electrician is the boyfriend of an ex coworker who used to write me letters of recommendation. He also rewired my rental property and fixed the bad wiring the insurance company did at my current brewing property. He's cutting me a labor deal for beer.

One of the things SWMBO inforces is that everything must be code and legal. So I'll spare no expense in this department.

Here are some photos I took for your mountain running self. Also last nights sunset in original (pink) and color corrected (Orange).

These guys run through my back yard: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badwater_Ultramarathon



View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1463342107.409940.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1463342123.670246.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1463342147.070141.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1463342158.329057.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1463342169.730587.jpg
 
if you are digging your own trench and going the code-compliant route, make sure it is deep enough. direct-buried cable will need to be 24" deep, conductors in pvc conduit will need to be 18" deep and conductors in rigid/intermediate conduit only needs to be 6" deep. note this does not include emt but rather true conduit (the threaded stuff). there are a few funky exceptions to these rules but i don't think any of them will apply to your situation.
 
itsnotrequired said:
if you are digging your own trench and going the code-compliant route, make sure it is deep enough. direct-buried cable will need to be 24" deep, conductors in pvc conduit will need to be 18" deep and conductors in rigid/intermediate conduit only needs to be 6" deep. note this does not include emt but rather true conduit (the threaded stuff). there are a few funky exceptions to these rules but i don't think any of them will apply to your situation.
Click to expand...


Thanks! He did brief me on the depths, and we decided on pvc because of the potential to use the trench to bring electricity to other location in the future: RV port, greenhouse. Given that, I was not able to commit it to memory as I was knee deep in Pliny
 
WI_Wino said:
If you are 100% committed to going solar for your power supply I would stick with propane. Large current draws like an electric heating element are hard on solar systems.
Click to expand...

We wouldn't be 100% off the grid. My thinking was either
1) come brew day we could literally "switch" to utility power (They install some sort of bypass right? I mean, how do you live when you need to service the panels?)

2) Draw the energy that the solar can provide and when it is exhausted, the system will just jump over to utility.

Are you saying long draws are "hard" on the solar system as in shortens the life expectancy?

:mug:
 
JosephN said:
Oh yeah I know all about badwater. Ive wanted to run that for the past 8 years. My close friend is running the Badwater 146 this summer. That's basically badwater but you don't stop halfway up Mt Whitney. He said he had to get a hiking permit for that extra distance. I've also applied to run the Western States 100 up in Squaw Valley for the past 6 years, but I've never made it in. I'm headed to India in 2.5 weeks and I'll be there for 3 weeks while the temps remains 85-106F, and I'm hoping to get some running in with some of the children in the rural villages I'll be witnessing to.

Now back to beer., how in the world do you control you ferm temps in conditions like these? Also long term storage? Do you just keg or bottle also?
Click to expand...

Good stuff with Badwater. Yes, the last 26 miles or so require the permit and from what I understand (it may have changed in the last 5 years, I don't know) there is a lottery every morning for a certain number of passes up the mountain. I'm not sure how many days you would take to complete the marathon, but someone in your running party could make the sit for you.

Take some photos of that running trip in India for us!

~~

Beer: I ferment and serve from freezer chests controlled by the STC-1000/Inkbird. Use 1 freezer chest for Ales, 1 for Lagers, and one for serving (I can store and carbonate up to 8 kegs at a time but only have the equipment to serve from 2 kegs, and that's really the max I can handle even with the buddies coming over.) While I have not brewed at this location, my old location was only 7 miles away, same climate etc. The equipment has always been shaded by a structure (garage, shed, etc) and during the winter, I use my constructed "Ferm Wrap" that you can find instructions for in my signature. Even though the nights freeze for months out here, keeping the equipment shaded, wrapping the carboys up in ferm wrap is all that is needed to keep any ale or lager fermentation temp steady. But it is bloody cold to brew out here in the winter, so much that I called it quits for the season in October. Once the electric is run, I can't wait for that on the spot tankless water heater to warm me back up!

I keg EVERYTHING now. Even if I intend to bottle, I bottle from the keg using a Blichmann Beer Gun. Bottling though is now only as needed and I don't age anything (I can, but aging hasn't been a thing for me... I once aged a bottle of wine for a year and when I had it, I couldn't remember what the first one tasted like, so *shrug*).

:tank:
 
cannman said:
We wouldn't be 100% off the grid. My thinking was either
1) come brew day we could literally "switch" to utility power (They install some sort of bypass right? I mean, how do you live when you need to service the panels?)

2) Draw the energy that the solar can provide and when it is exhausted, the system will just jump over to utility.

Are you saying long draws are "hard" on the solar system as in shortens the life expectancy?

:mug:
Click to expand...

