Barleywine

I've been working a barleywine / majority ale recipe for a while now, hoping to brew it in the next couple months. My firstborn child is on the way, and I figured it was perfect timing to brew a high gravity beer that I can cellar—hopefully some of it for a full 21 years!

I'm going for more of an English-style barleywine with a couple twists. I want it to be opaque black, lighter on the hops (all bittering and no aroma), and a Belgian character (thus the yeast choice). Here's what I have so far for a 5 gallon batch:

Grain:
15 lbs Pilsner (75%)
3 lbs Munich 20L (15%)
2 lbs Roasted Barley (300L) (10%)

Hops:
3 oz Cascade @ 120 min

Mash:
90 min @ 149 ºF, batch sparged

Boil:
120 min

Yeast:
WLP545 Belgian Strong Ale Yeast

Targets:
OG: 1.108
FG: 1.016
ABV: 12.05%
IBU: 65.84
BU:GU: 0.6 (on par with typical English barleywines)
SRM: 40

I'm also planning on doing probably 2 oz of oak cubes in secondary for 6 months, then bottling and cellaring for at least 6 more months (and hopefully for years).

This beer will be a first for me in several ways:

1. First really high gravity beer (previous high was ~7%)
2. First really dark beer / beer with this much roasted barley (I did one stout early on but it wasn't this dark)
3. First beer on oak
4. First beer for long-term cellaring

I'd love feedback on the recipe as well as any tips on the process. I've been dialing in my system so I'm crossing my fingers that I'll be able to hit all the numbers. I know sanitization + oxygen barrier caps is huge for long-term aging as well.

Thanks in advance!

recommendations from experience:

1) don't go with the roasted barley. It's going to have a huge impact on the beer and it's not going to be much like a barleywine at all.

2) use up to 5% cara/crystal. Seriously, this is a solid idea.

3) I used 1 ounce of medium toasted french oak chips for three weeks and got more flavor in a light ale than I was expecting. If you must, I recommend half an ounce for the time you are looking for.

4) look into either getting a CO2 tank or Vinters Gas to keep the O2 out of your product post fermentation. Money well spent for calming your nerves.

5) In the interest of getting it right the first time, consider an ABV of 10%. It will allow you to cellar it without complicating the yeast issue.

DSorenson, thanks for the feedback! I've done some more research and spent some time thinking about it, and I've reformulated my recipe:

Grain:
12 lbs Maris Otter (70.6%)
2 lbs Crystal 20L (or maybe 60L?) (11.8%)
1 lb Carafa III (5.9%)
2 lbs Cane sugar at end of boil (11.8%)

Hops:
2 oz Cascade (120 min)

Mash:
90 min @ 154 ºF, batch sparged

Boil:
240 min (4 hrs)

Revised targets:
OG: 1.102
FG: 1.026
ABV: 10.05%
IBU: 64.64
SRM: 40

The cane sugar will help me boost the ABV while still allowing me to do a proper full mash on my system. The Maris Otter and Crystal should help boost the body to offset the sugar, as should mashing at a higher temp (154 instead of 149). The Carafa III will cut down the bitterness while still giving me SRM 40 and contributing darker flavors.

The epic boil time is based on some calculations for my system. This will allow me to do a full proper mash and batch sparge, and ensure that I hit all my numbers.

Regarding the oak, from what I've read, the oak will fade over time. Since I'm shooting for long-term aging, wouldn't it make sense to go a bit heavier on the oak and let it fade to the desired level?

Is the CO2 just used for bottling? Or also in secondary? Are there any tips to reduce aeration during transfers?

The 10% ABV target does feel a bit more attainable

Also, is there an "ideal" (term used loosely) mash ratio for barleywines, or higher gravity beers in general? I usually shoot for 1.25.

Thanks again!

Just some thoughts here: 2 lbs of sugar is a lot of sugar and will leave a cider-like flavor in your beer. I would keep the sugar at 5% or less. I recommend dry malt extract instead of sugar, though. All of my huge beers are technically partial mash, since I mash a regular beer's worth of grain, then make up the difference with extract. It will save you a headache.

Also, according to "Vintage Beers" by Patrick Dawson the flavors due to oaking tend to not fade as much as you might think. He even seems to mention that oak becomes, if anything, more prominent as other flavors fade away.

