Bru'n water questions

Hi All I just got my water report back from ward. And Have been studying up using the Bru'n water knowledge section. Let me start off by saying I do 5 gallon BIAB style and have a few question that pertain to my water report and using it with BIAB and the Bru'n Water spread sheet.

1) When entering in my date into the Bru'n water spread sheet and it ask for how much water for mash and sparge should I just put 0 on sparge and my starting water volume (7) on Mash water?

2) Can I still use the sparge acid calculator for my style of brewing?

3) What are the major water additions you use when brewing? Im looking to finally buy my additions and I want to make sure I get the primary ones. Do I need all of them that are listed on Bru'n?

4) How does my water report look and what would you suggest. It appears to me that I will need to use RO or distilled water to diluting to get my bicarbonate down. Any other suggestions? Thanks

pH 8.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 290
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.48
Cations / Anions, me/L 4.6 / 5.1

ppm
Sodium, Na 33
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 45
Magnesium, Mg 10
Total Hardness, CaCO3 154
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.6 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 6
Chloride, Cl 63
Carbonate, CO3 9
Bicarbonate, HCO3 154
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 142
Total Phosphorus, P 0.34
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

Hi All I just got my water report back from ward. And Have been studying up using the Bru'n water knowledge section. Let me start off by saying I do 5 gallon BIAB style and have a few question that pertain to my water report and using it with BIAB and the Bru'n Water spread sheet.

1) When entering in my date into the Bru'n water spread sheet and it ask for how much water for mash and sparge should I just put 0 on sparge and my starting water volume (7) on Mash water?

2) Can I still use the sparge acid calculator for my style of brewing?

3) What are the major water additions you use when brewing? Im looking to finally buy my additions and I want to make sure I get the primary ones. Do I need all of them that are listed on Bru'n?

4) How does my water report look and what would you suggest. It appears to me that I will need to use RO or distilled water to diluting to get my bicarbonate down. Any other suggestions? Thanks

pH 8.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 290
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.48
Cations / Anions, me/L 4.6 / 5.1

ppm
Sodium, Na 33
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 45
Magnesium, Mg 10
Total Hardness, CaCO3 154
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.6 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 6
Chloride, Cl 63
Carbonate, CO3 9
Bicarbonate, HCO3 154
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 142
Total Phosphorus, P 0.34
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

1) Yes if you mash with your full volume then use the full volume as your mash volume.
2) You would use the acid section for the mash.
3) I use phosphoric acid (to bring down the pH if needed), Gypsum, calcium chloride, and pickling lime (to bring up the pH if needed), epsom salt, canning salt, and occasionally baking soda.
4) I would say your water seems pretty good for darker beers... for lighter beers you would want to cut or use all RO water I think. I suppose you could just use acid to overcome the bicarbonate... I use all RO water for all my beers.

I tend to keep it simple: gypsum, calcium chloride, pickling salt, baking soda, Epsom Salt, and Chalk. I use pH 5.2 instead of messing with acid and lime additions, but you HCO3 is double my tap water...

Word of advice: lately I've tried scaling back on additions, figuring as long as I'm in the acceptable range that's fine and less miscellaneous in my beer. I've found that to not be the case. I would recommend adjusting your additions to get you to the middle of the typical ranges to start.

The additions you make to your water are based on what you are trying to brew, to try and duplicate a particular beer or style you need to know what kind of water was used. If you are wanting to make a Belgium clone you would need different additions than I would since I use filtered Chicago tap water. I know some of the brewery programs list the test results of the major brewing areas and then what you need to do to recreate that style.

johngaltsmotor said:

I tend to keep it simple: gypsum, calcium chloride, pickling salt, baking soda, Epsom Salt, and Chalk. I use pH 5.2 instead of messing with acid and lime additions, but you HCO3 is double my tap water...

Word of advice: lately I've tried scaling back on additions, figuring as long as I'm in the acceptable range that's fine and less miscellaneous in my beer. I've found that to not be the case. I would recommend adjusting your additions to get you to the middle of the typical ranges to start.

