first runnings iipa & session ipa recipe critique please

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Peyope

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Greetings!

Just heard word from a brew friend. He's asked me to house sit this weekend and offered to let me brew at his place (I have two stouts currently fermenting which is my max capacity). I would never say no to brewing more beer and thought it'd be fun to combine our equipment to brew 10 gallons.

I love strong beers. As the title states, I'm looking to do a first runnings iipa and a session ipa with the subsequent sparge using his burner and kettle with mine to do two separate boils.


This came up last minute and I don't have much time to plan a recipe but I was thinking of basing it off a Pliny clone.

The proposed grain bill:

24 lb 2row (85.7%)
1.5 lb crystal 40 (5.3%)
2.5 lb carapils (8.9%)

Unfortunately I don't own beersmith. I'd like the iipa to be >10%. I plan on using us05. Hop schedule is to be determined but I plan on picking up 1 lb of chinook, 1 lb columbus, and 8 oz simco. Might not use all of it. Also been looking into mash hopping.

I'll be here all night. I would greatly appreciate a dialog with all you smart brewers.
 
You're doing it backwards. You want the richest least fermentable wort for your session and the most fermentable wort for your DIPA.

TBH I think that you're brewing 2 diff beers that cannot be brewed in this manner.
 
Peyope said:
Greetings!

Just heard word from a brew friend. He's asked me to house sit this weekend and offered to let me brew at his place (I have two stouts currently fermenting which is my max capacity). I would never say no to brewing more beer and thought it'd be fun to combine our equipment to brew 10 gallons.

I love strong beers. As the title states, I'm looking to do a first runnings iipa and a session ipa with the subsequent sparge using his burner and kettle with mine to do two separate boils.


This came up last minute and I don't have much time to plan a recipe but I was thinking of basing it off a Pliny clone.

The proposed grain bill:

24 lb 2row (85.7%)
1.5 lb crystal 40 (5.3%)
2.5 lb carapils (8.9%)

Unfortunately I don't own beersmith. I'd like the iipa to be >10%. I plan on using us05. Hop schedule is to be determined but I plan on picking up 1 lb of chinook, 1 lb columbus, and 8 oz simco. Might not use all of it. Also been looking into mash hopping.

I'll be here all night. I would greatly appreciate a dialog with all you smart brewers.
Click to expand...

Great minds think alike! I was just contemplating the same thing. I am planning on a first runnings dopplebock and a lighter session "quasi" bock "junior", if you will. It will be a double decoction mash. I am planning for the first run to be about 7 gallons, set that off to the side, and finish the first running AND sparge for the other batch. The first run I am going to of course ferment, then do a secondary and lager for about 6 months or so, then bottle and store at about 45*. The plan is to serve it to family when my daughter graduates high school in 2016. Should be real good by then.
 
Xpertskir said:
You're doing it backwards. You want the richest least fermentable wort for your session and the most fermentable wort for your DIPA.

TBH I think that you're brewing 2 diff beers that cannot be brewed in this manner.
Click to expand...

Can you explain first about the most rich (I assume rich in sugar) wort being least fermentable?

Do the second runnings lend different characteristics to the beer that would make it not a suitable choice for a session ipa? Would adding dextrose make a difference if I don't hit the right gravity?

For what it's worth I could do two separate mashes but thought this would be a neat experiment while killing two birds with one stone.

Thanks for the input,

-Peter
 
Last edited:
beerme70 said:
Great minds think alike! I was just contemplating the same thing. I am planning on a first runnings dopplebock and a lighter session "quasi" bock "junior", if you will. It will be a double decoction mash. I am planning for the first run to be about 7 gallons, set that off to the side, and finish the first running AND sparge for the other batch. The first run I am going to of course ferment, then do a secondary and lager for about 6 months or so, then bottle and store at about 45*. The plan is to serve it to family when my daughter graduates high school in 2016. Should be real good by then.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a great idea! I've been looking for info on the first runnings not having good fermentability and can't find much at all.

