What about an E-STOP button?

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Homercidal

Homercidal

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Just thinking out loud. How important would it be to have an E-STOP button on the control panel? I planned my layout with a standard ON/OFF switch and a main power light. Almost all equipment I've ever operated in a factory has an E-STOP that must be pulled out in order to restart the equipment.

Would this be a useful thing in a Homebrew Electrical Control Panel? Most of the machines I've run in a factory had moving parts that could crush/burn/stab/cut/mangle you. You know, mechanical dangers!

I'm just wondering if this is something I should plan to install in my control panel, or is the main power selector switch safe enough?
 
I've seen a number of builds that use one posted here. Even though you would / should be plugging into a GFCI plug or circuit, I wouldn't solely rely on that.
 
you will be fine without one. i work in the mining industry and we have e-stops on everything. they are made so it's a quick hit of the button to kill the power source. every second counts if your the guy that may lose their body parts or life. a main on/off switch will be fine since you are not likely in any real danger of being crushed, run over, etc. i'm not 100% firmiliar with what you are making, so if you feel there is a danger present and shutting power off quick may save your life, then stick one in.
 
I have a main on and off switch on my panel, it connects to a relay which disconnects the power at the inlet which is good enough for me.
 
I don't know if you remember my panel, but it's got a couple of things that I like. First, Leon made it so there are two switches for the BK element- the PWM and the off/on switch on that. It has helped me from frying the element, and I'm glad he did that!

The other thing is the whole master off/on switch is just below that.

I really like it that way.

I know it's not the same, but I think it's important to have a couple of quick ways to cut power if you need to.
 
GFI is already in place and a test run sans control panel was performed.

I really like the IDEA of being able to smack a large red button in case of emergency, but since I'm not all that familiar with building control panels, and having only worked with mechanical equipment, I'm just trying to decide if there is any good reason to have one.

I just can't seem to think up how it would serve a great purpose since there is zero mechanical danger, and it would only disconnect the element circuits. The control panel itself would still have juice running to it from the breaker panel.

Oh, I just remembered another question:

Would it be smart to install 30A fuses inside the control panel to protect the wiring going to the elements?
 
Yooper said:
I don't know if you remember my panel, but it's got a couple of things that I like. First, Leon made it so there are two switches for the BK element- the PWM and the off/on switch on that. It has helped me from frying the element, and I'm glad he did that!

The other thing is the whole master off/on switch is just below that.

I really like it that way.

I know it's not the same, but I think it's important to have a couple of quick ways to cut power if you need to.
Click to expand...

I have designed a master ON/OFF switch, and the Boil Kettle and the HLT will each have their own switch as well.

And I planned on wiring a float switch into both kettles to prevent burn outs. Cause I KNOW I would totally forget to check the level and fry an element!
 
Homercidal said:
I have designed a master ON/OFF switch, and the Boil Kettle and the HLT will each have their own switch as well.

And I planned on wiring a float switch into both kettles to prevent burn outs. Cause I KNOW I would totally forget to check the level and fry an element!
Click to expand...

Yeah, I have a float switch in the HLT, but not the BK but having both the switch and the PWM for it has worked out very well for me!

Don't tell Leon I said it, but he was a genius with that set up.
 
Actually, I am not sure I would need a float switch in the BK since I plan on recirculating my chiller, I would always have wort above the element until I turn off the heat. I'd only have to remember to not turn it on until the mash tun was drained the first time. I can always add one later if need be. They are not expensive and I would not have to modify the panel to install it (much)
 
Thank you for bringing this up. I have sourced most of the parts for my build, but wasn't totally convinced of the need for e-stop.

Will probably forgo one - unless widowed SWMBOs start posting estate sale electric rigs that didn't use one.

Homercidal said:
Oh, I just remembered another question:

Would it be smart to install 30A fuses inside the control panel to protect the wiring going to the elements?
Click to expand...
I went with these to protect elements:
http://www.ebrewsupply.com/internal-hardware/din-rail/25adinbreak.html
 
H, not sure exactly what your set up is but I will attempt an answer.

Is it a good idea to have 30A fuses protecting the wiring to your elements? Yes, if there is a chance that there might otherwise be more than 30A through those wires -- if the stuff upstream is rated for more than 30A and won't blow first. Breakers are another option.

I quite like the idea of an E-stop on my control panel just as an extra safety feature. But actually the smart thing to do would be to flip the breaker on my spa panel.
 
Homercidal said:
Actually, I am not sure I would need a float switch in the BK since I plan on recirculating my chiller, I would always have wort above the element until I turn off the heat. I'd only have to remember to not turn it on until the mash tun was drained the first time. I can always add one later if need be. They are not expensive and I would not have to modify the panel to install it (much)
Click to expand...

That was my thinking, too, and why we didn't bother with a float switch at all.

