Bottle infections suck!

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homebrewdad

homebrewdad

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I'm having recurring issues with bottle infections. Thought I had fixed this issue with a scorched earth approach (long soak on strong bleach solution, long soak in PBW, long soak in starsan), but it has cropped up again on my bock.

Time to trash all of the bottling gear and start over, I guess.

If you're the sort of person who likes to point and laugh, you might enjoy the blog entry about this.
 
I would think that my silicone tubing should be fine; after all, I can always boil it (which I will do).
Click to expand...

If you intend to replace all of your bottling equipment then replace the tubing as well.
 
not in the point and laugh crowd, but I did read your blog entry. :)

I assume you are sure that the fermentation is finished before you bottle? ( multi-day readings are the same SG)

maybe cut the priming sugar by 10% and see?

I cant beleive that after your 3 step sanitation, that anything could still be living in it. when you bottle, do you clean, sanitize and dry the bottles or just pull them out of a bucket of starsan and fill?
 
I will probably replace the tubing.

Gravity is stable. I never bottle before four weeks in the fermentor, and I always hit my target gravity (or get a bit lower).

I sanitize my bottles with a vinator. and hang them on a sanitized bottle tree just before filling They are filled while still wet.

It's not the priming sugar. I bottle most beers at 2.5-2.8 volumes of CO2. That might result in a little more foam than some care for, but it would not cause gushing in a chilled bottle. Beers are typically fine for several weeks... then the gushing starts.
 
I had a bottle infection problem. It got into 3 or 4 batches of beer. My problem was that the bottles had crud in them. The only thing that giving them a long soak did for me was add a residue film all over the bottle.

I have finally weeded almost all of the cruddy bottles out. I still find one or two per bottling session.

BTW, one thing I discovered after getting a blueberry stuck in a bottling wand, you can take the spring loaded tip off. Maybe you have something stuck in there.

If it is hit-or-miss in bottles after a few weeks, it's likely the bottles. If it is in all the bottles, it's likely equipment.
 
I had infection problems on 10 gallons of brew once... I replaced everything EXCEPT the tubing... *sigh*... it was the tubing...

They make some anti-bacterial tubes for pennies more: http://morebeer.com/category/draft-gas-beverage-tubing.html

good luck!

11302.jpg
 
Beernik said:
I had a bottle infection problem. It got into 3 or 4 batches of beer. My problem was that the bottles had crud in them. The only thing that giving them a long soak did for me was add a residue film all over the bottle.

I have finally weeded almost all of the cruddy bottles out. I still find one or two per bottling session.

BTW, one thing I discovered after getting a blueberry stuck in a bottling wand, you can take the spring loaded tip off. Maybe you have something stuck in there.

If it is hit-or-miss in bottles after a few weeks, it's likely the bottles. If it is in all the bottles, it's likely equipment.
Click to expand...

It's not a crud issue. I rinse my bottles with hot water the moment I pour a beer. Also, once the issue shows up... it shows up in every single bottle.

I completely disassemble my wand, spigot, autosiphon every single time that I bottle.


Cannman - thanks for the advice. Yeah, I'll get new tubing, too, just to be sure.
 
homebrewdad said:
I will probably replace the tubing.

Gravity is stable. I never bottle before four weeks in the fermentor, and I always hit my target gravity (or get a bit lower).

I sanitize my bottles with a vinator. and hang them on a sanitized bottle tree just before filling They are filled while still wet.

It's not the priming sugar. I bottle most beers at 2.5-2.8 volumes of CO2. That might result in a little more foam than some care for, but it would not cause gushing in a chilled bottle. Beers are typically fine for several weeks... then the gushing starts.
Click to expand...

When you say "hit your target gravity" do you test gravity over multiple days to ensure it is stable, or just test once and bottle if it is at the predicted gravity from your software?
 
pdxal said:
When you say "hit your target gravity" do you test gravity over multiple days to ensure it is stable, or just test once and bottle if it is at the predicted gravity from your software?
Click to expand...

A long time ago, I would take multiple gravity samples. Nowadays, I only take gravity when I bottle, unless I'm doing something on a tight schedule and I'm not 100% sure that gravity is stable.

Take my bock, for instance. WLP920 took it from 1.077 down to 1.017. Listed attenuation for the strain is 66%-73%; I got 78%. If you're telling me that fermentation was still going on, I'll smile politely and go on about my business.

Some are rebrews, with yeasts I use often - and again, four plus weeks into fermentation, I'm extremely confident that gravity is stable.
 