All I could find was this that said water to grain ratio did not have an impact on the fermentability of the wort.
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2013/03/technical-notes-on-fermentability.html?m=1
 
Thank you beerme.

Now to figure out my hop schedule. Any suggestions? It'll be difficult to get work done today with hop schedules floating through my head.
 
Peyope said:
Can you explain first about the most rich (I assume rich in sugar) wort being least fermentable?

Do the second runnings lend different characteristics to the beer that would make it not a suitable choice for a session ipa? Would adding dextrose make a difference if I don't hit the right gravity?

For what it's worth I could do two separate mashes but thought this would be a neat experiment while killing two birds with one stone.

Thanks for the input,

-Peter
Click to expand...


A session IPA and DIPA are completely opposite beers. You want a rich and highly unfermentable wort for a session and a lighter in flavor highly fermentable wort for a DIPA.


The first runnings of a beer generally have more flavor components than the second runnings, even if you were to water down the first runnings to a comparable gravity.



I could get more thoughtful and specific about why this will not work, but I'm tired of spending time sharing knowledge for posters to run off and do whatever they originally planned with no credence to the thoughtful response I crafted through experience in brewing.

So i'll leave it as this, it will not work, as your recipe and idea currently stand you will end up with an underattenuated DIPA and an overattenuated session, neither of which I would enjoy drinking.
 
Peyope said:
Can you explain first about the most rich (I assume rich in sugar) wort being least fermentable?

Do the second runnings lend different characteristics to the beer that would make it not a suitable choice for a session ipa? Would adding dextrose make a difference if I don't hit the right gravity?

For what it's worth I could do two separate mashes but thought this would be a neat experiment while killing two birds with one stone.

Thanks for the input,

-Peter
Click to expand...

If I'm understanding everyone correctly, there are two parts to this answer...

First: Your first runnings from the mash are going to be higher in gravity, which is why you want to boil your IIPA from the first runnings (you need more sugars to hit the higher OG) and your session ale from the second runnings (after most of the sugars have already washed away, leaving a lower OG wort).

Second: Because IIPAs are such a big beer, but still have a lower target FG so that the hops can shine through, you need a more fermentable wort. Let's say, to keep things easy, you want both your IIPA and session IPA to end up around 1.010, and the target OG for the IIPA is 1.080 v. 1.055 for the session.

From those targets, you need an 88% attenuation for the IIPA (1.080 » 1.010 = a .070 drop, 70/80 = 87.5%), but a 82% attenuation for the session IPA (1.055 » 1.010 = .045 drop, 45/55 = 81.8%). If you have the same attenuation for the session IPA as you did for the IIPA, your session would end up at an FG of 1.007, even assuming the yeast didn't make a difference (if anything, the session's yeast would be more effective, since yeast efficacy drops with higher gravities). Note the values here are arbitrary, but should illustrate the issue.

TL/DR: If you use the same runnings for both beer's worts, you have to take into account the attenuation rates. It'll be hard to strike a balance and get a common wort that works for both an IIPA and a session IPA.
 
I've been planning an imperial stout/dry stourt partigyle, and have been a little worried about what Xpertskir's pointing out – if you mash long and cool to make sure the big beer doesn't end up an underattenuated syrup bomb, the small beer is at risk of coming out thin and watery.

But in browsing around the forums, I've found a few tricks the partigyle brewer has up his sleeve to fix this problem:

  • Adding some grains when you add your first batch of sparge water and letting them steep; this will add color, and since your amylase will be denatured by this point, a lot of sweetness and body. This is called "capping the mash."
  • Using a less attenuative yeast on the session beer
  • "Trading" some of the wort between the batches, e.g., throw half a gallon of the first runnings into the session beer, and have the session beer throw back half a gallon of the sparge.
 
