RO Water & Bitterness

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theQ

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Hello,

Can you give me some examples of water profiles ?


For my Belgians I am using 6 grams of gypsum and 5.5 of CaCl2 on a 10-11 gallons batch all of that with RO water.

I used the same profile on an IPA but my problem is that when I take a sip of beer the finishing is bitter(on the harsh side). I can see this in some professional brew while others extra hoppy do finish less harsh. Is that a water profile thing or is the hopping schedule. (My hopping for IPAs is usually first wort hopping then additions at 5 and flame-out)


For what is worth I am trying to also play with numbers here to give me a better idea
http://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/


Let me know!
Q
 
Can't be the hops.

That's why I did a first wort hopping to reduce the how harsh the bitterness is. One example is 1oz of Warrior as First Wort then 5 and 0 mins Mosaic for aroma.
 
How reliable is your RO water source? If it is store bought, you may check it with a TDS meter to verify it is in fact RO. It should be less than 50, though I think (could be mistaken) I have seen the range of 30 or less used on this site before.
 
Are you following pH or using any acid? Just wondering if the harshness could be tannins and not bitterness from a high pH.
 
FWH is said to reduce the harshness of bittering hops. But for you to say it can't be the hops because you FWH, well, don't be so sure.

For one, harsh hops, used in excess regardless of FWHing them or not can absolutely result in harsh bitterness.

It is legitimately debatable whether or not FWHing actually reduces hop harshness at all. And I FWH the majority of my beers.
 
Gypsum is adding Sulfate which supposedly can enhance bitterness(I have see theories going either way...), maybe drop the amount or switch chemicals to get the desired water profile.
 
Given the amounts of Gypsum and CaCl added to that water volume, the levels of SO4 and Cl shouldn't be excessive for a pale ale. But might be a little high for some Belgian styles. The amount of Ca added to the RO water should be sufficient to drive down mashing pH to an acceptable level. So I doubt that pH is really an issue.

Are you sure that the bittering level isn't too high? Which bittering equation are you using? Tinseth tends to produce a higher level of bittering in beer compared to Rager.

The other possibility is that you are oversparging the mash and extracting tannins and silicates. I've had to stop my runoff at about 3 brix to avoid that problem and then add water directly to the kettle to get to my desired pre-boil volume.
 
Like already suggested above...how are you adjusting mash pH? what's your target? and do you acidify your sparge water?

Mash (I do full volume) chemistry was one of the ways I reduced tannin harshness. The other was cold steeping dark grains or adding them to the mash at vorlauf
 
Since you are using RO water, it is not necessary to acidify that water since its alkalinity should be near zero. Hopefully, you have checked that RO water and confirmed that its TDS reading is well under 50 ppm?
 
Ritva said:
Wow...thanks for that helpful bit of info there, Chief... Maybe instead of telling one of this communities foremost water experts that they're wrong you offer a reasoned rebuttal. Short of that I'd appreciate it if you just kept your dickish comments to yourself
Click to expand...

Took the words from my mouth....
 
mabrungard said:
Given the amounts of Gypsum and CaCl added to that water volume, the levels of SO4 and Cl shouldn't be excessive for a pale ale. But might be a little high for some Belgian styles. The amount of Ca added to the RO water should be sufficient to drive down mashing pH to an acceptable level. So I doubt that pH is really an issue.

Are you sure that the bittering level isn't too high? Which bittering equation are you using? Tinseth tends to produce a higher level of bittering in beer compared to Rager.

The other possibility is that you are oversparging the mash and extracting tannins and silicates. I've had to stop my runoff at about 3 brix to avoid that problem and then add water directly to the kettle to get to my desired pre-boil volume.
Click to expand...

I did taste the water, it seems "dull" but that's to be expected as there are no minerals in it.

I don't use anything else to control the acidity.

Water profiling is one of the less documented things.

My ph on the batch I brew recently was 4.8 (10g gypsum + 5CaCl) it was an IPA.

Questions:
1. When do I measure the ph, I did after I few good minutes of recirculating
2. I batch sparge, usually 10 minutes while recirculating. The last one I did was 5 mins to extract less tannins will see how turns (did it 2 days ago). What's the best approach to avoid extracting tannin, is time ?


Ps.
I use BeerSmith for most of my recipes formulas.
 
theQ said:
I don't use anything else to control the acidity.
Click to expand...