There were a couple of times that I was really glad to have the off/on and PWM switch though! One time, it must have been Quinn playing with switches, so the PWM was turned on, but not the off/on switch. Otherwise, that would have burned up when I turned the system on for the next brewday. Now, I just remember to turn everything off before plugging it in, and then turning the master power on.

The other time this could come up is when I do "bigger" 10 gallon batches. My MLT is big enough, but my HLT only holds 13.75 gallons. So sometimes I heat up sparge water in the BK, and then pump it over to the HLT when the HLT empties. If I leave the PWM and the on/off switch on the BK, I could burn up my element. That's the only time I think a float switch for the BK could be useful.
 
alien said:
H, not sure exactly what your set up is but I will attempt an answer.

Is it a good idea to have 30A fuses protecting the wiring to your elements? Yes, if there is a chance that there might otherwise be more than 30A through those wires -- if the stuff upstream is rated for more than 30A and won't blow first. Breakers are another option.

I quite like the idea of an E-stop on my control panel just as an extra safety feature. But actually the smart thing to do would be to flip the breaker on my spa panel.
Click to expand...

I honestly don't see anything drawing more than that. I will likely run a 5500W element in my HLT (currently in my BK) and that's it. The BK would have an ULD element, but I haven't decided on what size yet. So I think I that each element could potentially draw no more than 25A.

Yooper said:
That was my thinking, too, and why we didn't bother with a float switch at all.

There were a couple of times that I was really glad to have the off/on and PWM switch though! One time, it must have been Quinn playing with switches, so the PWM was turned on, but not the off/on switch. Otherwise, that would have burned up when I turned the system on for the next brewday. Now, I just remember to turn everything off before plugging it in, and then turning the master power on.

The other time this could come up is when I do "bigger" 10 gallon batches. My MLT is big enough, but my HLT only holds 13.75 gallons. So sometimes I heat up sparge water in the BK, and then pump it over to the HLT when the HLT empties. If I leave the PWM and the on/off switch on the BK, I could burn up my element. That's the only time I think a float switch for the BK could be useful.
Click to expand...

I will have that problem if/when I decide to do 10 gallon batches. I think it will be rare event. I am actually planning on a 10G batch this weekend, but only just because I want to try it and I wanted to give a batch of IPA to a friend. But he may be coming over to brew with me, and if he brews he can make his own dam beer!
 
Homercidal said:
I honestly don't see anything drawing more than that. I will likely run a 5500W element in my HLT (currently in my BK) and that's it. The BK would have an ULD element, but I haven't decided on what size yet. So I think I that each element could potentially draw no more than 25A.



I will have that problem if/when I decide to do 10 gallon batches. I think it will be rare event. I am actually planning on a 10G batch this weekend, but only just because I want to try it and I wanted to give a batch of IPA to a friend. But he may be coming over to brew with me, and if he brews he can make his own dam beer!
Click to expand...

Yeah, I thought I would never do 10 gallon batches- but now that's routine for me. Occasionally I do a 5 or 6 gallon batch, but that's rare. Of course, that's because we drink more than twice as much beer in our house vs. yours!

I have a 5500 w in the HLT and a 4500 w in the BK.
 
Homercidal said:
I honestly don't see anything drawing more than that. I will likely run a 5500W element in my HLT (currently in my BK) and that's it. The BK would have an ULD element, but I haven't decided on what size yet. So I think I that each element could potentially draw no more than 25A.
Click to expand...

So let's imagine you accidentally run your element dry and it shorts, will anything else blow? Usually the element would short to ground and the GFCI breaker in your spa panel would trip. But if it shorted the 2 hot wires together, the next line of protection is the 50A thermal breaker which would not protect the 30A wiring in the control panel.

Perhaps this example is a bit contrived. But if you can imagine the hot wires shorting anywhere, like a bad connection in a plug or socket, that's what you need the thermal protection for.

Having said all that usually wires within the control panel are short so don't dissipate much heat. But thermal protection is particularly important for the connections to the elements because the ambient temperature is high i.e. they attach to a boiler full of hot water. Fuses/breakers are not the only factor, also thickness of the wires and the temperature rating of the insulation are important to get it "safe enough".
 
alien said:
So let's imagine you accidentally run your element dry and it shorts, will anything else blow? Usually the element would short to ground and the GFCI breaker in your spa panel would trip. But if it shorted the 2 hot wires together, the next line of protection is the 50A thermal breaker which would not protect the 30A wiring in the control panel.

Perhaps this example is a bit contrived. But if you can imagine the hot wires shorting anywhere, like a bad connection in a plug or socket, that's what you need the thermal protection for.

Having said all that usually wires within the control panel are short so don't dissipate much heat. But thermal protection is particularly important for the connections to the elements because the ambient temperature is high i.e. they attach to a boiler full of hot water. Fuses/breakers are not the only factor, also thickness of the wires and the temperature rating of the insulation are important to get it "safe enough".
Click to expand...

