DIY Peltier cooler ??

Brewing in Cal heat fermentation chamber is a plastic garbage can filled with water and regulated with digital thermo adding reusable ice as needed.

Bought borrowed and dickered some 12v peltiers, 12v water pump, alum water cooler, 12v 30a power source, 110v controller, tubing, fittings, wire, and an old wet suit.

I was thinking if a guy was smart enough he could probably rig up some kind of automatic water cooling...and heating device.

Y'all ever hear of such a thing?

There is a white paper on stouts website that goes into detail of how one person made a set up to cool his stout conical.

That should get you going in the right direction.

There are a number of instances of people trying it. I played with them quite a bit and found it terribly inefficient. Search over in the DIY section and you will find quite a few threads about them. Long story short, it is difficult to transfer the cooling/heating properties into the wort and they take a fair amount of electricity and heat dissipation to be viable. This has been the best solution I have seen. http://www.brewjacket.com/

I have done a little research on the peltier device. Yes they are inefficient however they are also inexpensive. I have a 100 W peltier and heat sinks and fans in route. I will be trying to reduce my fermentation chamber 12 x 12x 30 box from 71 degrees to low 60's. Since there is aproximently 65 degree difference from cold to hot side I am anticipating being Abe to hit my numbers. I hope, I hope, I hope! Since I will only have $21 dollars in the setup I figure I can't loose by trying.

Vesteroid said:

There is a white paper on stouts website that goes into detail of how one person made a set up to cool his stout conical.

That should get you going in the right direction.

Click to expand...

Vesteroid, can't find "Stouts" website, can you give more info. I would love to read this doc!

How did this ever turn out? I found some 240W and 360W semiconductor refrigeration for water circulation devices on fleabay. They look like 4 peltier plates with heatsinks and a fan blowing over them with water cooling plates attached. I'm thinking of hooking these up with a 12v pump (and large 12v power supply) to see how effective they are when circulating with a conical fermenter jacket.

NiteOwlBrewing said:

How did this ever turn out? I found some 240W and 360W semiconductor refrigeration for water circulation devices on fleabay. They look like 4 peltier plates with heatsinks and a fan blowing over them with water cooling plates attached. I'm thinking of hooking these up with a 12v pump (and large 12v power supply) to see how effective they are when circulating with a conical fermenter jacket.

Click to expand...

Didn't work for me. I ended up converting a coat closet into my fermentation chamber.

Insulated the inside with 2" thick foam board, ran 100' of 3/8" copper tubing inside the chamber, removed the guts from a mini fridge and put the freezer shelf inside ice chest with 50/50 antifreeze/water, hooked up pump and fan to controller and I can keep the chamber below 60 deg all summer

I bought a dorm fridge off craigslist for 20$, a 10$ pump, and two 28$ inkbird controllers. I stuck a plastic tote inside the fridge to serve as a resevoir and bent the chilling coils down into it. One inkbird controls the fridge so my reservoir of coolant doesn't freeze over, the other turns on the pump that moves coolant to the fermentor. It easily controls temps in my 14 gallon conical. I'm going to try lagering with it, but based on the performance so far, it should be able to handle it without a problem.

KartRacer54 said:

I have done a little research on the peltier device. Yes they are inefficient however they are also inexpensive. I have a 100 W peltier and heat sinks and fans in route. I will be trying to reduce my fermentation chamber 12 x 12x 30 box from 71 degrees to low 60's. Since there is aproximently 65 degree difference from cold to hot side I am anticipating being Abe to hit my numbers. I hope, I hope, I hope! Since I will only have $21 dollars in the setup I figure I can't loose by trying.

Click to expand...

I'll be the devils advocate and point out its a case of pay now or pay more later... peltiers might be cheaper than say a $50 ac unit and $20 cooler made into a chiller but that ac unit converted to a chiller can run multiple conicals or fermenters and over the course of use it will save a lot of money in operating costs as well... not to mention its much more effective at lagering and cold crashing.

I have bought them and played with them also... they are like homemade HHO fuel cells cool but just not practical... they dont even cool all that great with used in a small camper fridge setup. and judging by the few broken fridges and wine chillers Ive had to repair by replacing them, they arent all that reliable either. There was a couple stout setups for sale in the classified earlier this week...

Guess I should have posted an update, everything you say is correct. I have abandoned the peltier system as impractical.

KartRacer54 said:

Guess I should have posted an update, everything you say is correct. I have abandoned the peltier system as impractical.

Click to expand...

Sorry I didnt mean to come across as attacking you in any way it wasnt my intent... Just wanted to save some time for others seeing these threads when searching by sharing that I too thought they would be good and learned they were not as they seemed for the job.