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Just as an FYI, 5.2 is nothing more than a buffering agent and may actually be rendering your other additions worthless I'm no chemistry expert or water pro but IMO and experience there is no need to be even using 5.2 if you are modifying your water as per a water calculator giving you specific inputs.

I use calcium chloride and calcium sulfate (gypsum) in the mash. I have other things to raise mash pH, but I've never needed it as most often the mash pH is too high, and not too low.

I have phosphoric acid and lactic acid on hand, and used to use that for acidifying sparge water, but now I sparge with 100% RO water so don't use that anymore. I would use it to lower the mash pH if I needed to, though!

to answer specifically:
1. Yep, that's right.
2. No, you're not sparging so just do the mash part
3. Answered above. You generally don't need anything except calcium chloride or gypsum and lactic acid.
4. The water looks good for stout but it's too alkaline for many other styles. I'd suggest diluting with RO water. Bru'n water has a dilution tool that I use all the time to mix my tap water with RO water.

Why do so many people use RO water instead of distilled. It seems to me it would be better just starting with no ions instead of the few in RO water. Is it just preference? Also when is the best time to make my additions ? Can anyone walk me through the steps of when the make their additions. Would I just add them all to my starting water seeing how I do Biab . And when should I take my ph readings ?

TaylorBrewed said:

Why do so many people use RO water instead of distilled. It seems to me it would be better just starting with no ions instead of the few in RO water. Is it just preference? Also when is the best time to make my additions ? Can anyone walk me through the steps of when the make their additions. Would I just add them all to my starting water seeing how I do Biab . And when should I take my ph readings ?

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I do it because it's easier for me to produce RO water than it is for me to produce distilled water.

mors said:

I do it because it's easier for me to produce RO water than it is for me to produce distilled water.

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Me, too. And if you have to buy it, RO water is cheaper. I think it's about $1.75 for a big jug of RO water at the 'water machine' at the grocery store, but about $1 gallon for distilled.

For the first few times, I'd use bru'nwater to guestimate your additions, and add them when you mix up your water. Check the mash pH about 10 minutes in.

If you're using plain RO water to sparge with, then the only water you need to adjust is the mash water. In that case, which is better for attaining the correct mash pH, phosphoric acid, lactic acid, or acidulated malt?

If using a spreadsheet to estimate the mash pH, how close is the estimate to measured results? Which spreadsheet are you using?

Do you usually have to make adjustments to the mash pH after you've mashed in?

If so, generally speaking, in which direction are you making your adjustments?

At which point(s) during the mash do you measure the mash pH?

Does the pH change much over an hour long mash?

How far off does the pH need to be before you start making adjustments?

TaylorBrewed said:

Hi All I just got my water report back from ward. And Have been studying up using the Bru'n water knowledge section. Let me start off by saying I do 5 gallon BIAB style and have a few question that pertain to my water report and using it with BIAB and the Bru'n Water spread sheet.

1) When entering in my date into the Bru'n water spread sheet and it ask for how much water for mash and sparge should I just put 0 on sparge and my starting water volume (7) on Mash water?

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Yes.

TaylorBrewed said:

2) Can I still use the sparge acid calculator for my style of brewing?

Click to expand...

No reason to use this. You do not have a separate sparge. Do all your calculations/changes for the mash.

TaylorBrewed said:

3) What are the major water additions you use when brewing? Im looking to finally buy my additions and I want to make sure I get the primary ones. Do I need all of them that are listed on Bru'n?

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neild5 mentioned trying to match the water profile of a particular region/brewery (my interpretation of what he wrote). You can also just use the settings in Bru'nwater for the type of beer, e.g., Amber Malty or Yellow Balanced.

Personally, I adjust my pH first, using the additive that will also help along some other parameter. Because I need to lower my pH, I add CaCL2 if I need to bump up the Calcium and Chloride or CaSO4 if I need to bump up the Calcium and Sulfate. Then I adjust the pH the rest of the way using Lactic Acid.

Thanks for asking thoughs questions mike I had the same ones. I hope some can respond to them .