Get a kegging system, kegging is so much better. A, its one giant bottle to clean, it is so much less labor. B. There is minimal chance of infection, theres no additional fermentables added and its kept in the 30s where growth is very slow. C. You can always bottle from a force carbed keg if you want to give some away, or cellar some. And once you get the technique down, its always good. D. Kegging takes up space, but so does keeping cases of bottles in the garage. And empties that were never rinsed well at 2am.

Unfortunately its expensive.

Are you sure your beer is not infected before you bottle? If you leave a beer in secondary for a month, does it go off? Have you looked at your fermentation setup for a possible brett/wild yeast infection?
 
giraffe said:
Get a kegging system, kegging is so much better. A, its one giant bottle to clean, it is so much less labor. B. There is minimal chance of infection, theres no additional fermentables added and its kept in the 30s where growth is very slow. C. You can always bottle from a force carbed keg if you want to give some away, or cellar some. And once you get the technique down, its always good. D. Kegging takes up space, but so does keeping cases of bottles in the garage. And empties that were never rinsed well at 2am.

Unfortunately its expensive.

Are you sure your beer is not infected before you bottle? If you leave a beer in secondary for a month, does it go off? Have you looked at your fermentation setup for a possible brett/wild yeast infection?
Click to expand...

It never fails. There are three things certain in life: death, taxes, and "kegging, hurr!" in HBT bottling threads.

Okay, I'll bite.

Number one, I drink 4-5 beers per week. It takes me a long time to get through a batch of beer, so I give the majority away. Can't do that if I keg unless I get a bottle filler of some sort... and yep, I'm still bottling.

Number two, I enjoy having a variety of beers on hand. I'd need a minimum of four kegs, and really, six plus. I simply do not have the money for a massive keezer, multiple kegs, multiple taps, etc.

In other words, kegging isn't really feasible for me on a financial or practical scale.

As for your on topic advice - yes, I'm sure the beer is not infected prior to bottling. I don't secondary. I ferment in glass, which is exceedingly easy to clean and sanitize. Beers that I leave longer than four weeks ought to show signs of infection prior to packaging, but they do not... it's definitely in the bottling gear.
 
Thats all fair, and while you are sure nothing has gone off, if you get bacteria or yeast into the beer at all in the primary, there may not be enough fermentables left, and so much yeast to compete against, in order to foul the beer noticably. But when you add fresh fermentables in, warm it up, and it has to complete with a small amount of tired yeast, its a different story.

Im suspicious, cause all the bottles are going off, not just a couple (therefore probably not the bottle sanitation) , and your general sanitation sounds fine. Most homebrewers I know, who bottle, though, have perenial problems, especially in warm weather when there is a greater risk; it requires a higher level of sanitation. Is the room you are transferring in free of dust? Are there pets? I should be easy to sterilize a racking cane, bucket and tube, and you sound like you are being thourough.

What is the ph of your stan san solution, if you arent using enough it doesnt work at all. I believe it has to be under a ph of 3 to be effective as a sanitizer.
 
giraffe said:
Thats all fair, and while you are sure nothing has gone off, if you get bacteria or yeast into the beer at all in the primary, there may not be enough fermentables left, and so much yeast to compete against, in order to foul the beer noticably. But when you add fresh fermentables in, warm it up, and it has to complete with a small amount of tired yeast, its a different story.

Im suspicious, cause all the bottles are going off, not just a couple (therefore probably not the bottle sanitation) , and your general sanitation sounds fine. Most homebrewers I know, who bottle, though, have perenial problems, especially in warm weather when there is a greater risk; it requires a higher level of sanitation. Is the room you are transferring in free of dust? Are there pets? I should be easy to sterilize a racking cane, bucket and tube, and you sound like you are being thourough.

What is the ph of your stan san solution, if you arent using enough it doesnt work at all. I believe it has to be under a ph of 3 to be effective as a sanitizer.
Click to expand...

Haven't measured the starsan pH, though I do mix it up fresh for each tie that I bottle - and I always mix it up a tad strong.

Room is clean. No dust, no indoor pets in the house.

Seasonal issues would be one thing, but I've had this problem most of this calendar year - that's not it.

I'm seriously thinking that I may have brett or something similar in my bottling gear.
 
How is the beers clarity? If it is brett or wild yeast after 4 weeks, you should see a yeast haze.
 
giraffe said:
How is the beers clarity? If it is brett or wild yeast after 4 weeks, you should see a yeast haze.
Click to expand...