No problem at all, glad you posted so maybe someone can avoid the expense and effort. Sure did seem like a good idea at the time though. LOL

My friends and I obtained a working AC window unit for free. Rewired it so it runs all the time. Then plugged it on to a temp controller that we bought for about 70 bucks. We cool a small room and are able to hit lagering temp. The AC unit has served us well for over 3 years now and is still running fine. Our fermenter is a 30 gal stainless. We also have a small space heater in case we need to raise the temp.

Brew2Drink1 said:

My friends and I obtained a working AC window unit for free. Rewired it so it runs all the time. Then plugged it on to a temp controller that we bought for about 70 bucks. We cool a small room and are able to hit lagering temp. The AC unit has served us well for over 3 years now and is still running fine. Our fermenter is a 30 gal stainless. We also have a small space heater in case we need to raise the temp.

Click to expand...

Yeah I lot of folks don't know you can make a temp controller for like $20 with a $14 Stc unit and a $5 relay with minimal knowledge and effort... They sell a $300 "coolbot" unit to do this too.

If you dig into all of the math, it turns out that you need a several KW (yes kilowatts) of semiconductors in a stack (yes multiple layers) to get this sort of job done. You also need a heatsink on the other side of the stack that will get down to about a 10C rise at a KW or so of power. They *are* that inefficient. It is *much* cheaper to do this with mechanical refrigeration.

Just figured I'd chime in and mention that I use a single 90watt peltier to cool my 5.5 gal carboy by pumping water over a water block cooled by the peltier element that flows around the carboy. It can get to about ~18 degrees below ambient temps and holds very well sitting in my insulated mash tun. Here is a picture of the prototype running...
http://i.imgur.com/U3T0tUD.jpg

This was probably under $100 in parts, and while I could use a fridge for the same cost, the main benefit is space savings in my apartment. Instead of a whole fridge I'm just reusing the brewing equipment I already have plus some electronics.

BBBF said:

http://conical-fermenter.com/TemperatureControlledBuildSetup.pdf

Click to expand...

With this setup, I can get a 30 degree temperature drop in my conical fermenter. I use 2 sets.

Regarding speed of the crash, I can drop my 6 gallons of wort 20 degrees in just a couple of hours - I brewed a Helles Lager a few weeks ago and knocked out in the 60's. I then crashed the wort to 44F for pitching the yeast in about 2 or maybe 3 hours, I forget exactly. In the past, I also recall being able to drop the temp by 8 degrees in a half an hour (from 75F to 67F).

They can work well if they are set up correctly if you are directly cooling your fermentation vessel.

I think using them to cool a fermentation chamber would be a bigger challenge, since they create heat on one side of the chip.

Not wanting to reinvent the wheel, I just bought a chest freezer at Home Depot, a InkBird controller, and a small cube heater. Five minutes later i had a fully automated ferm chamber that can also be used as a freezer, fridge, kegger, veggy cooler. In for well under 200 bucks. Mine is set to hold a max 2 degree swing. Happy yeast days.

Now, I don't understand why all freezers are not set up this way....much more useful for other things than just freezing fish.

Willy_Liverdye said:

Didn't work for me. I ended up converting a coat closet into my fermentation chamber.

Insulated the inside with 2" thick foam board, ran 100' of 3/8" copper tubing inside the chamber, removed the guts from a mini fridge and put the freezer shelf inside ice chest with 50/50 antifreeze/water, hooked up pump and fan to controller and I can keep the chamber below 60 deg all summer

Click to expand...

Any photos of this set up? Does the 100' of copper circle the walls or just act as a radiator in the corner of the room?

I use peltier on photography chip to cool the chip down and get rid of electronic noise. It has a hard enough time on a small chip to keep it cooled. I can not image trying to use a peltier on a large mass of anything to cool it down. Seems like it would be terrible inefficient.

tracyk said:

I use peltier on photography chip to cool the chip down and get rid of electronic noise. It has a hard enough time on a small chip to keep it cooled. I can not image trying to use a peltier on a large mass of anything to cool it down. Seems like it would be terrible inefficient.

Click to expand...

If done properly, it can work really well. I can attest to that and I am very happy with the performance of mine.

The only thing I cannot do is get the temps down to the lower 30's (maybe I could if I had a cooler place to put my fermenter, so the peltier chips don't have to do quite so much. My brewing/fermenting space is typically in the mid to upper 60's.

stouttanksandkettles said:

If done properly, it can work really well. I can attest to that and I am very happy with the performance of mine.

The only thing I cannot do is get the temps down to the lower 30's (maybe I could if I had a cooler place to put my fermenter, so the peltier chips don't have to do quite so much. My brewing/fermenting space is typically in the mid to upper 60's.

Click to expand...