Xpertskir said:
A session IPA and DIPA are completely opposite beers. You want a rich and highly unfermentable wort for a session and a lighter in flavor highly fermentable wort for a DIPA.


The first runnings of a beer generally have more flavor components than the second runnings, even if you were to water down the first runnings to a comparable gravity.



I could get more thoughtful and specific about why this will not work, but I'm tired of spending time sharing knowledge for posters to run off and do whatever they originally planned with no credence to the thoughtful response I crafted through experience in brewing.

So i'll leave it as this, it will not work, as your recipe and idea currently stand you will end up with an underattenuated DIPA and an overattenuated session, neither of which I would enjoy drinking.
Click to expand...


Hold on, don't jump to conclusions. Like many on this site I'm here to learn.

That said, I'll listen to advice from strangers but I'm more inclined to do so when is backed up by research. I picked up the grains today so I'm locked in the grain bill, but id still like to learn.
 
feinbera said:
I've been planning an imperial stout/dry stourt partigyle, and have been a little worried about what Xpertskir's pointing out – if you mash long and cool to make sure the big beer doesn't end up an underattenuated syrup bomb, the small beer is at risk of coming out thin and watery.

But in browsing around the forums, I've found a few tricks the partigyle brewer has up his sleeve to fix this problem:

  • Adding some grains when you add your first batch of sparge water and letting them steep; this will add color, and since your amylase will be denatured by this point, a lot of sweetness and body. This is called "capping the mash."
  • Using a less attenuative yeast on the session beer
  • "Trading" some of the wort between the batches, e.g., throw half a gallon of the first runnings into the session beer, and have the session beer throw back half a gallon of the sparge.
Click to expand...

I like the trading idea. Already bought the same us05 for both beers so that idea is out. And separating the grains to add a bit more to the sparge is a decent idea.
 
jwbeard said:
If I'm understanding everyone correctly, there are two parts to this answer...

First: Your first runnings from the mash are going to be higher in gravity, which is why you want to boil your IIPA from the first runnings (you need more sugars to hit the higher OG) and your session ale from the second runnings (after most of the sugars have already washed away, leaving a lower OG wort).

Second: Because IIPAs are such a big beer, but still have a lower target FG so that the hops can shine through, you need a more fermentable wort. Let's say, to keep things easy, you want both your IIPA and session IPA to end up around 1.010, and the target OG for the IIPA is 1.080 v. 1.055 for the session.

From those targets, you need an 88% attenuation for the IIPA (1.080 » 1.010 = a .070 drop, 70/80 = 87.5%), but a 82% attenuation for the session IPA (1.055 » 1.010 = .045 drop, 45/55 = 81.8%). If you have the same attenuation for the session IPA as you did for the IIPA, your session would end up at an FG of 1.007, even assuming the yeast didn't make a difference (if anything, the session's yeast would be more effective, since yeast efficacy drops with higher gravities). Note the values here are arbitrary, but should illustrate the issue.

TL/DR: If you use the same runnings for both beer's worts, you have to take into account the attenuation rates. It'll be hard to strike a balance and get a common wort that works for both an IIPA and a session IPA.
Click to expand...

So theres no change in the type of sugar just that the yeast works harder at higher gravities?
 
Peyope said:
So theres no change in the type of sugar just that the yeast works harder at higher gravities?
Click to expand...

The yeast doesnt "work harder" at higher gravities; the work is harder for the yeast to do at higher gravities (and they stop doing it more quickly). Attenuation rates drop as you scale up the original gravity of a wort; an "easy" wort of 1.040 might get 75% attentuation; the same exact grain profile scaled up to a 1.080 might get only 65% attenuation (even with twice as much yeast pitched). This is why there is a special "High Gravity" yeast from White Labs - most yeasts simply crap out and do little, if any, work on a super-high gravity wort (in part because the starting environment stresses the yeast out; in part because the stress added by their byproduct (alcohol) interferes with their metabolic process sooner).

