How are these water additions?

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cgrivois

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Not getting any action in the science section so figured Id try it here.

Im trying to understand the water chemistry function in Brewers Friend so I did a test run with Munchers Crème of Three Crop. Below is my current water profile, and my target was Balanced Profile. Does this look correct? Also I'm a little confused in the salt additions section. Are the amounts that I chose the total additions for all of the water combined. If so, how do I divide them up if I don't prepare all of the water together, and the sparge and mash water volumes are different.

Grist
6lb 2Row
2lbs Flaked Corn
.5lb Flaked Rice

3.2 Gal Mash Water
6 Gal Sparge Water


My water Target With Aditions
Ca 12 80 84
Mg 4 5 23
Na 13 25 13
Cl 5 75 132
So4 2 80 79
Alkalinity 63 Alkalinity 9.3
PH 7.7 Mash PH 5.29

Additions
6 Oz acidulated malt to mash
.75 g/g Epson Salt
1 g/g Calcium Chloride

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=XGPJK6K
 
I have looked at brewers friend but i find the brun'water spreadsheet to be fairly easy to follow. I am still trying to get a handle on water chemistry myself, If you give me your water report bumber i can put them in the sheet and see if i come up with the same thing? But i need your profile numbers WITHOUT any additions.
 
The formating of my post came out screwed ip. The first numbers to the right of the element I listed above are my report numbers, the second number are the target for a balanced profile, the third are tha actual after additions.
 
Does your water report list bicarbonates? The spreadsheet can estimate bast off total alkalinity but if you have the number from ward labs, it would be more accurate. Also, i dont see the acuidualted malt accounted for in your brewers friend report.

I am working up the spreadsheet to the best of my ability and will give you a link in few. Also, looking at the numbers based on the profile you created gypsum might be a better choice than Epsom salts to get your sulfates up. Epsom adds magnesium and sulfates. Based on your desired profile, and current water, you dont need more mag really. But gypsum will add calcium and sulfates both of which you need to increase based on your desired water profile.
 
Alright, so here is what i have. But please remember i am still learning as well. If you can get someone in the brewing science section to take a look at these to verify that would be good.

But based n what i put into brun'water, Your profile should look like this:

Code: 
			                Ca	Mg	NA	SO4	CL	Bicarb 

Existing Water Profile			12	4	13	6	5	77
Finished Water Profile			79	4	22	80	83	40
Desired Profile                           84     5      25     80     75     ??
Based on this, the additions i am seeing additions of:
Code: 
                         Mash Addition    Sparge addition
Calcium chloride       3.1g                   1.9g
Canning salt             0.5g                   0.3g
Gypsum                   3.1g                   1.9g
Based on that recipe, the spreadsheet calculates a mash PH of 5.6. You have 8.5 lbs of grain so for every 2% of acidulated malt you use you should see a .1 drop in mash PH, so that would mean 10.88 oz of acidulated malt. another option would be to use lactic acid that you can get from your LHBS. Its 88% acid solution so you have to use a LOT less. My advice would be to measure your mash PH BEFORE you add the acid malt or lactic acid just to be sure. You may not need it or need as much as you think and from my experiences its a lot harder to raise mash PH than lower it.

that seems like a lot of acidualted malt to me though so honestly i could be wrong, but that is what i am calculating. If anyone else is checking this thread out and see an error in my calcs, please show me what i did wrong. lol

Here is a link to the shared spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FnIMsevaG6-72dQ_sZAa6WYd9Weo5D8gW-eU3VdNaLI/edit?usp=sharing

Also, if you want to download a copy of the sheet, go here: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/


hope this helps! :mug:
 
cgrivois said:
The formating of my post came out screwed ip. The first numbers to the right of the element I listed above are my report numbers, the second number are the target for a balanced profile, the third are tha actual after additions.
Click to expand...

did you take a look at teh stuff i posted?
 
I use Brewer's Friend too and have a decent amount of experience with their water calculator. I looked at your link.

Add 5g gypsum and 5g CaCl to your total water. Add 3.76 mL lactic acid OR 4.8 oz acidulated malt to the mash (only). Voila; mash pH of 5.40 and a near perfect match of your target ions.

Don't worry about matching carbonate or sodium. You want those as low as possible in practice, once mash pH is attained via other means.
 
frettfreak said:
did you take a look at teh stuff i posted?
Click to expand...

I did. I keep getting hung up on what the most important things to look for is water chemistry. I assume Mash PH is 1st. Using brewers friend, I just willy nilly added things until I got the green stars at the bottom, which evidently isn't the way to go. I'm trying to find a combo of additives that I can constantly use on light lagers using my current water.
 
McKnuckle said:
I use Brewer's Friend too and have a decent amount of experience with their water calculator. I looked at your link.