For some grist profiles, the minerals alone done pull the mash down far enough (usually lighter colored profiles) and acid is needed to put you in the correct pH range.


theQ said:
My ph on the batch I brew recently was 4.8 (10g gypsum + 5CaCl) it was an IPA.
Click to expand...

Was this mash pH or finished wort pH? If it is the mash pH, it is too low. you should be shooting for something around 5.2-5.4

theQ said:
1. When do I measure the ph, I did after I few good minutes of recirculating
Click to expand...
You want to measure the pH ~15 min in the mash. Pull some wort and let it cool (I say let it cool to preserve the life of your pH meter), and check your pH.

theQ said:
2. I batch sparge, usually 10 minutes while recirculating. The last one I did was 5 mins to extract less tannins will see how turns (did it 2 days ago). What's the best approach to avoid extracting tannin, is time ?
Click to expand...

What temp are you batch sparging at? High sparge temps and increased pH are cause for tannin extraction. Since you stated earlier that you do not use anything to control acidity, your mash pH may be elevated. If it is too high, your pH during your sparge may get to the point where tannins are extracted since there wasnt much acidity in the mash to begin with.
 
Natdavis777 said:
For some grist profiles, the minerals alone done pull the mash down far enough (usually lighter colored profiles) and acid is needed to put you in the correct pH range.




Was this mash pH or finished wort pH? If it is the mash pH, it is too low. you should be shooting for something around 5.2-5.4


You want to measure the pH ~15 min in the mash. Pull some wort and let it cool (I say let it cool to preserve the life of your pH meter), and check your pH.



What temp are you batch sparging at? High sparge temps and increased pH are cause for tannin extraction. Since you stated earlier that you do not use anything to control acidity, your mash pH may be elevated. If it is too high, your pH during your sparge may get to the point where tannins are extracted since there wasnt much acidity in the mash to begin with.
Click to expand...


What kind of acid I use, when should I use it. Anyone a list of steps to follow ? I assume adding acid is a do - redo process till reaching the desired acidity.

I measured my mash ph after few good minutes of recirculating but definitely not 15 mins, definitely didn't cool it.
 
I sort of wish someone would just go ahead and publish a table of the different water profiles for a buildup from RO. Understanding there will be debates about this, but there are only guidelines out there in various threads, and most comments are "use a spreadsheet".

Some of us, a this point have helpless hard well water for most styles (mine seems to work for stouts, but really nothing else, if I cut with 50% RO).. so water adjustment spreadsheets and web sites really seem, although very educational, I will admit, to be continually re-inventing the wheel for those of us who likely will start off with 100% RO/DI. And it is kind of getting old. Honestly for 90% of what I brew a formula would be a better choice. I've made up a few for myself but I am no expert so I don't volunteer to do it. And yeah what out there is pretty vague except for some specific styles.
 
theQ said:
What kind of acid I use, when should I use it. Anyone a list of steps to follow ? I assume adding acid is a do - redo process till reaching the desired acidity.

I measured my mash ph after few good minutes of recirculating but definitely not 15 mins, definitely didn't cool it.
Click to expand...

Most common acids used are Lactic and Phosphoric. My acid contributions are calculated via Bru'n Water and I add it to the strike water before heating it.
 
UndeadFred said:
I sort of wish someone would just go ahead and publish a table of the different water profiles for a buildup from RO. Understanding there will be debates about this, but there are only guidelines out there in various threads, and most comments are "use a spreadsheet".

Some of us, a this point have helpless hard well water for most styles (mine seems to work for stouts, but really nothing else, if I cut with 50% RO).. so water adjustment spreadsheets and web sites really seem, although very educational, I will admit, to be continually re-inventing the wheel for those of us who likely will start off with 100% RO/DI. And it is kind of getting old. Honestly for 90% of what I brew a formula would be a better choice. I've made up a few for myself but I am no expert so I don't volunteer to do it. And yeah what out there is pretty vague except for some specific styles.
Click to expand...

The Water Primer in the "Brew Science" section has a basic run of the mill additions for people who use RO water without having to use a spreadsheet. From malty beers with roasted malts, to minerally beers, it tells you how much CaCl and CaSo4 to use.
 
UndeadFred said:
I sort of wish someone would just go ahead and publish a table of the different water profiles for a buildup from RO. Understanding there will be debates about this, but there are only guidelines out there in various threads, and most comments are "use a spreadsheet".