Clarity is typically excellent, even in very dark beers. I'll occasionally get a little chill haze, but I can usually read newsprint through a pint glass.
 
Well, I think you've got the right plan. The infection could be taking place anywhere in the process. It could be that if your beers sat in the fermenter another couple weeks, the infection would start showing up there.

But, I think I would also start with replacing all the bottling equipment first and work my way backwards.
 
homebrewdad said:
I will probably replace the tubing.

Gravity is stable. I never bottle before four weeks in the fermentor, and I always hit my target gravity (or get a bit lower).

I sanitize my bottles with a vinator. and hang them on a sanitized bottle tree just before filling They are filled while still wet.

It's not the priming sugar. I bottle most beers at 2.5-2.8 volumes of CO2. That might result in a little more foam than some care for, but it would not cause gushing in a chilled bottle. Beers are typically fine for several weeks... then the gushing starts.
Click to expand...

Facing EXACT SAME issue, with frighteningly similar points you've already made. I want multiple styles on hand, cannot afford kegging, everything is fine for SEVERAL weeks in cellar (which is rather warm at 68-72°F) then without *ANY* flavor change noticed I get slow foaming on opening cellar temp or week-long chilled bottles. As time progresses, the foaming gets a little worse but nothing that forcefully blows out when opened.

I wash and sanitize both before and after bottling, with the exception of not running a brush through the racking cane, bottling wand, or tubing.

But if it were infection I really would have expected sour or off flavors, or something visible in the bottle (haze, white rings, white rabbits, whatever).

Following this to see what happens. May get new spigot, wand, racking cane and tubing myself.
 
homebrewdad -- i bottle a lot. for me i learned that i needed to be very very careful about reusing yeast if i'm bottling. i will save yeast from a starter of fresh yeast but once and that's it. it seemed to help. i don't know if this will help in your case or not.

kegging does solve the problem in some respects, but it is nice to have shelf-stable bottled beer.
 
Are you using tap water to mix your sanitizer?

Have you measured the real volume of your fermenter and bottling bucket, i.e. not relying on the factory graduation marks?

Are you using corn sugar or sucrose?
 
progmac said:
homebrewdad -- i bottle a lot. for me i learned that i needed to be very very careful about reusing yeast if i'm bottling. i will save yeast from a starter of fresh yeast but once and that's it. it seemed to help. i don't know if this will help in your case or not.

kegging does solve the problem in some respects, but it is nice to have shelf-stable bottled beer.
Click to expand...

I used to bottle a lot of beer, and the batches that turned into gushers really made me unhappy. I'd say 1 of 10 would do it. I stopped farming / freezing yeast and the problem seemed to go away. The process of building up a starter from a small amount of saved yeast was introducing / growing bacteria or wild yeast I guess. It's hard to be positive of the cause, but the evidence seemed to point to an issue in the yeast.

homebrewdad said:
It never fails. There are three things certain in life: death, taxes, and "kegging, hurr!" in HBT bottling threads.
Click to expand...

Yea, every bottling thread quickly gets the kegging comments. It might be irritating to you, and it clearly isn't a good solution for you, but it is a great solution for many. This is your thread, but many others are learning here at the same time and kegging might be a good option for them. So, it does warrant a mention. It will make infection problems mostly disappear. Kegging has some of its own challenges, but they are much easier to diagnose and fix than maverick microbes making malarkey in your maibock.
 
As for yeast, I'm a big believer in matching strain to beer. I do harvest off yeast from starters to use again later, but I also use brand new yeast frequently.

For instance, the bock used WLP920 straight from White Labs.

I use sucrose to prime with. I measure my volumes carefully - I have marked my bottling bucket with half gallon intervals (sharpie on the outside of the bucket - you can see the liquid level through the plastic, and thus know how full it is).

I do use tap water for star san.
 
Try this experiment with one of your bottles. Let one of the bottles go flat. Be as sanitary as humanly possible to do this so there is no chance of introducing infected material. Let it sit at room temperature. The signs of an infection should become evident within two weeks if you have do an infection problem.
 
flars said:
Try this experiment with one of your bottles. Let one of the bottles go flat. Be as sanitary as humanly possible to do this so there is no chance of introducing infected material. Let it sit at room temperature. The signs of an infection should become evident within two weeks if you have do an infection problem.
Click to expand...

Not if the infection is simply a wild yeast. It's already showing the signs it would show.