Add 5g gypsum and 5g CaCl to your total water. Add 3.76 mL lactic acid OR 4.8 oz acidulated malt to the mash (only). Voila; mash pH of 5.40 and a near perfect match of your target ions.

Don't worry about matching carbonate or sodium. You want those as low as possible in practice, once mash pH is attained via other means.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Ill plug those numbers in.
 
McKnuckle said:
I use Brewer's Friend too and have a decent amount of experience with their water calculator. I looked at your link.

Add 5g gypsum and 5g CaCl to your total water. Add 3.76 mL lactic acid OR 4.8 oz acidulated malt to the mash (only). Voila; mash pH of 5.40 and a near perfect match of your target ions.

Don't worry about matching carbonate or sodium. You want those as low as possible in practice, once mash pH is attained via other means.
Click to expand...


Where should I ad the gypsum and CaCL? Should I add it all to my mash water, or split it up and add part of it to my sparge water. I typicaly use enough mash water to get a 1.5 qt/lbd in my mash, then use the rest to batch sparge.
 
Yooper Im trying to understand your process of using RO water to sparge with. How would I account for that in brewersfriend?
 
Under water volumes which is the first section in the water calc section, there is a button to "use different water for mash and sparge". Then there is a sparge water section lower that asks for the ion levels of the sparge water. I wated to see what using RO water for the sparge did to the overall numbers.
 
Yooper I think Ive read that you didn't care for most of the profiles used in brewers friend. What ion levels would you recommend for light beers / lawn mower beer? I want to continue using brewers friend as that's where I keep all of my recipe's and starter info. Just easier to use one program.
 
Not trying to step on Yoopers toes, & please correct me if I am wrong. It wont have an affect if you select Add to mash only when entering your salts. Also you only need like 4grams of Calcium chloride
 
cgrivois said:
This water profile game is driving me to drink.
Click to expand...


It gets better ;)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/astringency-every-ag-batch-513990/index4.html

Check out a few of the links from post 36. there is a lot of good info in this thread & I have used brewers friend with success
 
smAllGrain said:
Also, your calculations look good. just check Add to mash only for your salts & then sparge with 100% RO water.
Click to expand...

That's what I'd do.

I use bru'n water, but I have used brewer's friend as well with good results.

I'm of the 'less is more' camp. Just like with salting food, a little undersalting is ok but oversalting ruins it. I'd start with less (and not a 'profile' which is tricky) and for the next time, you can always use more if you want. You won't ruin a beer by using less chloride or sulfate, but you can certainly ruin it from too much of those, or too much magnesium.

The 'easy button' for me is to target the appropriate mash pH, and then look at things like sulfate and chloride for the flavoring. Thing of the salts you add like seasonings for your food- in small amounts it can bring a good dish to great, but not if it's overdone.
 
McKnuckle said:
I stated "total water" in my post. Salts to all the water, acid to the mash portion only.
Click to expand...

I agree, if someone is adding salts. My only disagreement is that a cream ale doesn't need gypsum, and is actually not a good addition to this beer, but others may like sulfate in a cream ale, I suppose. I didn't mean to make it look like I disagreed with adding acid to the mash- that's imperative in most cases.
 
He was trying to match a specific water profile using Brewer's Friend and was using several unnecessary salts to get there, so I helped guide him to a simpler means of doing it. It wasn't my endorsement of the profile as being ideal for the style.

As with so many things in brewing, the only real way to learn and develop informed opinions is through experience and empiricism. Many oft-stated brewing "facts" are just not that convincing in practice. That's one of the problems with forums; well, it's a blessing AND a curse. You can ask a question and get ten answers! Too much information...

My big epiphany with water was in diagnosing a terrible bicarbonate/alkalinity/sodium bitterness when brewing with my well water. I've used distilled or spring ameliorated with salts ever since, and my beer is a million times better.

I treat all my water at once since I BIAB with full volume. I like to get my mash pH between 5.3 and 5.5, calcium above 50, magnesium around 10, sodium as low as possible, and chloride/sulfate at modest levels (< 100 for sure, usually < 50, except 150 SO4 for IPAs). I have played with the supposed chloride = full, sulfate = dry balance, but I can't say I recognize much of a pattern yet. Maybe eventually.

This turned into a ramble... Sorry about that!
 
Yooper said:
I agree, if someone is adding salts. My only disagreement is that a cream ale doesn't need gypsum, and is actually not a good addition to this beer, but others may like sulfate in a cream ale, I suppose. I didn't mean to make it look like I disagreed with adding acid to the mash- that's imperative in most cases.
Click to expand...

I just want to understand the WHY as i am learning here too. Just want to make sure i am thinking about his right. will Increasing the sulfates (gypsum) will increase hop bitterness which would not be desirable in a cream ale?
 