Yeast health has a huge role in this too - that's why people often suggest using a starter for an IIPA, to get as much attenuation as possible out of the yeast. But that's another issue...

:beard:


Edit: Xpertskir raises an interesting point about more of the flavor components departing the grain during the first runnings, but I have no good experimental data on that. If that is the case, then your first runnings from a mash would also taste different even if you diluted the runnings down to the same gravity as the second runnings...
 
I think the point raised by Xpertskir is valid and can be put plainly like this:

DIPA recipes generally call for low mash temps and/or simple sugars to keep the final gravity low even in a higher OG beer. This is to purposefully thin the beer down so it won't be thick and barleywine-esque and make it more drinkable.

A session IPA is typically a more complex grist to give a malt backbone and is mashed higher in temp to keep some of those unfermentable sugars in the beer so it WON'T be thin and watery, which is a common problem in low ABV beers in general.

The best solution is to cap the mash and mash a little longer after your first runnings, at a higher temp if you can (like 156, perhaps). This will also give a few more points to the session IPA's OG, which is a good thing (check out this chart: http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue2.2/moshertable.html: 50/50 split partigyle with first runnings at 1.080 gets you a 1.040 beer, which may not be quite enough). I would recommend capping with something like Munich and even adding some crystal to the cap. I did this with a DIPA first runnings/American red second runnings brewday and both beers were excellent. Whatever you decide, good luck!
 
So from what I've read here it looks like I have a couple options :

1. Do it how I originally planned and hope for the best.

2. Cap the mash with maybe 1-2 lb munich, some of the grain I already have, and some crystal that I could pick up tonight or tomorrow before brew day and mix the worts a bit.

3. Brew it as one big beer (which doesn't help me practice new skills ).


For future reference and so that others can learn when they search, if one were to brew this way, what are some optimal beer combinations?
 
Peyope said:
Hold on, don't jump to conclusions. Like many on this site I'm here to learn.

That said, I'll listen to advice from strangers but I'm more inclined to do so when is backed up by research. I picked up the grains today so I'm locked in the grain bill, but id still like to learn.
Click to expand...

Don't take it personal. I came across this about a month ago:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/i-left-my-grains-fermenter-489983/index2.html

If you don't do exactly what he says, the exact way he says to do it. The you are a piece of S*** and he will try to tear you down. He could be the most experienced, educated, knowledgeable brewer in the world, but I won't listen to a word he has to say cause he's an A**. Gives WV a bad name.
 
1. This is pretty easily solved by "capping" the mash for your Session beer- just add some more carapils and more Crystal- this will up the unfermentable sugars, but leave the majority of the runnings highly fermentable-

2. Pitch WLP001 for your IIPA, WY1968 for your Session- lower attenuation mixed with your unfermentable "capped" sugars, and you'll have a great session.

3. Ignore Xpertskir because he clearly doesn't understand fermentability and partigyle methods, plus he's grumpy.

EDIT: Suggestion for Partigyle beers? Do an American Barleywine then a Session IPA- the higher crystal in the Barleywine will help with the Session. Also Imperial Stout-Dry Stout
 
Falcon3 said:
1. This is pretty easily solved by "capping" the mash for your Session beer- just add some more carapils and more Crystal- this will up the unfermentable sugars, but leave the majority of the runnings highly fermentable-

2. Pitch WLP001 for your IIPA, WY1968 for your Session- lower attenuation mixed with your unfermentable "capped" sugars, and you'll have a great session.

3. Ignore Xpertskir because he clearly doesn't understand fermentability and partigyle methods, plus he's grumpy.

EDIT: Suggestion for Partigyle beers? Do an American Barleywine then a Session IPA- the higher crystal in the Barleywine will help with the Session. Also Imperial Stout-Dry Stout
Click to expand...

Thank you. I'll look at the wy1968 and make the revisions. Appreciate all the help and I'll report the results.
 