The thing is it takes more energy to do it and there's more heat dispelled off the opposite side of the chip than more efficient measures . especially if your trying to bring a fermenter from 60 to 30.
This chips also have a high failure rate.. I have replaced them in a couple wine coolers and a small camper fridge already for people. Of course I have no doubts they work for you otherwise you wouldn't sell the kits for them.. It's just how they stack up to other methods. I
Actually looked at buying one of your kits.
But I couldn't justify the cost of the aluminum blocks to myself and understand why they were so much more than every other component including the electronics but then I realized it was just because of limited availability.

I do believe the coolzone jacket I use on one of your 12.5g fermenter just works better and a single pump and chilling solution for 4 Conicals is just so much more efficient.

And the discharge hose wrapped around them is even more effective but less portable if you want to remove it and clean the conical elsewhere.

I've invested more time and money that I would care to admit trying to get a peltier cooling chamber going. a used fridge with an inkbird, brewPi or any of the many PID options out there is probably easier, neater, well documented and in almost all cases much cheaper. (especially if you value your time AT ALL).
aside from some of the fun in tinkering, the reason I kept trying to get a peltier to work was because I didn't want to have to make space for a fridge. which is why I tried a fermenter in a water bucket, with the peltier attached to a copper water heat exchanger, as well as the peltier blowing cold air into an collapsible insulated mylar closet (popular with hydroponic growers). both experiments failed by far, and where quite messy
in retrospect I would either buy the brewjacket or try building my own...

I have a peltier system that works pretty well. Achieves 20-30 below ambient temp. Using a 60w peltier, 10 gallon cooler and some insulation
Been using it for 3 years now.

Willy_Liverdye said:

...
I was thinking if a guy was smart enough he could probably rig up some kind of automatic water cooling...and heating device.

Y'all ever hear of such a thing?

Click to expand...

Hi,
I saw one great article about chiller that maybe help you on your cooler...
But 2 problems before you open the article: 1= is in Portuguese Brazil and 2=I guess that is not exaclty what you need..

But still be a great article with pounds of images!
http://www.ipaq.org.br/vb/showthread.php?98423-Chiller-DIY-Passo-a-passo

Now, about cooling automation for a simple control you can use the deafult STC-1000 temp. controller..
For more a more sophisticated controller you can try the https://store.brewpi.com/

OR if you would like to build by your own then you can start using Arduino boards and shields, etc.

tks!
Frank

youtube channel: finselBR

Unfortunately, there is some incorrect and missing information on this thread. Yes, thermoelectric devices are inefficient. That may or may not be a good reason to avoid them. Given a highly insulated chamber, they can work well and have duty cycle minimized thereby reducing electricity. This is priority number one.

TEC's are simple heat pumps, and generate lots of heat in the process. Hence the inefficiency. As a general rule, for any amount of heat they pump, they create 3x as much. Therefore a very efficient heat sink must be used. In order to reach the scale we need, that heat sink MUST be liquid cooled on the hot side. It can be used on both sides if practical. Of course this adds complexity: one or two liquid pumps, coolant (which should be better than the minimum of distilled water), reservoirs, and heat exchangers (radiators plus fans for coolant:air transfer).

The other problem is as the temperature differential increases, their pumping ability drops. Compressor driven refrigerations don't suffer to nearly this degree. So you might quickly pump out the first few degrees, but the next few are more difficult. Add that to the cool side targets increased heat transfer across its insulation and it gets tricky.

If I were to make one, and I almost did, I would use 2 or three maximum amp TEC's. Like ~25 amps at 12V. I would use copper blocks appropriately sized and large (like over 100 in^2) radiators, plus strong fans on the radiators. Most of this stuff is available as high-end PC cooling hardware. The problem is this is several hundred dollars worth of hardware, and we know you could probably get a used glycol chiller for not much more, or create the DIY with a window AC or dehumidifier and cooler.

But the upside is cool (pun intended). They can be switched on and off quickly so can be controlled by PID. They can be nearly silent, and are fairly durable as long as cooled appropriately. Also, they can be reversed to provide heating rather than cooling.

In summary, very possible, just not that practical, especially given costs. Add electric costs downstream as AD points out and it's not a winning proposition.

Interesting read, where I live I am just on the edge of needing cooling, nine months of the years I could manage without cooling. However brewing produces heat so put the fermenter in an insulated box and then I need cooling for six months of the year.

It is easy to use an old fridge/freezer it is simply a case of set temp and walk away. That is what I do now, but it does take up a lot of room.

The idea of using less power seems good, but working out when to leave fridge door open and when to close is a problem, as soon as I install fans or pumps then very quickly back to using as much power as using the freezer compartment of fridge/freezer.

So freezer compartment used for 2 to 10 days with refrigeration as well as heating, then into fridge compartment with only heating for next 10 days before bottling. Once the first few days have gone, the heat from fermenting drops, and the fridge box means the day and night temperatures average out to allow it to remain cool even if ambient is 26 deg C in afternoon, as a night below 16 deg C.

The problem with the Peltier is it makes my garage warmer so will not get that night temp of 16 deg C, so it would need to be outside so just too much work to use one.