MikeInMKE said:

If you're using plain RO water to sparge with, then the only water you need to adjust is the mash water. In that case, which is better for attaining the correct mash pH, phosphoric acid, lactic acid, or acidulated malt?

If using a spreadsheet to estimate the mash pH, how close is the estimate to measured results? Which spreadsheet are you using?

Do you usually have to make adjustments to the mash pH after you've mashed in?

If so, generally speaking, in which direction are you making your adjustments?

At which point(s) during the mash do you measure the mash pH?

Does the pH change much over an hour long mash?

How far off does the pH need to be before you start making adjustments?

Click to expand...

Yes, correct. If you're sparging with 100% RO water you don't have to add your adjustments, but you certainly can. The calcium chloride or gypsum added won't hurt, and many people find it easier to treat all of their water at once in the HLT.

You can use lactic acid or acidulated malt (basically the same thing, as acid malt is a source of lactic acid) or phosphoric acid to lower pH- but if you're needing quite a bit phosphoric won't have a flavor impact the way lactic acid and/or acid malt will.

When I use Bru'n water, I almost always nail my pH within .05. With EZ water, it's always high- often as much as .2- so I don't use EZ water any more. Kai Troester's spreadsheet (braukaiser) has been dead on with bru'nwater.

I almost never have to adjust mash pH once I've mashed in, when I predict it with bru'nwater, but I do have a handy chart in the brewery to tell me how much phosphoric or lactic acid I need to use to drop the pH every .1. You should never have to raise the pH, but I guess it could be possible. I just can't think of any scenarios where you would need to.

The pH does change over an hour long mash- downward. Not markedly so, but definitely it does. I posted recently about a mash where I checked the pH 10 minutes in, 20 minutes in, at sparging, at boiling, and at chilling. The pH was much lower after chilling. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/mash-boil-ph-425352/

I missed a question, as to how far the pH is off before adjusting.

For me, I've understood that an "acceptable" mash pH is 5.2-5.8 or so, with 5.3-5.5 being "optimal". (room temperature measurements).

So if I'm somewhere in the 5.2-5.6 area I don't get too alarmed but make notes for next time so when I make that recipe again I can adjust it for next time if it's a bit higher than I want.

Yooper said:

The pH does change over an hour long mash- downward. Not markedly so, but definitely it does. I posted recently about a mash where I checked the pH 10 minutes in, 20 minutes in, at sparging, at boiling, and at chilling. The pH was much lower after chilling. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/mash-boil-ph-425352/

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Lorena, that is not the pH response I typically see in my mashes. I often see a RISE in mash pH of up to 0.1 units during the mash. I use a RIMS, so the wort is very thoroughly mixed in my system. I'm curious if you are using a static mash and mixing it? Maybe its that the distribution of whatever minerals and acids is not thorough? Is that possible?

mabrungard said:

Lorena, that is not the pH response I typically see in my mashes. I often see a RISE in mash pH of up to 0.1 units during the mash. I use a RIMS, so the wort is very thoroughly mixed in my system. I'm curious if you are using a static mash and mixing it? Maybe its that the distribution of whatever minerals and acids is not thorough? Is that possible?

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I have a HERMS, Martin. I took the measurements carefully, at 70 degrees, and made sure the pH meter was maintaining calibration by rechecking in the buffers. I assumed that this was typical, and that's why I started that thread to find out if it really was.

It definitely dropped, and the wort was well mixed the entire time except for perhaps the very first reading at 10 minutes (when the HERMS had only been going for about 5 minutes after mashing in).

Yopper, how do you measure you liquid acid

TaylorBrewed said:

Yopper, how do you measure you liquid acid

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I have a kids' medicine cup and dropper. the med cup works for bigger additions like 15-30 mls, and the dropper for up to 10ml.

Thanks. I just ordered my ph meter and got my water results back. Can't wait to actually try out this water chem stuff. I have always thought my beer tasted fine. It's funny how I mess around with the bru'n water spreadsheet with older recipes and see how off on ph I really was. Can't wait to make better beer!

Yooper, thanks for answering. I owe you a beer.