Barleywines are probably best mashed on the thick-side, from 1-1.2 quarts per lb, but do what works best for you. I consider barleywines the big brother of an IPA and Pale Ale, and I mash them as such.

If you go with partial mash, you will not require a four hour boil time: one hour will be more than enough.

Honestly I recommend you read "Vintage Beers". You're choice of cascade hops is a great one because it has a high alpha to beta acid ratio (close to 1:1). The beta acids are the only thing that will provide long term "bitterness" in the form of tannins and interesting flavors as those tannins inevitably oxidize. You also are not required to make a high number of IBUs, 21 years will deteriorate all of them. IBUs only stand a chance to provide a cardboardy flavor when they oxidize. You can actually reduce the effects of that by reducing the IBUs. Your IBU figure is fairly safe.

Your OG is much more reasonable. I think you will appreciate the outcome!

The CO2 is mostly for secondary purging, but I also used vinters gas to purge my bottles before capping.

Skip the cane sugar. If you are at the limit of your system then reduce your cara addition by about half and sub with Amber LME.

Carafa is an interesting idea. Probably won't turn out like a barleywine but I doubt it would taste bad. Consider subbing a small amount of smoke malt instead. Cherry smoked should be mild followed by oak as the next most intense and then the german beech the most intense.

I think your mash temp is too high. I would do this at 150. I'm not sure if you'll actually have an issue though since you have such a big beer. It's possible to hit your yeast's alcohol limit regardless of mash temp.

Boil is way too long. 90 minute boil is going to be plenty. I'm not sure why you would want to boil for that long. You would definitely have to top it up or you'd be left with a syrup. Would be better to boil a smaller volume and top off the fermenter with boiled water.

Wort oxidation is a myth. CO2 for kegging long term. Just set to around 20psi and burp the purge valve a few times then take it off the gas. Once a month come back and purge the keg and repeat the process.

Water to grist doesn't mean much anymore. Before malts were processed as much it made a difference in mash ph. I run thick mashes for maltier beers because I like to think it tastes chewier but I don't have any science to back it up. I also shoot for 1.25 because it leaves me room to correct temperature. When it gets colder I use 1.5 because the thermal mass will hold temps better and because I"m doing decoction mashes that lose a lot of liquid.

RonPopeil said:

Wort oxidation is a myth. CO2 for kegging long term. Just set to around 20psi and burp the purge valve a few times then take it off the gas. Once a month come back and purge the keg and repeat the process.

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Sir, could you elaborate on this?

If you are referring to hot side aeration, AJdeLange can even give you the chemical formula for the reaction takes place- but I don't think that's what the OP is worried about.

If you are referring to the oxygenation of cool wort, then we would probably agree it's a must for yeast health.

If you were referring to the oxidation of beer during long term storage, I suggest you read "vintage beers" by Patrick Dawson. It's inevitable and has benefits in some beer.

Thanks for the responses, guys.

So you think even with a maltier backbone the sugar will change the flavor too much? I can back off the sugar a bit, I suppose. Call me stubborn, but I'd really prefer to avoid adding extract to boost the gravity. I'd really like to keep this completely all-grain, and I'm fine settling on a lower OG if that's what it means.

I was considering the higher mash temp to add body and offset the effects of using sugar, but now that I think about it, that will reduce the amount of fermentable sugars and bring down my final ABV. 149-150 sounds about right, now.

I'll go over the numbers for my system again; I'm sure I can bring that boil time down to something more reasonable.

RonPopeil said:

Carafa is an interesting idea. Probably won't turn out like a barleywine but I doubt it would taste bad.

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I'm not trying to stick super close to a particular style, so I'm fine with not turning out like a "typical" barleywine. Not many barleywines are black (although I've seen a few), so I'm already on the fringes

DSorenson said:

Honestly I recommend you read "Vintage Beers".

Click to expand...

Sounds like I have some reading to do!

Thanks again for the help!

DSorenson said:

Sir, could you elaborate on this?

If you are referring to hot side aeration, AJdeLange can even give you the chemical formula for the reaction takes place- but I don't think that's what the OP is worried about.

If you are referring to the oxygenation of cool wort, then we would probably agree it's a must for yeast health.