No, I meant it is hard to service that current load with typical residential solar systems. If you are still on the grid you'll be fine. But if you had only battery storage then I would say do the math twice to ensure you have enough storage to service a continuous ~15 amp draw.
 
From my understanding you'd need some super huge solar panels to harness that much energy. Just look up a kit that is designed to power and operate a small light weight gate. I think those run on 12-36v and the panel is small, but it also doesn't give you much amp/current capacity either.
 
cannman said:
We wouldn't be 100% off the grid. My thinking was either
1) come brew day we could literally "switch" to utility power (They install some sort of bypass right? I mean, how do you live when you need to service the panels?)

2) Draw the energy that the solar can provide and when it is exhausted, the system will just jump over to utility.

Are you saying long draws are "hard" on the solar system as in shortens the life expectancy?

:mug:
Click to expand...
I'd say the answer is "hard" to achieve economically.

In general, you can either be grid-tied or off grid; and again in general, if the grid is already connected to your property, grid tied will make the most sense. In a grid tied situation, your solar system is generally just generating a fraction of what you use over all. So when you are using more electricity than your panels provide, you take the extra from the grid, when you are generating more than you are using, the excess goes back to the grid, it isn't really a switching back and forth, it is usually using a bit from both.

(A thing that a lot of people don't know is, in the typical grid-tied system, if the grid goes down, so does your solar system.... for the simple reason that the utility lineman working on the downed grid lines shouldn't have to worry that your little solar array will electrocute him doing his work.)

There are in-between (Bimodal) systems, too, that work as grid-tied when the grid is up, and stand-alone when the grid is down. They add cost in batteries and equipment, and from a financial standpoint it's often better just to have a generator if power outages of substantial length are a concern.

So in short, your energy bills will be good enough for sizing your system. For an off grid install, your system is sized to the loads (electricity needs), for a grid-tied system, sizing is usually a question of: How much can you spend, and how much roof space do you have?
 
If I add a 125amp sub panel, should I increase the house main?? (This seems to make a kinda obvious sense, but you know, I can't take things for granted anymore).

b48fdb5b-6d82-41e8-89bf-da65894f393b_1000.jpg


Close
GE Model # TLM1212CCUP Internet # 202046233 Store SKU # 515883 PowerMark Gold 125 AMP 12-Space 24-Circuit Indoor Main Lug Circuit Breaker Panel
 
I don't understand why was I kind of pushed into getting 30 amps because it matched more exactly. Does it matter if you have more amps then you need. I went with 30 amps which is enough to run the element and a pump.
 
Also bear in mind you need GFCI protection on those brewing equipment circuits. I would also recommend the subpanel with 80 - 100 amps.
 
applescrap said:
I don't understand why was I kind of pushed into getting 30 amps because it matched more exactly. Does it matter if you have more amps then you need. I went with 30 amps which is enough to run the element and a pump.
Click to expand...


From what I understand, if you route the main to the sub panel and then individually restrict the amps, no. If you try and plug a 30 into a 50, without a dogbone converter or the like, yes.
 
Saboral said:
Also bear in mind you need GFCI protection on those brewing equipment circuits. I would also recommend the subpanel with 80 - 100 amps.
Click to expand...

Would I do that at the socket level or the breaker level? Would that depend on the voltage run to a particular port (240vs120)

Calfj60 said:
I have driven up and down the Owens valley my entire life, and have 4 miles of adopt a highway in my moms memory south of Lone Pine
Click to expand...

That's great! The next time I travel south I'll have to pay particular attention. You're welcome to brew here any time!
 
Guys I keep asking myself, "Why wouldn't I go as big as I could afford?" Why would I want to go 80 if I could go 100? or 125? What am I missing here?
 
Well you are missing a hot tub and 3 elements! Jk idk ch1t, i decided ultimately on 30 amp gfci breaker ran to plug. But if you are rocking lights, air cond., stereo, 3 elements, pumps you probably will want a big setup, i didnt want to splash out too much. I figure its like a ball of string then how long do you want it. Dvd player, flat screens, a real sweet shed im jealous now. Fridges, keezers, do it up cheers.
And in case i make no sense to anyone sorry not great with electric understanding
 
applescrap said:
Well you are missing a hot tub and 3 elements! Jk idk ch1t, i decided ultimately on 30 amp gfci breaker ran to plug. But if you are rocking lights, air cond., stereo, 3 elements, pumps you probably will want a big setup, i didnt want to splash out too much. I figure its like a ball of string then how long do you want it. Dvd player, flat screens, a real sweet shed im jealous now. Fridges, keezers, do it up cheers.
And in case i make no sense to anyone sorry not great with electric understanding
Click to expand...

