Help Yeast Bite? What to do now?

I tried brewing a German Style Kolsch in a box (DE) kit from my LHBS, here's my notes from the process...
IG 1.058 pitched my yeast at 75 degrees, took just over 48 hours to start fermentation at 68 degrees, once fermentation started, I started lowering the temp down to 60 degrees (I used 48 hours to drop the 8 degrees). On day 4 transferred to secondary (temp still 60) on day 10 (6 days in secondary) still bubbling, check with my LHBS and says let it go another week, on day 17 (13 days in secondary) still bubbling, check with my LHBS and says let it go another week your cold enough rack it next week.
On day 20 (16 days in secondary) I rack it into a corny keg (FG 1.035) and crash it to 35 degrees for 24 hours, then force carbonate (turning keg upside down and shake for 1 min) 48 hours later I drop the temp to 33 degrees, been in there for 13 days now, sampled last week and it taste yeasty and very cloudy. Sampled again today and no change to flavor and no change to cloudiness. I call my LHBS, and he says bring me a sample and we'll talk. blah blah.
He says I have yeast bite, and that there's nothing I can do, dump it... I've seen several posts on here about bottled yeast bite and time takes it away.
I know that this Kolsch is a Lager and should Lager for at least 4 weeks, but what home brewer isn't impatient, I tasted...bleh
So my question to my fellow brewers;
Follow my LHBS and dump 5 gal of yeast bitten Kolsch, or, wait to finish lagering it and see if time is my friend?
Cheers

I think you racked it to secondary way too soon. You need to wait until you reach FG and it stays there for a few days. Then wait a couple more days for the yeast to do the house keeping. Even then racking to secondary is unnecessary. Taking it off the yeast at 4 days is no doubt one of the causes. Having said that, unless it is really bad, I would let it ride.

Your FG of 1.035 is way to high and I don't think lagering here would help. I'd suggest warming the keg up and see if you can get it to ferment more. You may need to repitch more yeast but I suspect there should be enough left in solution.

Once you get that OG down then proceed to lager it. I bet this will vastly improve your beer.

Yeah, 4 days way too soon to transfer. Get away from the calendar and instead use a hydrometer - yeast dictate when to rack, not time. Some batches are quicker than others but you need to wait for a beer to be close to expected FG or stable gravity over a few days to rack, IMO. The quickest I have ever racked is 1 week, but that's only after I know FG is good to go. GENERALLY, anything over 1.020, you need to let it sit where it is.

eric71m said:

I tried brewing a German Style Kolsch in a box (DE) kit from my LHBS, here's my notes from the process...
IG 1.058 pitched my yeast at 75 degrees,

That is too warm IMO

took just over 48 hours to start fermentation at 68 degrees, once fermentation started, I started lowering the temp down to 60 degrees (I used 48 hours to drop the 8 degrees). On day 4 transferred to secondary

Don't bother transfering. If you must though wait until ferment is complete.

(temp still 60) on day 10 (6 days in secondary) still bubbling, check with my LHBS and says let it go another week, on day 17 (13 days in secondary) still bubbling, check with my LHBS and says let it go another week your cold enough rack it next week.
On day 20 (16 days in secondary) I rack it into a corny keg (FG 1.035)

I'm guessing this reading was taken with a refractometer?

It is not a true reading and needs to be corrected if this is indeed the case.

and crash it to 35 degrees for 24 hours, then force carbonate (turning keg upside down and shake for 1 min) 48 hours later I drop the temp to 33 degrees, been in there for 13 days now, sampled last week and it taste yeasty and very cloudy.

An incompletely fermented Kolsch or one that is complete will take weeks at cold temps to clear as per the style. No surprises there.

Sampled again today and no change to flavor and no change to cloudiness. I call my LHBS, and he says bring me a sample and we'll talk. blah blah.
He says I have yeast bite, and that there's nothing I can do, dump it... I've seen several posts on here about bottled yeast bite and time takes it away.
I know that this Kolsch is a Lager and should Lager for at least 4 weeks, but what home brewer isn't impatient, I tasted...bleh
So my question to my fellow brewers;
Follow my LHBS and dump 5 gal of yeast bitten Kolsch, or, wait to finish lagering it and see if time is my friend?
Cheers

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With fermentation temps, a more typical approach is to start lower than the desired ferment temp by a coupek of degrees and let it warm to the desired temp. Hold it there for the majority of the ferment and warm it a little toward the end. Once it's done, crash cool the beer and get it in the keg on gas +/- finings. Then wait till its ready (varies depending on the beer)

Sounds like your all over the map with your fermentation temperatures, transferring too early and needlessly, tasting early and if your gravity is correct (I doubt it is) the beer is not finished.

