Do I need to condition my yeast to pitch?

Hello all,
I'm in the midst of a big barleywine (OG was 1.146) and have run into an issue. I pitched US-05, and a second pack 4 days into primary. I had a lot of blowoff and everything fermented ok (at 5 weeks now). I knew I would have to pitch champagne yeast to get to my final gravity (aiming for 1.030-1.033). I have taken readings and am currently at 10.7%abv and SG is at 1.066. I tried pitching premiere cuvee, and nothing happened. I'm assuming that this is because the yeast is too stressed. So my question is this: do I need to make a starter and ramp up the starter's sugars and slowly the alcohol too? Start putting the batch that's at 10.7% into the starter slowly? Also yes I used yeast nutrient and no I didn't aerate with O2 because I don't have the equipment.

how many packs did you start with? US-05 is good to 12%, maybe more. dry yeast does not need O2 to get going.

Started with one and a second added at 4 days in (had to wait that long cuz it would've just been blown out with all the krausen). SG has been stable for the last 2 weeks (been in secondary that long).

tacks said:

Started with one and a second added at 4 days in (had to wait that long cuz it would've just been blown out with all the krausen).

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That's a definite underpitch. I'm skeptical that the 2nd pack, added when it was, did much for you. I'm thinking it would have been better to add it from the beginning. But, at this point, that's neither here nor there.

As to what to do from here on out, it might be that 099 is your best bet. Still, I'd like to see a recipe before suggesting you go through all that trouble. You're only at 55%AA or so, but it's possible with a beer like that, that you've more or less reached the maximum level of attenuation you're going to get.

Also, are you taking those gravity measurements with a hydrometer or a refractometer?

I'm betting on underpitched yeast amount and lack of oxygenation. The yeasts initially undergo a rapid growth phase that requires oxygen in your wort solution. If you didn't pitch enough yeast in a low oxygen wort, the yeast will spend it's energy on reproduction to the point of stress to take advantage of the food source and stop it's reproductive phase once the oxygen runs out. This can leave you with an inadequate amount of stressed out yeast and a stuck fermentation. If you pitched a proper amount of yeast, say a 2L starter, you might still get a stuck fermentation if there isn't adequate oxygen and nutrients in the wort. Since you did add yeast nutrients, we'll just assume it was the oxygen level that got used up by the yeast.

With high gravity beers:

• Pitch the proper amount of yeast.
• Add yeast nutrients.
• Highly oxygenate the wort.

Now, you don't need a fancy airstone, air pumps and/or a O2 tank to properly oxygenate your wort. You can do it easily enough just by rocking your primary fermenter back and forth with the lid on it for about five minutes. Here's what you do:

Once the wort has cooled down to pitching temperature and it's in the primary (bucket or carboy), pitch the yeast and put your lid on it. Don't worry about the airlock yet. Sit on the ground or in a low chair. Place your thumb over the airlock hole (in the bung or lid) and with both hands, tip your primary backwards at a 45 degree angle until it's balancing on the bottom edge. It's kinda like when you were in grade school and used to lean back in you chair until it almost tipped over on it's back legs. Gently rock your primary forwards and backwards, creating a churning and splashing motion in your wort. Keep up the splashing being careful not to tip over the primary or spill wort out of the airlock hole. Rock your wort like this for a full five minutes.

That's it. Five minutes of splashing your wort like this will saturate approximately as much oxygen into the wort as a one minute injection of pure oxygen from an airstone. This saturates more than enough oxygen into your wort and will help ensure you won't have a stuck fermentation. After that, slap your blowoff tube on your primary and ferment normally.

aiptasia, he used dry yeast which does not need O2 to get going.

eastoak said:

aiptasia, he used dry yeast which does not need O2 to get going.

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HORRIBLE information^^

All yeast needs aeration for the lag (growth) phase or you risk stressing the yeast resulting in off flavors or even worse a stuck ferment...like in OP situation.

I agree with Johnny. Yeast needs O2. Anaerobic metabolism ( fermentation) can not take place until the yeast go through the lag and growth phase. O2 is needed for both of those phases. Dry does not skip those phases.

Johnnyhitch1 said:

HORRIBLE information^^

All yeast needs aeration for the lag (growth) phase or you risk stressing the yeast resulting in off flavors or even worse a stuck ferment...like in OP situation.

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do a little research on how dry yeast is made then you'll see that it's not so horrible after all. 90% of my beer has been fermented with US 05 and i never aerate the wort. an un-aerated APA i brewed won 2nd place in the world beer cup last yr. i have an O2 cylinder and a stainless aeration wand for liquid yeast, i know yeast need O2, dry yeast get plenty in the lab before it's dried. in any event you can find this out for yourself easily enough.

http://www.danstaryeast.com/topics/oxygen

http://www.danstaryeast.com/articles/aeration-and-starter-versus-wort

eastoak said:

do a little research on how dry yeast is made then you'll see that it's not so horrible after all. 90% of my beer has been fermented with US 05 and i never aerate the wort. an un-aerated APA i brewed won 2nd place in the world beer cup last yr. i have an O2 cylinder and a stainless aeration wand for liquid yeast, i know yeast need O2, dry yeast get plenty in the lab before it's dried. in any event you can find this out for yourself easily enough.

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Good for you. That beer wasn't a 1.17 Barleywine was it?? Try for yourself, brew a big Barleywine and skip aerating with your US 05. You'll be on here asking about a stuck fermentation too. I guarantee it...

