Dupont yeast stalled. Okay to leave at high temp?

It's my first time using Dupont yeast. I brewed a saison, OG of 1052 and pitched a 1L starter of 3724, which I let go for about 24 hours on a stir plate. The plate kicked the stir bar some time overnight, so the growth may not have been what I was expecting.

I started fermentation at 74 until I got krausen, about 24 hours, and increased it to 90 over the course of the next few days. After 10 days, it's slowed way down, and is sitting at 1030. I swirled the carboy and increased the temp to 95.

I don't want to pitch another yeast. I'd like to let the primary strain finish out. I don't mind waiting a while for it to finish. What I am worried about is having it sit at 95 deg. for weeks. Is that a problem? Do I need to worry about autolysis more at this sustained high temperature?

I think a week or two should be fine. Just to check though, are you measuring your FG with a hydrometer, or a refractometer? I would expect 3724 to have no problem finishing up at 95F.

Hydrometer. I remember reading that refractometers aren't accurate when alcohol is in solution, so I've never gotten one. A hydrometer seems to work just fine for me, plus I have enough to have a taste of the beer while I'm at it.

Typical issue even though you followed the general recommendation. I did the same thing and had the same problem. Be patient and it will finish and finish low, like 1.004-6 easily but it can take a month, mine did

As per a conversation with wyeast directly from someone on the AHA boards, Wyeast recommends pitching at 90 and keeping it there to avoid the typical stall and it will dutifully finish in about 10 days. I believe AmandaK (also a member here) was the one that spoke with Wyeast.

Thanks for the info, guys. I'll let it ride at 95 and check it in a week or two.

duboman, I'd heard that pitching it hot helped cut down on fermentation time, too. I also read (in Farmhouse Ales, I think) that this yeast gets more phenolic around 90 and is fruitier around 80, so I decided to start low and raise it up. Next time I'll just go for it and start out at 90 to see what happens.

Does this strain not produce a lot of hot fusel alcohols when started above 70?

I typically use White Labs 565 on Saisons at about 1.055-1.060 follow this process:

1 tune in a 1 liter starter for 12 hours on stir plate. Aerate 20 minutes with aquarium pump and stone and then Pitch at 67-68 F and let rest at that temp for first 2 days. On Day 3 I set my temp controller for 80 F and the ferm temp plus electric ferm wrap takes the temp up to 80 in 12-18 hours. I tend to hit 1.004-1.008 by Day 4 and rest for a few more days for clean up. The yeast mostly flocs out by day 7-8 but sometimes I'll crash cool for a day to help and then I'll keg. Usually drinking by day 10...fresh and wonderful!

Have never tried pitching warmer but I would think that would lead to hot alcohols in the finished product.

I have found its important to aerate/oxygenate properly for these strains and to also make sure to get the temp up to 80+ as soon as the main growth phase is over with (24-48 hours into fermentation). Spending to long below 80 (after growth phase) causes this strain to want to flocculate and head south (go dormant) hence the stall.

I don't really know, I thnk it's a bad idea in general to pitch any beer much warmer than 68, so I've never done it. If any yeast was safe to pitch at 70+ it would be saison yeast, but I have no data.

My experience with the 3724 is it definitely likes it hot, esters produced are definitely strong but not off putting and I did not experience fusel alcohol issues the second time I used this yeast with the recommendation of pitching hot from wyeast. The second time brewed I also experienced no stall so there is something to this process.

My first batch stalled, pitched at 65, went to 70 then 80, and once it got to 95 it began chugging away again. Finished in 4 weeks.

The second batch was pitched at 85 then to 95 at 3 days and finished in 10 days. This batch had a more more pronounced Saison type flavor profile with more Farmhouse funk for sure, the first batch was considerably more even and mellow.

Side by side the second is superior to the first with identical recipes. Both were bottle conditioned 3 weeks at 3vols

Edit: 565 and 3724 are not the same strains and I have no experience using 565.