Wy1968 makes a great American Session IPA! I forgot to mention that it ferments very clean around 63- ramp it up to 70 after about 5-6 days to finish it out.
 
Sounds great, I'll set my temperature accordingly. Just hope they have it at my LHBS.

And no hate for Xpertskir's writing coming off "grumpy". He started the dialog that'll hopefully prevent 5 gallons of subpar beer being brewed. I'm sure lots of people come here, ask advise, then proceed to say "screw it I'll do what I want ".

I appreciate all the help.
 
fsr_racer said:
Don't take it personal. I came across this about a month ago:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/i-left-my-grains-fermenter-489983/index2.html

If you don't do exactly what he says, the exact way he says to do it. The you are a piece of S*** and he will try to tear you down. He could be the most experienced, educated, knowledgeable brewer in the world, but I won't listen to a word he has to say cause he's an A**. Gives WV a bad name.
Click to expand...

Actually I didn't give advice in that thread, nor did I call him a piece of ****. Although my advice would have been to dump it, which was kind if implied. Thanks for calling me an ass though.



^ I actually do understand partigyle and my point from the start of this thread is that unlike other some other beer pairings(like A big stout and a dry stout) that make sense for a partigyle this combo does not.

Let's set that all aside OP. With ~5% crystal and ~9% dextrine malt, high OG, and no simple sugar you will end up with a very high FG and IMHO an undrinkable DIPA.

I'd drop the dextrine completely and add 5% simple sugar.

Edit: you could leave he dextrine out of the first mash and then cap the mash with it, let is rest for ~15 minutes then take your second running. 1968/002 is always my choice for a session IPA. That's only if you are dead set on doing it, you have to work extremely hard to make a session IPA not taste thin and watery. I'm still not convinced a good one can me made with partigyle I'm talking a real session <4% abv, not the 5% sessions available in the beer store.
 
Peyope said:
Sounds great, I'll set my temperature accordingly. Just hope they have it at my LHBS.

And no hate for Xpertskir's writing coming off "grumpy". He started the dialog that'll hopefully prevent 5 gallons of subpar beer being brewed. I'm sure lots of people come here, ask advise, then proceed to say "screw it I'll do what I want ".

I appreciate all the help.
Click to expand...

No ill will intended, unlike a lot of posters you probably searched and didn't find an answer to your good question.
 
Xpertskir said:
Actually I didn't give advice in that thread, nor did I call him a piece of ****. Although my advice would have been to dump it, which was kind if implied. Thanks for calling me an ass though.



^ I actually do understand partigyle and my point from the start of this thread is that unlike other some other beer pairings(like A big stout and a dry stout) that make sense for a partigyle this combo does not.

Let's set that all aside OP. With ~5% crystal and ~9% dextrine malt, high OG, and no simple sugar you will end up with a very high FG and IMHO an undrinkable DIPA.

I'd drop the dextrine completely and add 5% simple sugar.

Edit: you could leave he dextrine out of the first mash and then cap the mash with it, let is rest for ~15 minutes then take your second running. 1968/002 is always my choice for a session IPA. That's only if you are dead set on doing it, you have to work extremely hard to make a session IPA not taste thin and watery. I'm still not convinced a good one can me made with partigyle I'm talking a real session <4% abv, not the 5% sessions available in the beer store.
Click to expand...

I see what you're saying. I already have the grains milled together so my options are limited at this point. I like the suggestion for the future. Maybe 10 gallons of a regular ipa is the best route now and reevaluate the partigyle style in the future. The reason this came to mind was cause I have a spare burner and kettle while watching his house.
 
Quick update. Brewed it as one 10 gal IPA. same grain bill listed on the front. 24 lb 2row, 1.5 lb crystal 40 l, 2.5 lb carapils. I added 16 oz dextrose to the boil. OG 1.077. Us05.

I'd like to brew a partigyle, but it'll probably need to wait till the spring.

Thanks again for all the input, sorry it was anti climactic.
 

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