Demus said:

Good for you. That beer wasn't a 1.17 Barleywine was it?? Try for yourself, brew a big Barleywine and skip aerating with your US 05. You'll be on here asking about a stuck fermentation too. I guarantee it...

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i don't think so but you sound like you're kind of cranky so i'll move on.

Danstar says you have to activate the yeast (stir or shake with warm water). That would be providing much need O2. Now if your sprinkling it on the top and it worked than I'm happy you got a great beer, but sprinkling it on the top of the beer negates everything the factory says about their product.

This would be my attempt at restarting a stuck fermentation when already in secondary (i.e. off the yeast cake):

1. Bring the heat up to mid 70s (75-77 would be great); wrap in a blanket to help moderate temperature swings.
2. Once temperature of fermenter is up, prepare a yeast slurry of US05 or S33 using rehydration techniques [see PDF]
   • Boil and cool 1 cup of water to 85F in small sauce pan (covered)
   • Sprinkle yeast evenly over entire surface of water (large surface area is good), recover and let sit for 20-30 minutes at 85F
   • Crack the lid and using a sanitized spoon, stir the mixture for 30+ minutes (stir a couple minutes, cover a couple minutes; repeat until you've hit 30 minutes)
   • At the end of the hour (30 min + 30 min) I would want my yeast slurry to be ~75F to match the fermenter.
3. Crack the lid on the fermenter, drizzle in the yeast, and give a good stir using a sanitized long spoon to distribute well (but no aeration)
4. Close lid, keep wrapped in blanket and in mid-70s, and let this sit a week before checking gravity again
5. In a week, check gravity, and re-stir the beer using sanitized spoon, recover and wait another week.

Wine yeast (premier cuvee) supposedly does not consume maltose, or not efficiently, so adding that was non-beneficial as you observed. It IS sometimes used at bottling time for big beers because the priming sugar that's used is dextrose, not maltose, so it WILL eat the sugar and carbonate the beer. The reason it's sometimes used is because it has a high alcohol tolerance and because the beer yeast is usually dead or stressed to exhaustion. You may actually need to do this yourself when it comes time to bottle your barleywine; just make sure you use dextrose (corn sugar) when you do.

eastoak said:

i don't think so but you sound like you're kind of cranky so i'll move on.

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It's not about being cranky. It's about someone citing unrelated "proof" that something will work because they brewed something that tasted good that way. Read any credible information on barley wines and it will stress the importance of oxygen in the process. Why you think a process that made a good APA would work for an 11%+ bomber is beyond me...

That's correct! When I oxygenate my wort I know exactly how many liters per/min I'm getting. If you don't oxygenate, do you know how much o2 is not in your wort. If you don't, consistency will be a problem.

Exactly, which has an exponentially detrimental effect as gravity goes up...

Proper oxygenation will not have detrimental effects. Over oxygenation my cause problems, but that would depend on yeast viability, cell count, temp ect.

barmyarmy said:

Proper oxygenation will not have detrimental effects. Over oxygenation my cause problems, but that would depend on yeast viability, cell count, temp ect.

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It isn't proper oxygen levels I'm talking about. The reference in this thread is the OP didn't aerate a 1.146 barley wine at all. By anyone with any credibilities standards that's waaaay under oxygenating. A Barleywine that big needs a big dose of pure O2, and probably one more 6-10 hours after pitching...

Yes. 10-12 ppm of o2 and 1 and 1/2 times yeast with a viable pitch. We have never had to re-oxygenate.

When I said I didn't aerate, I should have said I didn't bubble O2. I never put wort into fermentation without pouring it through a sanitized strainer and then performing the good old bucket sloshing before pitching. Especially with something this big. As for the recipe, I was just getting rid of all my LME since I now brew AG. 8 lbs light LME, 6 lbs Munich LME, and 1 lb of honey for a 4 gallon batch. Yeast nutrient added during boil (1tsp DAP per gal wort) and added a small amount of yeast energizer (1 tsp for the whole batch) when I pitched my first package of US-05. Even if US-05 will get me to 12%abv like one poster mentioned, I need to make up that remaining 3-4%abv after the US-05 has reached its limit. Thanks for all the good advice! Especially about using the wine yeast during bottling.

tacks said:

When I said I didn't aerate, I should have said I didn't bubble O2. I never put wort into fermentation without pouring it through a sanitized strainer and then performing the good old bucket sloshing before pitching.

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As is evidenced by your trouble getting proper attenuation, this is inadequate for a Barleywine as big as you brewed. Just about every author I've read as well as brew pub brewmasters I've talked to use pure O2. My brews improved quite a bit since I took up the practice and I really don't miss trying to slosh around 5+ gallons of fresh wort. Why fight it? Spend $50 to give your yeast what they need to ferment your beer to the proper attenuation. Leave the wine yeast to ferment grapes...

eastoak said:

do a little research on how dry yeast is made then you'll see that it's not so horrible after all. 90% of my beer has been fermented with US 05 and i never aerate the wort. an un-aerated APA i brewed won 2nd place in the world beer cup last yr. i have an O2 cylinder and a stainless aeration wand for liquid yeast, i know yeast need O2, dry yeast get plenty in the lab before it's dried. in any event you can find this out for yourself easily enough.

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I wonder what you could of done for first

Cheers buddy!

When I said I didn't aerate, I should have said I didn't bubble O2. I never put wort into fermentation without pouring it through a sanitized strainer

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What happened to that ss wand for this 1.146 BW??