I don't suspect lacto, pedio, etc. There is no pellicle, there are really no off flavors.
 
flars said:
Try this experiment with one of your bottles. Let one of the bottles go flat. Be as sanitary as humanly possible to do this so there is no chance of introducing infected material. Let it sit at room temperature. The signs of an infection should become evident within two weeks if you have do an infection problem.
Click to expand...

I'd be curious to try this with mine. How do you recommend? StarSan the bottle entirely, and opener, and open it and airlock it or sanitized Al foil?
 
HomebrewDad, been reading some interesting things others have said about bottle conditioning, typical English yeasts, causing this issue. I thought my problem was similarly related but have had Foam>4Wks issue with German Hefe strain as well as the 3 English strains I've used. See for instance,

bierhaus15 said:
Check out some of the posts from page 40 onward. While I have not experienced that problem with Thames Valley II (as I have yet to bottle with it) there have been problems with gushers, off flavors ect... when bottling with wy1968 and some of the other high flocculating English strains.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/b...files-cybi-other-thoughts-221817/index40.html
Click to expand...

and

http://perfectpint.blogspot.com/2011/02/english-yeast-off-flavor.html
 
balrog said:
HomebrewDad, been reading some interesting things others have said about bottle conditioning, typical English yeasts, causing this issue. I thought my problem was similarly related but have had Foam>4Wks issue with German Hefe strain as well as the 3 English strains I've used. See for instance,



and

http://perfectpint.blogspot.com/2011/02/english-yeast-off-flavor.html
Click to expand...

Thanks for following up.

I'm seeing this issue with all sorts of yeast, though. English ale, German lager, Irish ale.
 
cannman said:
Woah wait, tap water and sanitizer is a no-no??? :confused:
Click to expand...

If the tap water has too much CA or carbonates or hardness it can cause the resultant StarSan to be out of the PH range that makes it a sanitizer. *USUALLY* it would produce a cloudy mixture immediately.
 
Are you experiencing certain over-carbonation or just gushing? Do you store your beer cold?

After some extended cold conditioning I'll see the flocculated chill haze proteins clinging to the sides of the bottle after it drops clear and has been sitting undisturbed for some time. In your case, maybe this is providing nucleation points for the beer to over-foam after extended cold conditioning, and these proteins didn't have time to form in younger bottles.
 
smizak said:
Are you experiencing certain over-carbonation or just gushing? Do you store your beer cold?

After some extended cold conditioning I'll see the flocculated chill haze proteins clinging to the sides of the bottle after it drops clear and has been sitting undisturbed for some time. In your case, maybe this is providing nucleation points for the beer to over-foam after extended cold conditioning, and these proteins didn't have time to form in younger bottles.
Click to expand...

Sadly, it's both. I measure gravity drops in these bottles, so naturally, they are overcarbed.
 
balrog said:
If the tap water has too much CA or carbonates or hardness it can cause the resultant StarSan to be out of the PH range that makes it a sanitizer. *USUALLY* it would produce a cloudy mixture immediately.
Click to expand...

I use IOStar Iodine. Would I experience cloudiness?

(Sorry for hijacking the thread... kinds. All useful information though!)
 
cannman said:
Woah wait, tap water and sanitizer is a no-no??? :confused:
Click to expand...

No its not. You simply need to be sure the pH is low enough. I think star san is effective at a pH of 3.5.


OP: If there are no signs of infection then why are you saying there is an infection? Or did I misunderstand?

Not if the infection is simply a wild yeast. It's already showing the signs it would show.

I don't suspect lacto, pedio, etc. There is no pellicle, there are really no off flavors.
Today 09:57 AM
Click to expand...
 
Hello said:
No its not. You simply need to be sure the pH is low enough. I think star san is effective at a pH of 3.5.


OP: If there are no signs of infection then why are you saying there is an infection? Or did I misunderstand?
Click to expand...