Some of us, a this point have helpless hard well water for most styles (mine seems to work for stouts, but really nothing else, if I cut with 50% RO).. so water adjustment spreadsheets and web sites really seem, although very educational, I will admit, to be continually re-inventing the wheel for those of us who likely will start off with 100% RO/DI. And it is kind of getting old. Honestly for 90% of what I brew a formula would be a better choice. I've made up a few for myself but I am no expert so I don't volunteer to do it. And yeah what out there is pretty vague except for some specific styles.
Click to expand...

The problem is there is no right water profile for a given beer. The pH will be affected by the grainbill, and people have different preferences in terms of target pH and overall mineral levels in order to influence flavor. If you want full control of these variables you need to plug in the grainbill and your targets each time, i.e. use a spreadsheet or calculator. If you want something formulaic to just get you in the right ballpark then use the water primer as Nat mentioned.
 
theQ said:
Can't be the hops.

That's why I did a first wort hopping to reduce the how harsh the bitterness is. One example is 1oz of Warrior as First Wort then 5 and 0 mins Mosaic for aroma.
Click to expand...

1 ounce of warrior, depending on the rest of the recipe, must be very harsh. I've seen them at 15-17% AAUs, which would be enough to feel like it's stripping enamel off of my teeth in some cases, FWH or not!

theQ said:
I did taste the water, it seems "dull" but that's to be expected as there are no minerals in it.

I don't use anything else to control the acidity.

Water profiling is one of the less documented things.

My ph on the batch I brew recently was 4.8 (10g gypsum + 5CaCl) it was an IPA.

Questions:
1. When do I measure the ph, I did after I few good minutes of recirculating
2. I batch sparge, usually 10 minutes while recirculating. The last one I did was 5 mins to extract less tannins will see how turns (did it 2 days ago). What's the best approach to avoid extracting tannin, is time ?


Ps.
I use BeerSmith for most of my recipes formulas.
Click to expand...

A mash pH of 4.8 without acid additions in an IPA and using distilled or RO water is unbelievable. So your meter is off, I assume. Was it freshly calibrated? Something here isn't right.
 
chickypad said:
The problem is there is no right water profile for a given beer. The pH will be affected by the grainbill, and people have different preferences in terms of target pH and overall mineral levels in order to influence flavor. If you want full control of these variables you need to plug in the grainbill and your targets each time, i.e. use a spreadsheet or calculator. If you want something formulaic to just get you in the right ballpark then use the water primer as Nat mentioned.
Click to expand...

I've never bothered entering in the entire grain bill into a spreadsheet or online calculator (which I like better), I tend to do it by style and it's always been "good enough" for me. I suppose I could eventually kick it up a notch and use the tool for that purpose but I've spot checked the pH on several of my mashes with a meter and I've always more or less been spot on. This leads me to believe if you are not looking for perfection, a cookbook recipe could work for many people and styles. Products like Accumash seem to verify that is possible with in ranges of styles.

I will admit that in my personal case messing with water more is a planned process improvement but I am making good beers now, better than what I had before with just adjusting water by "style".
 
Natdavis777 said:
The Water Primer in the "Brew Science" section has a basic run of the mill additions for people who use RO water without having to use a spreadsheet. From malty beers with roasted malts, to minerally beers, it tells you how much CaCl and CaSo4 to use.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that is the best info out there. It is what I started with, and I've tweaked it a bit for me "by style" like I said above by using the Brewer's Friend calculators. I verified one with Bru N Water and it's about the same, and I find the online calculators to be friendly.

I think it could be expanded with the caveat that it's "not optimal". Why I think that is a good idea is we could get a new AG brewer close that way on the first brew when there are so many other things for a new person to worry about.
 
Gypsum in my R/O batches makes the hops VERY harsh. It takes a few weeks in the cold to mellow them out, otherwise it's a raspy, dry flavor.

Leave out the Gypsum next time, even for your IPA, and see if you like it better.
 
Yooper said:
1 ounce of warrior, depending on the rest of the recipe, must be very harsh. I've seen them at 15-17% AAUs, which would be enough to feel like it's stripping enamel off of my teeth in some cases, FWH or not!



A mash pH of 4.8 without acid additions in an IPA and using distilled or RO water is unbelievable. So your meter is off, I assume. Was it freshly calibrated? Something here isn't right.
Click to expand...

I did suspect that as well. I need to find solutions to calibrate my meter. 4 and 7 right ?
 

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