Check a sample with a hydrometer at the correct calibration temp for your hydrometer and my guess is it will read about 1.014

Just let it sit in the keg for 4-6 weeks cold (very cold) 30-32F and then try a few. If there is a lot of particulate to settle out the first pour or two willl be cloudy. Gelatin added to the keg will speed up the clearing for you.

I would not dump. I have no idea what yeast bite tastes like but there are a number of flaws in the process you outline. You could be tasting any number of things.

post boil keep it simple.

Pitch cooler than desired ferment temp
Let it passively warm to that temp if you have the ability to control temps(sounds like you do)
Let it ferment to near completion and then let it passivley warm to 68F for a Kolsch (Do this when the kraeusen is dropped and bubbles are slowed down)
Let it finish
Crash cool + gelatin
Keg and keep it cold and put it on gas at the desired psi.

So I had a side chat w Gavin, and he suggested I post our chat in the thread so here goes.

Originally Posted by eric71m
Hi Gavin,
I wanted to follow up with you on your post/comments in private, so that maybe I missed something, or maybe I should ignore some things in the future...
I stated I pitched my yeast at 75, I used WLP029 witch states to pitch between 70 and 75. what temp for a Kolsch should I pitch despite WL directions and the beer kit directions?
I stated that on day 4 I transferred to secondary fermentor, Again following the directions of my kit, "2-4 days later, (when blow-off is complete or beer is post high kraeusen), remove blow off hose and transfer to secondary carboy. Place airlock on top of carboy once transfer is complete." I felt that I was post high kraeusen because the foam started to fall back into the wort.
I took my gravity readings with a Hydrometer at 70 degrees, both og and fg.
Re-reading through the directions, the only thing that I missed was that the directions state to a 3rd carboy after 10 days in the second. (I assume that's to get it off the yeast cake?)
So, after all that, I am looking for advice, not trying to argue, except for what I was given in the directions, how would a beginner brewer know of the things like to leave it in primary longer than the directions state?
You state in your keep it simple, "pitch cooler than desired ferment temp", if the desired ferment temp is 60-62 (per directions) how do you cool the wort that low before pitching? I wouldnt think that it would require to be that low if even the WL directions state to pitch at 70-75?

I'd be happy to scan the recipe and directions to you to criticize, and provide advice for future brew days.
Eric


Hey Eric

Klos is a very delicate style and yeast management is critical to a successful brew. It is a difficult style to brew.
White labs always gives a range for yeast strains. The upper and lower limits of these ranges are rarely ideal for ferment to occur. WLP029 is an exception in that it can be used at near lager temps to produce hybrid beers like a Kolsch or an Alt. It can also be used to make lagers (albeit ones slightly not true to style)

Secondary's. Simple. Don't use them. There are tons of threads on this topic. I won't labor the point other than to say I used them when I was starting because kit instructions told me to. Now I know better.

Pitching yeast into wort that is warm has a bad effect on the yeast. There are lots of better sources of info out there than me so I won't go into more detail. This is a meaty topic in and of itself. There are microbiological reasons to do this. I pitch cooler than I will ferment at by cooling the wort with my plate chiller in to the 60's and then cooling in my fermentation chamber to any desired temperature. i use a chest freezer for this.

If your gravity is indeed at 1.035 as measured with your hydrometer with a sample at the calibration temperature of the hydrometer the beer is no where near finished fermenting. A Kolsch should get down to 1.010ish.

What you are tasting is therefore incompletely fermented beer.

For a difficult to brew style like Kolsch you need
1: Exact temperature control of pitch rate and fermentation temp.
2: A good sized starter to get the correct pitch rate
3: No oxidation

With all the temperature changes, (starter yes/no) and early transfer off the yeast the ferment likely stalled. 1.035 is a non-drinkable Kolsch in my books.

I hope this is of use. Please fee free to post your question and my reply in the thread itself. Others will certainly have a different take on things. Such is the benefit of a forum.

eric71m said:

Secondary's. Simple. Don't use them. There are tons of threads on this topic. I won't labor the point other than to say I used them when I was starting because kit instructions told me to. Now I know better.

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have you moved away from a carboy to a conical fermenter?

Just off the cuff I would say your lhbs dude is a hack. Kolsch is a hard style to nail. I would say that a lot of micros screw it up to, but that's old from what I've read. I've never been to Cologne.

Depending on your experience level, You should think of Flavors and tastes that you find appealing as opposed to styles. Maybe it's a less hoppy drier pale beer with a hint of wheat and little to no yeast character. Don't let this discourage you, brew on, cheers!

eric71m said:

have you moved away from a carboy to a conical fermenter?