That's something I've been wondering--do subsequent pitches of the same yeast result in less of a chance that the yeast will stall? I'm planning on using this yeast again with some lacto. I'm going to brew a larger flanders red-style beer, starting at about 1.070. I've heard the Dupont strain compared to a red wine yeast, so I'm hoping the combination of high temperature, this yeast, and lacto will produce a nice flanders red-style beer.

I have heard that subsequent pitches have less of a chance of stalling, but I've not read any anecdotal evidence supporting that.

My first batch stalled right at 1030 and then finished when I got the temps into the 90s. I harvested and washed the yeast from that batch and I just bottled my 2nd brew which did not stall. I pitched that one in the 70s and ramped it into the high 80s. My experience with the Dupont strain is that it needs some time to age before it really comes into its own. Even after bulk conditioning for almost 2 months I feel like it needs a few months in the bottle. The last couple of bottles from batch 1 were epic! Prior to that it just wasn't right, like pico de gallo or beans that need a few days for all the flavors to really come together.
If your batch appears to have stalled just give it time and it will slowly finish nice and dry. Both my batches hit 1004.

I've used Dupont 3 times, they all started hard and fast and stalled within 2-4 days at around 1030-1035. But they also all finished dry (1005-1007) after a period of weeks at relatively high temp - 28-32c.
I've not tried pitching at high temperature.
Bottom line is as long as your mash yielded highly fermentable wort the yeast will get the job done with time and heat.
My Saisons have been among the best beers I've made, definitely no off falvours despite long periods fermenting at high temps.

I just finished a saison with OG 1.062 at 1.007 after exactly a month of fermentation with 3724, pitched around 79 F (26° C) and yeast never stalled, slowed down after three days when was around 1.035 and then went down 0.001 per day until finish, staying in the range from 26 C to 28 C (79 to 82 F).
So in my opinion a higher temperature at the beginning allows to avoid rousing temperatures over 90 F to finish, which is better to me

How much is everyone oxygenating? I'm wondering if more o2 will help. I haven't used this yeast yet but am ready to try, and thinking more o2 might help, say two minutes with my Stone.

Don't oxyenate at this point, you'll oxidize the beer. You really can only add O2 when the yeast is replicating (synthesizing sterols) which is really just at the beginning, post pitch period/lag phase. For big beers, this can take a while, hence why you sometimes see barleywines with a second shot of O2 at 12-18hrs. That's not happening now, so you should avoid it.

For what it's worth, I oxygenated 90 sec. with a stone. I don't know the flow rate, but I use a low flow rate--enough so that there is a slight "fizz" of small bubbles on the surface of the wort. I figure that any more than that will be letting O2 out into the air, and not getting it in the beer. I normally do 60 sec. for a beer of this gravity, but I had also read that this yeast likes extra oxygen.

This is a bit off topic, but I've been thinking/reading about saisons for the last few days, and I wish I hadn't waited so long to start this one. I think I'll repitch this yeast into a 1040-ish table saison. The other portion is going into a flanders red type of beer with the dregs of some ECY23. And, to think, just earlier this week I was thinking of taking a break from brewing for a month or two!

duboman said:

Edit: 565 and 3724 are not the same strains and I have no experience using 565.

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based on what do you say this?

every source i've seen says that they are the same - the Dupont strain.

sweetcell said:

based on what do you say this?

every source i've seen says that they are the same - the Dupont strain.

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That's my understanding too...

Look http://www.mrmalty.com/white-labs.php

If you look at 565 on the link above it lists its the DuPont strain and that the wyeast equivalent is 3724.

Also read both the descriptions on the yeast co's respective websites. They both describe similar results with stalls when temps are low, etc.

loctones said:

For what it's worth, I oxygenated 90 sec. with a stone. I don't know the flow rate, but I use a low flow rate--enough so that there is a slight "fizz" of small bubbles on the surface of the wort. I figure that any more than that will be letting O2 out into the air, and not getting it in the beer. I normally do 60 sec. for a beer of this gravity, but I had also read that this yeast likes extra oxygen.