In any case you are going for what - something like 80 ppm sulfate? And it's balanced with chloride, too. So it's probably a moot point. The whole "sulfate enhances bitterness" thing doesn't kick in until over 100 ppm if you believe what you read.

Gypsum increases calcium content and lowers pH in addition to raising SO4. It's a multi-purpose salt. I respectfully disagree that it is perceptible as a "seasoning" in small doses, and I would have to sample two beers intentionally brewed to showcase the difference if I'm to be convinced. Now at higher levels, yes, definitely. I am not fond of SO4 over 200 in my experience so far.
 
I picked the balance profile in brewers friend only because it sounded like the most universal. I picked the cream ale recipe only because it was a light beer recipe that I had in my profile. I&#8217;m basically looking for "standard" numbers for a light beer, as my palate is not really refined enough to notice subtle differences in taste. I use the word &#8220;standard&#8221; loosely because I realize that nothing in brewing is set in stone.
 
Standard numbers for a light beer... Get the pH right, around 5.4, with calcium at least 50 and other minerals at a minimum. That's what I'd do. There are profiles on BF for "light colored and malty" and "light colored and hoppy." Try those.
 
frettfreak said:
I just want to understand the WHY as i am learning here too. Just want to make sure i am thinking about his right. will Increasing the sulfates (gypsum) will increase hop bitterness which would not be desirable in a cream ale?
Click to expand...

Basically, yes. Sulfate doesn't really enhance bitterness, instead it increases the perception of dryness and so the hops bitterness is made a bit more prominent (some say harsher). That is undesirable in a cream ale, and probably most beers that would want a 'rounded' flavor to them. It's especially undesirable in some hop varieties like German hops. Sulfate is not kind to some styles, or some hops.

I have a problem with 'profiles' as mot are impossible to hit exactly, and they don't matter. Worse is the whole 'chloride/sulfate ratio' talk.

For example, say you had a chloride level of 10, and a sulfate level of 20. But both are so minimal that it is practically nothing. That's a 2:1 sulfate to chloride ratio. Still, not anything at all to worry about.

But if you had a chloride level of 150, and a sulfate level of 300, that would be the same ratio but the beer would be minerally and nearly undrinkable.

For a cream ale, a nice level of chloride would be 50-80 ppm or so, and sulfate can be 0 to 50, and wouldn't matter all that much.

That's why the ratio doesn't matter and should be banned from all of those calculators!

"Less is more" applies here. The salts you are using are simply "seasonings". You can make a fine beer without ANY of those salts. The key is the mash pH being proper- that is imperative.

The other additions are basically 'salting to taste', just like with cooking. In this, 'less is more' works because no one ever said, "This beer is good, but if it had 20 ppm more of chloride it would be fantastic!" while plenty have said, "Ugh, this beer is good but it's way too harsh and I get a mineral flavor".

Make the beer with minimal additions at first, and you won't be disappointed unless you really understand what you are adding and what it brings to the beer.
 
Yooper said:
Basically, yes. Sulfate doesn't really enhance bitterness, instead it increases the perception of dryness and so the hops bitterness is made a bit more prominent (some say harsher). That is undesirable in a cream ale, and probably most beers that would want a 'rounded' flavor to them. It's especially undesirable in some hop varieties like German hops. Sulfate is not kind to some styles, or some hops.

I have a problem with 'profiles' as mot are impossible to hit exactly, and they don't matter. Worse is the whole 'chloride/sulfate ratio' talk.

For example, say you had a chloride level of 10, and a sulfate level of 20. But both are so minimal that it is practically nothing. That's a 2:1 sulfate to chloride ratio. Still, not anything at all to worry about.

But if you had a chloride level of 150, and a sulfate level of 300, that would be the same ratio but the beer would be minerally and nearly undrinkable.

For a cream ale, a nice level of chloride would be 50-80 ppm or so, and sulfate can be 0 to 50, and wouldn't matter all that much.

That's why the ratio doesn't matter and should be banned from all of those calculators!

"Less is more" applies here. The salts you are using are simply "seasonings". You can make a fine beer without ANY of those salts. The key is the mash pH being proper- that is imperative.

The other additions are basically 'salting to taste', just like with cooking. In this, 'less is more' works because no one ever said, "This beer is good, but if it had 20 ppm more of chloride it would be fantastic!" while plenty have said, "Ugh, this beer is good but it's way too harsh and I get a mineral flavor".

Make the beer with minimal additions at first, and you won't be disappointed unless you really understand what you are adding and what it brings to the beer.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info! I appreciate it. I have just started reading the "water" book by palmer so i am hoping this gets me where i need to be with knowledge on the subject.
 

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