3 freezers (I forget the cubic feet, but 14.7, 11.x, 7.x? Something like that)
1 refrigerator/Freezer
1mini fridg that is used for soda when I do soda, but I usually bring it inside the house.
Lighting (led so whatever)
Computer
Electrical for pumps, etc

Future to behold:
Possible 30 or 50 amp heating element
60 amp tankless water heater.
Tower of Power
Air conditioner or Swamp Cooler
30amp access for my RV
120v 15amp Feed for my future greenhouse

*Shrug* I guess I'll brew beer somewhere in there...
 
I put a 4000 watt (technically 3840) grid tie solar system on the house in 2010 and it's been working quietly eliminating my electric bill ever since. 16 panels is just about right for a single family as long as you heat the house on something else.

It was a decent deal with the Federal 30% tax credit, state credit of $500 and the power company kicked in another $6000. Lots of fun to see the meter run backwards however in my crappy state they don't pay you for any excess you put in. I think in California that have to pay you for excess. So if you go big enough you get a check instead of a bill.
 
Bilsch said:
I put a 4000 watt (technically 3840) grid tie solar system on the house in 2010 and it's been working quietly eliminating my electric bill ever since. 16 panels is just about right for a single family as long as you heat the house on something else.

It was a decent deal with the Federal 30% tax credit, state credit of $500 and the power company kicked in another $6000. Lots of fun to see the meter run backwards however in my crappy state they don't pay you for any excess you put in. I think in California that have to pay you for excess. So if you go big enough you get a check instead of a bill.
Click to expand...

I believe in California, its county based. Our neighbor friend has a sufficient solar system in the negative and he was complaining that he doesn't get a check...
 
cannman said:
3 freezers (I forget the cubic feet, but 14.7, 11.x, 7.x? Something like that)
1 refrigerator/Freezer
1mini fridg that is used for soda when I do soda, but I usually bring it inside the house.
Lighting (led so whatever)
Computer
Electrical for pumps, etc

Future to behold:
Possible 30 or 50 amp heating element
60 amp tankless water heater.
Tower of Power
Air conditioner or Swamp Cooler
30amp access for my RV
120v 15amp Feed for my future greenhouse

*Shrug* I guess I'll brew beer somewhere in there...
Click to expand...

Yep thats what was missing, you need the big big panel it sounds like. Awesome set up im envious
 
cannman said:
If I add a 125amp sub panel, should I increase the house main?? (This seems to make a kinda obvious sense, but you know, I can't take things for granted anymore).

b48fdb5b-6d82-41e8-89bf-da65894f393b_1000.jpg


Close
GE Model # TLM1212CCUP Internet # 202046233 Store SKU # 515883 PowerMark Gold 125 AMP 12-Space 24-Circuit Indoor Main Lug Circuit Breaker Panel
Click to expand...


I need a bump on this :

Do I upgrade the main box too? It's currently at 200 amps and that's the max the box will supply. Hmmm maybe the question to ask is:

How do I measure how many Amps I pull on a regular basis??
 
you should be fine with that 200 amp main service, unless you have some massive home with massive a/c requirements. or run a bunch of other large electrical stuff on a regular basis like welders, air compressors, etc. or have all electric heat or something like that.

for comparison, my home is about 3500 square feet with a/c, electric clothes dryer, electric oven, electric brew panel and electric sauna. everything else is gas. i have a 200 amp service and have no worries about its capacity. that being said, i'm not about to boil wort, dry clothes, bake a turkey and sit in the sauna on a 100 degree day, all at the same time. :tank:
 
itsnotrequired said:
you should be fine with that 200 amp main service, unless you have some massive home with massive a/c requirements. or run a bunch of other large electrical stuff on a regular basis like welders, air compressors, etc. or have all electric heat or something like that.
Click to expand...

On Electric... We have a swamp cooler, dishwasher, refrigerator, clothes washer [he], microwave [1500watt], well pump, and 2 computers that are always on.

On propane: Water heater, stove, clothes dryer[he].

We have two space heaters that pull 1000~1500 watts set at a mild 68 during the winter at night.

Main source of heat is wood burning stove.

Looks like the case is moving that I should be alright :)

itsnotrequired said:
i'm not about to boil wort, dry clothes, bake a turkey and sit in the sauna on a 100 degree day, all at the same time. :tank:
Click to expand...

Well, sir, you're just not trying hard enough ;) :mug:

Thanks for the info!
 
I measured the distance from the panel to the shed.
-tracing the edge of the yard and elbowing over to the shed is 130 feet.
-taking the shortest route, going through the back lawn that has irrigation installed in it: 90 feet.

shaving 40' in cable and pipe that can support 100 amps will save a good chunk of cash that can be used to buy other things for the project.

Is there any problems running cable pipes under the irrigation system code wise?

Thanks everyone.
 

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