Willy_Liverdye said:

Brewing in Cal heat fermentation chamber is a plastic garbage can filled with water and regulated with digital thermo adding reusable ice as needed.

Bought borrowed and dickered some 12v peltiers, 12v water pump, alum water cooler, 12v 30a power source, 110v controller, tubing, fittings, wire, and an old wet suit.

I was thinking if a guy was smart enough he could probably rig up some kind of automatic water cooling...and heating device.

Y'all ever hear of such a thing?

Click to expand...

Question, What is reusable ice???

I think he means those ice packs you keep in the freezer and put in a cooler to keep things cold without swamping them with melted ice. Just a guess though.

Instead of using a TEG (thermoelectric generator/device) to heat/cool air, try using it to heat or cool water through a cooling block and then circulating that hot/cold water to a jacket around the carboy or fermenter. This I've found to be much more useful and take up way less space than a classic fermentation chamber.

The_Meatloaf said:

Just figured I'd chime in and mention that I use a single 90watt peltier to cool my 5.5 gal carboy by pumping water over a water block cooled by the peltier element that flows around the carboy. It can get to about ~18 degrees below ambient temps and holds very well sitting in my insulated mash tun. Here is a picture of the prototype running...
http://i.imgur.com/U3T0tUD.jpg

This was probably under $100 in parts, and while I could use a fridge for the same cost, the main benefit is space savings in my apartment. Instead of a whole fridge I'm just reusing the brewing equipment I already have plus some electronics.

Click to expand...

I used the same heat sink you have with my salsa chiller. I live in Southern California and it was bothering me that my salsa outside by the pool was getting warm..... Wanting to do a peltier cooling device of my own I rigged something up.

I used two of those heatsinks, two TEC's. For testing, it's mounted to a aluminum heatsink. I was able to pull down 50*f... (heatsink reading 32*f)

In this pic the heatsinks have a gap, with both fans pulling air through. I currently have it arranged so the heatsinks are touching, one fan pulls, the other pushes air through the fins. I have not finished the project yet. Next step is to attach a circular aluminum plate to the TEC's cold side and figure a way to attach a bowl to that and have it be removable for washing after use.

Wow, those are some monster heat sinks! Looks like it could be a tough job separating heat transfer between your hot side heat sinks and your cold side heat sink. Your salsa will be impressive.

A little off topic, but I'm in the middle of putting together a system using a peltier for use as a glycol chiller for a short run to a draft tower. With one 60W 4cmx4cm peltier in a test setup using a 10 oz loop of tap water, I got the tap water down to 45F. It took about an hour. It was completely uninsulated, so after a while the cup holding the water, and the peltier chip, were really condensing water out of the atmosphere and I couldn't drop the temps any more. I'm hoping that with good insulation I can get a circuit with about 16-18oz of RV antifreeze down to about 30-35. Used a 4cmx4cm aluminum block heat exchanger on the cold side of the peltier, with the water running through it, and an old CPU cooler (two heat pipes and fins, about 3.5 inches long on each side, with a single fan) on the hot side. I'll report back how well it works.

In doing the research, the thought crossed my mind about using the guts from one of those countertop ice makers for cooling the refrigerant. According to my understanding, they use real compressors rather than peltiers. It's probably overkill for my small setup, so I've shelved the idea. But I think they'd be sized nicely for a longer run of beer line. Mine is only a couple of feet over to a draft tower.

I was feeling ambitions one winter and built the peltier cooler shown below. It took me a few cheap coolers to realize you get what you pay for. The cheap coolers did not draw enough amps to drop the temperature in a reasonable amount of time. I ended up buying a more expensive cooler, it pulled more amps but still took a while to cool a 5 gallon batch.

It was a "cool" project but not very practical IMHO. I can't cold crash with it because it can't pull the heat out fast enough. It is pretty good about maintaining a temperature but struggles to reach it initially (I typically target low 60s). I did wire it such that the current can flow through it in either direction depending on whether you need heating or cooling. Again, a cool talking point but not terribly practical.

10sense said:

I was feeling ambitions one winter and built the peltier cooler shown below. It took me a few cheap coolers to realize you get what you pay for. The cheap coolers did not draw enough amps to drop the temperature in a reasonable amount of time. I ended up buying a more expensive cooler, it pulled more amps but still took a while to cool a 5 gallon batch.

It was a "cool" project but not very practical IMHO. I can't cold crash with it because it can't pull the heat out fast enough. It is pretty good about maintaining a temperature but struggles to reach it initially (I typically target low 60s). I did wire it such that the current can flow through it in either direction depending on whether you need heating or cooling. Again, a cool talking point but not terribly practical.

Click to expand...

you forgot to link the image..

EDIT nevermind its there now.

those heatsinks are pretty good. i think got mine on amazon for $23?