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I use the same technique with the flow rate. Even with 90 seconds, you still stalled out? I have started going to 2 minutes for oxygenation for everything. Wonder if that will help at all.

sweetcell said:

based on what do you say this?

every source i've seen says that they are the same - the Dupont strain.

Click to expand...

IIRC there was discussion on an AHA board regarding this. While they are both DuPont Strains they are not identical.

565 produces more peppery, spicy notes and 3724 is more fruity under similar conditions. Also, 565 is known to not require the same heat or experience stalling.

If I remember I will try to hunt down the link and post it.

tgmartin000 said:

Even with 90 seconds, you still stalled out? I have started going to 2 minutes for oxygenation for everything. Wonder if that will help at all.

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Yep, still stalled, or, slowed dramatically. I may not have pitched as much yeast as I expected, though, because my stir plate kicked the stir bar in the starter some time over night.

duboman said:

IIRC there was discussion on an AHA board regarding this. While they are both DuPont Strains they are not identical.

565 produces more peppery, spicy notes and 3724 is more fruity under similar conditions. Also, 565 is known to not require the same heat or experience stalling.

If I remember I will try to hunt down the link and post it.

Click to expand...

I used 3724 and not 565, FWIW. I would love to see the link if you find it.

loctones said:

Yep, still stalled, or, slowed dramatically. I may not have pitched as much yeast as I expected, though, because my stir plate kicked the stir bar in the starter some time over night.



I used 3724 and not 565, FWIW. I would love to see the link if you find it.

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So i did some searching through alot of threads and cannot seem to locate the exact thread.............so,

I did the next best thing. I contacted both Wyeast and Whitelabs. neither will actually state that they have genetically tested each other's strain to actually verify identity, nor confirm or deny the original strain came from the identical source but both state they are in fact Dupont.

One curious note in the replies I received though was the following: Quoted from email: "but chances are that even if they started out as the same strain, there is bound to be some mutation/drift between the two companies over the years so they may be slightly different now. "

So I guess my previous statement will stand corrected that yes, I guess they are the same, but in reality, they may not necessarily be the same any longer?

Thanks for the follow-up, duboman! Much appreciated. It does make sense that the characteristics may drift over time. I'll stick with 3724 for now, and give 565 on the next batch of saisons that I make.

That yeast strain makes me want to strangle someone! I've tried every supposed trick in the book to get it to ferment out faster; I'm convinced that that strain is some sort of sick, twisted evolutionary joke! -My theory is that the yeast produces more acid than it can actual deal with and temporarily asphyxiates on it's own acid waste products. (Watch the ph drop like a ROCK during a Dupont fermentation.)

That yeast will wake up when and only when it feels like and the high temp bit doesn't do a dang bit of good. I think it has to get over being shocked by the rapid PH decline. Dupont and Duval should switch names because that yeast strain IS THE DEVIL!



Adam

If you take 3724 and divide it by 6 (the increase in cell count you'll get pitching directly to well aerated wort), you get 620.666!! Do you really think this is just a coincidence?! -This yeast strain IS THE DEVIL!

-If you want it to ferment out without stalling raising the temp throughout fermentation won't do it, adding simple sugar won't do it, rousing it won't do it, aerating it won't do it; a young priest and an old priest is the only solution.



Adam

Yeast strain 565

Dupont operates in a building from 1759 and was continuously used as a brewery starting in 1844 (85 years)
In 1997 Dupont was called the best beer in the world (16 years from 1997 until now)

565 + 85 + 16 = 666

This yeast strain is the devil! (Told you!)

The beer has been sitting at 95 deg. F until now. I took a gravity reading, and it was at 1.005. That's 90% apparent attenuation, not too bad.

The yeast seemed to slow way, way down for about a week, and then it picked up again after that. It didn't ever move quickly, but it steadily fermented once the yeast kicked back in.

I'll give it another few days. If it hasn't moved, it's time to bottle it up.

This yeast may be the devil, but I'm hoping it still turns out a good beer!