I'm not seeing flavor issues. I'm seeing bottles that seem to be fine start gushing a few weeks down the road. No sourness, tartness, etc.
 
homebrewdad said:
Take my bock, for instance. WLP920 took it from 1.077 down to 1.017. Listed attenuation for the strain is 66%-73%; I got 78%. If you're telling me that fermentation was still going on, I'll smile politely and go on about my business.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that fermentation was still going on. The manufacturer's site lists an average attenuation, but just because you surpass the average does not mean your fermentation is done. Attenuation depends on a lot of things, mash temp (assuming all grain), healthy yeast, fermentation temp, etc. I use S-05 in almost all of my brews and if my memory serves me correct I believe Fermentis lists an average attenuation in the neighborhood of 75%, but I routinely see 83-85% attenuation. Before you go and replace everything, I would take a bottle, let it go flat, and then take a gravity reading. If it is still at 1.017 then you were correct and fermentation was done, but if it is a couple points lower then that could explain your gushing bottles.
 
brdb said:
I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that fermentation was still going on. The manufacturer's site lists an average attenuation, but just because you surpass the average does not mean your fermentation is done. Attenuation depends on a lot of things, mash temp (assuming all grain), healthy yeast, fermentation temp, etc. I use S-05 in almost all of my brews and if my memory serves me correct I believe Fermentis lists an average attenuation in the neighborhood of 75%, but I routinely see 83-85% attenuation. Before you go and replace everything, I would take a bottle, let it go flat, and then take a gravity reading. If it is still at 1.017 then you were correct and fermentation was done, but if it is a couple points lower then that could explain your gushing bottles.
Click to expand...

Okay, it would not be unreasonable to assume ON ONE BATCH. On multiple batches where I hit my target gravity - or exceed it - and leave the beer for at least four weeks before bottling, it's unreasonable to assume that every one of them was still not done (especially with things like English ale yeasts that work hard and fast, then flocc out like bricks).

Gravity is lower in the bottles once this happens. No kidding, that's what's causing the gushing. I get that. What I don't get is what is causing the fermentation. My best guess is a wild yeast in my bottling gear.
 
Well its not bacteria, as there are not off flavors. Its not mutated yeast cause you arent reharvesting. I dont think its wild yeast or brett, cause your beer is clearing in 4 weeks, which if there is enough wild yeast to cause a problem, Id think you couldnt read a newspaper through the bottle. You are convinced you arent over priming. That doesnt leave much.

Do you fine the beers at all? If not, I wonder if cold conditioning in the bottle is dropping out excessive proteins in the bottle, causing nucleation points? Perhaps try something that will drop proteins out, like keiselsol without dropping yeast? This all seems a pretty remote possibility.

You seem convinced you need to replace all your bottling gear because of a brett infection. Brett is mildly hard to get rid off, but really not that hard, what you are doing for cleaning should do the trick. You have disassembled the spigot on your bottling bucket?
 
giraffe said:
Well its not bacteria, as there are not off flavors. Its not mutated yeast cause you arent reharvesting. I dont think its wild yeast or brett, cause your beer is clearing in 4 weeks, which if there is enough wild yeast to cause a problem, Id think you couldnt read a newspaper through the bottle. You are convinced you arent over priming. That doesnt leave much.

Do you fine the beers at all? If not, I wonder if cold conditioning in the bottle is dropping out excessive proteins in the bottle, causing nucleation points? Perhaps try something that will drop proteins out, like keiselsol without dropping yeast? This all seems a pretty remote possibility.

You seem convinced you need to replace all your bottling gear because of a brett infection. Brett is mildly hard to get rid off, but really not that hard, what you are doing for cleaning should do the trick. You have disassembled the spigot on your bottling bucket?
Click to expand...

I used to use Irish moss for kettle fining. The last three batches have been whirlfloc (which I know is the same thing). No fining agents in the fermentor.

I disassemble the spigot, the autosiphon, the bottling wand every single time. A long time ago, I failed on the spigot, and mildew taught me the error of my ways.

I get very little trub in the bottom of my bottles.
 
homebrewdad said:
Okay, it would not be unreasonable to assume ON ONE BATCH. On multiple batches where I hit my target gravity - or exceed it - and leave the beer for at least four weeks before bottling, it's unreasonable to assume that every one of them was still not done (especially with things like English ale yeasts that work hard and fast, then flocc out like bricks).

Gravity is lower in the bottles once this happens. No kidding, that's what's causing the gushing. I get that. What I don't get is what is causing the fermentation. My best guess is a wild yeast in my bottling gear.
Click to expand...
Hitting your target gravity does not really mean anything to be honest. Maybe if you were a professional brewer brewing the same batch over and over then yes of course you are expecting to hit a certain gravity, but with homebrewing I'd be more focused on hitting a gravity that remains stable over the course of a few days (most of us can't control all of the variables that go into determining the FG of a batch, so even on repeat batches the FG can vary). Also, do you ferment at a certain temperature and then possibly bottle condition at a higher temperature?
 

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