If you were referring to the oxidation of beer during long term storage, I suggest you read "vintage beers" by Patrick Dawson. It's inevitable and has benefits in some beer.

Click to expand...

I was talking about hot side aeration. That's why I mentioned purging the keg with CO2 for long term storage. And I'm sure it can be proven on paper but the premise I'm working off of is "it's really hard to screw up your beer". It's repeated time and time again and nearly always holds true. Oxidizing hot wort isn't easy. I always stir my wort around my immersion chiller and have gotten quite vigorous with it and I've never had oxidation issues. Autolysis is another one. It's just not a problem at this level of brewing.

Oxygenation of wort is important in regards to attenuation but most people's ability to accomplish this properly is quite poor. Most agree that in order to do this properly you need pure O2. Personally, I just let it splash around and foam up when I transfer to the fermenter. It does aerate the wort as evidenced by the froth and for the the trouble of doing it properly I'd just rather not bother. Just pitch a larger starter.

People already approach this hobby with a fair amount of trepidation. Some people I talk to seem to think it's sorcery. It's best not to implant more concerns for people. Every time someone comes here with an issue related to these things the canonized mantra RDWHAHB is about the only help they're given. I'd rather have people assume that their beers are perfectly fine, because most of the time they are, rather than worry about all sorts of utter BS that they will likely not encounter during their brewing career.

Alright, I read "Vintage Beer" by Patrick Dawson and loved it. I'll have to buy a copy to reference later on (just borrowed it from the library, but took notes). I also discovered that one of my equations was wrong, throwing off my mash volumes and thus boil times (although Patrick Dawson does say in the book that some of those big beers good for aging have boil times of 4+ hours). Here's where I'm at with the recipe now, and I'm feeling pretty good about it. Planning on brewing on Saturday.

Grain:
15 lbs Maris Otter (75%)
4 lbs Crystal 80L (20%)
1 lb Carafa III (5%)

Hops:
2 oz Cascade (AA 7.7, BA 5.6) (120 min)

Mash:
90 min @ 154 ºF, batch sparged

Boil:
120 min (2 hours)

Yeast:
WLP500 Monastery Ale Yeast, 0.5 gal starter with 0.5 lbs DME

Targets:
OG: 1.100
FG: 1.019
ABV: 10.71%
IBU: 42.38
BU:GU: 0.423
SRM: 40

My pre-boil SG target is 1.083 (7.4 gal), and I have some DME on hand in case I miss.

2 weeks in primary, 6 months secondary, bottle aging for hopefully 21 years. Still planning on oak cubes in secondary. Maybe cut it back to 1 oz?

Thanks again everyone for your feedback! I'm super excited to try my hand at this, and I'm thinking of making it a yearly thing so I can improve it over time, and have a steady supply decades from now

Four pounds of crystal is a lot. I'd consider replacing some for sugar to lighten the body (unlike all the previous comments). If you can make two pounds of invert syrup #2 that would go well with one and a half pounds of crystal malt. Another alternative is to replace malt with flaked maize or flaked rice.

Have you checked Eldridge Pope Hardy Ale? Sounds around the ballpark of what you have been thinking about in some ways. The 2000 version had an OG of 1.115 and finished just over 11%abv. Uses flaked wheat.
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/lets-brew-wednesday-eldridge-pope-1967.html

Or the stronger Scottish ale by Youngers... OG of 1.096 including just over 40% flaked maize plus a tad of invert sugars. Might be going a bit too far but worth a look for inspiration.
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/lets-brew-wednesday-1913-william_28.html

4 lbs of crystal is a ton. 2 oz of cascade is very little.

I would cut down to 1-1.5 lbs, and up to 4-6 oz.

Welp, I bought the grain today, so we'll see how 4 lbs of crystal tastes I'm planning on brewing this beer once a year, tweaking as I go, so I'll have a steady supply years down the road and be able to improve it constantly. I'm totally fine using more base grain next time, but hey, homebrewing is all about experimentation, right?

moreb33rplz, I only used 2 oz of Cascade because I'm going for relatively low bitterness (see IBU and BU:GU targets). I want enough to act as a preservative, but let the other flavors shine through. This isn't an American barleywine

Thanks everyone for your feedback and here's hoping brew day goes well tomorrow!