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no

I ferment my beers in carboys.

Primary, crash cool when fermentation is complete, fining with gelatin, keg.

Follow up to my post.
Apparently my LHB guy wasn't wrong in this case, taste over notes wins...
I tapped the keg yesterday and poured a couple glasses, the first one was pretty cloudy, so I poured a second, and it was a bit clearer, tasted it.... WHOA that was NASTY, definitely WAY worse than a couple of weeks ago...

Bummer my first batch of kolsh down the drain, and a couple hours lost trying to clean the keg...

Only thing that I can come up with a cause for the yeast bite, is that somewhere I let Oxygen get back to the beer, maybe on transfer to secondary? maybe let sit in secondary too long, yet on some yeast cake still?

Next time....

Thanks for everyones input!

I still have no idea what you mean by yeast bite.

But a foul taste getting worse over time sounds like infection and/or oxidation which is extremely likely given the instructions you followed and the measures and steps you outlined.

If you are happy with your LHBS guy's instructions and the results the get you keep following them. Otherwise, a different approach is in order.

All my beers sit on the yeast cake till they go in the keg. Tasty clear beer can and does result as a matter of routine. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

By all means do what you feel is needed and don't take my advice as authoritative. I'm no expert. It's just that the instructions you describe are so at odds with all the reputable modern sources of info here on HBT and elsewhere.

0.5 gallon of yeast and trub at the bottom of the FV

Clear Beers Result[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]

You can pitch at 75, but if you're brewing a beer that needs to ferment low, you need to hit those temps early (within the first day or possibly less). It looks like you had it at 68 degrees during the growth phase, which is when off flavors are produced. Lowering the temperature after fermentation has begun can also cause yeast to become dormant. Not only that, you racked the beer off the dormant yeast to a secondary. If you don't rack from primary, you still have the option of rousing the yeast and getting things going again.

I want to make a note to point you toward the secondary vs no secondary debate threads. Do some searches, secondary is really a waste of effort. If you have some other issue that causes you to need a secondary (adding adjuncts, tons of hop particulate that you can't get out, etc), I understand, but there is no reason to do it until fermentation is finished (you hit FG) if you do it at all.

Gavin C said:

I still have no idea what you mean by yeast bite.

But a foul taste getting worse over time sounds like infection and/or oxidation which is extremely likely given the instructions you followed and the measures and steps you outlined.

If you are happy with your LHBS guy's instructions and the results the get you keep following them. Otherwise, a different approach is in order.

All my beers sit on the yeast cake till they go in the keg. Tasty clear beer can and does result as a matter of routine. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

By all means do what you feel is needed and don't take my advice as authoritative. I'm no expert. It's just that the instructions you describe are so at odds with all the reputable modern sources of info here on HBT and elsewhere.

0.5 gallon of yeast and trub at the bottom of the FVView attachment 287506

Clear Beers Result[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]

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Thanks Gavin, If you see in my other thread, I did converse with my LHBS a bit more, and chose to take my current batch "my direction" and trying to follow a few things lined out there in the forum and see how much better this next batch will turn out!!! I am positive. Thanks for your input and help.

jahdub said:

You can pitch at 75, but if you're brewing a beer that needs to ferment low, you need to hit those temps early (within the first day or possibly less). It looks like you had it at 68 degrees during the growth phase, which is when off flavors are produced. Lowering the temperature after fermentation has begun can also cause yeast to become dormant. Not only that, you racked the beer off the dormant yeast to a secondary. If you don't rack from primary, you still have the option of rousing the yeast and getting things going again.

I want to make a note to point you toward the secondary vs no secondary debate threads. Do some searches, secondary is really a waste of effort. If you have some other issue that causes you to need a secondary (adding adjuncts, tons of hop particulate that you can't get out, etc), I understand, but there is no reason to do it until fermentation is finished (you hit FG) if you do it at all.

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I have another thread going for my current batch, (in the fermenter now) and plan on taking the no secondary approach... how ever, the current batch I have going is just a light wheat beer, that I plan on putting extracts in upon kegging... I rarely do bottles...

eric71m said:

Thanks Gavin, If you see in my other thread, I did converse with my LHBS a bit more, and chose to take my current batch "my direction" and trying to follow a few things lined out there in the forum and see how much better this next batch will turn out!!! I am positive. Thanks for your input and help.

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No worries. Don't want to seem harsh but I wouldn't want you to get discouraged after following what you would have understandably assumed to be good info. Saw your other thread. Some great folks adding good advice there. Best of luck going forward. I'm sure this second batch will be more successful.

Cheers