If the breaker in the main panel is 30a, then it should protect 10awg wire, whether or not there is a 50a GFCI spa panel in between, right? So it would follow that additional breakers or fuses would only be necessary if neither the main breaker nor the spa panel were appropriate (30a) for 10awg wire. I'm still not an electrician. :)
 
And regarding the e-stop, I think the most critical feature is that you have an easy way to de-energize the panel, without having to resort to literally pulling the plug. Then two questions follow: where in the circuit do you want to cut power, and what physical control do you want to use to do it?

You can rig it to get your GFCI to trip. Or you can use a normally open contactor in the panel, activated by a 120v switch, so that when "off" only the 120v switch is enegized. I will not repeat the "religious" arguments here. :)

For a physical control you can use a push-button switch, a rotary switch, a mushroom e-stop switch, etc. Any of these should allow you to cut power quickly. If you are worried about inadvertently turning the power on, you can use as your main power switch either an e-stop that requires you to manually (screw out) close the circuit, or a keyed switch. Many ways to do it....
 
alien said:
So let's imagine you accidentally run your element dry and it shorts, will anything else blow? Usually the element would short to ground and the GFCI breaker in your spa panel would trip. But if it shorted the 2 hot wires together, the next line of protection is the 50A thermal breaker which would not protect the 30A wiring in the control panel.

Perhaps this example is a bit contrived. But if you can imagine the hot wires shorting anywhere, like a bad connection in a plug or socket, that's what you need the thermal protection for.

Having said all that usually wires within the control panel are short so don't dissipate much heat. But thermal protection is particularly important for the connections to the elements because the ambient temperature is high i.e. they attach to a boiler full of hot water. Fuses/breakers are not the only factor, also thickness of the wires and the temperature rating of the insulation are important to get it "safe enough".
Click to expand...

I've been pretty fastidious about using the correct size wires and breakers. And Fuse holders a probably pretty cheap, so I may as well do it. There is plenty of room in the panel.

jeffmeh said:
If the breaker in the main panel is 30a, then it should protect 10awg wire, whether or not there is a 50a GFCI spa panel in between, right? So it would follow that additional breakers or fuses would only be necessary if neither the main breaker nor the spa panel were appropriate (30a) for 10awg wire. I'm still not an electrician. :)
Click to expand...

I can't recall off the top of my head, but I want to believe I used a 50A breaker in the main panel to match the 50A span panel, because I planned to use both elements simultaneously (or at least am open to the possibility of doing a double batch where I might want to run the HLT while boiling the previous batch.)

jeffmeh said:
And regarding the e-stop, I think the most critical feature is that you have an easy way to de-energize the panel, without having to resort to literally pulling the plug. Then two questions follow: where in the circuit do you want to cut power, and what physical control do you want to use to do it?

You can rig it to get your GFCI to trip. Or you can use a normally open contactor in the panel, activated by a 120v switch, so that when "off" only the 120v switch is enegized. I will not repeat the "religious" arguments here. :)

For a physical control you can use a push-button switch, a rotary switch, a mushroom e-stop switch, etc. Any of these should allow you to cut power quickly. If you are worried about inadvertently turning the power on, you can use as your main power switch either an e-stop that requires you to manually (screw out) close the circuit, or a keyed switch. Many ways to do it....
Click to expand...

What is the downside to tripping the GFI circuit? I had wanted to cut the juice to the whole panel, and had envisioned a mechanical switch that when activated, everything in the panel would be disconnected. But of course in that instance, the wires coming in would still be hot.
 
In industry, an E-Stop functions to immediately shut down any process that that could endanger health, life or property.

In a brewing setting, burns and electrical shock are probably the two biggest hazards. As mentioned, an E-Stop does nothing about the electrical shock hazard.

No real way to put an E-Stop on that 5-10 gallons of scalding-hot liquid in those kettles either.

Most brewers are probably better served with a well designed panel including a master on/off switch for routine shut-down, servicing, or the occasional need to kill a pump with a broken line just to minimize the mop-up mess.
 
jeffmeh said:
You can rig it to get your GFCI to trip. Or you can use a normally open contactor in the panel, activated by a 120v switch, so that when "off" only the 120v switch is enegized. I will not repeat the "religious" arguments here. :)
Click to expand...

I went with this arrangement, and used a big red mushroom button that you have to twist and pull to energize the system. My thought was that if the GFCI is working good enough to detect the small intentional ground you see wired into some panel designs here, well, it should be working good enough to trip on a major fault. Either way, if you're getting the bejeezus zapped out of you, the GFCI will hopefully do its job and open the circuit at the spa panel or main panel.

For routine ops, I prefer a switch that disconnects power via a contactor over tripping the breaker. Opinions (and emotions) on the topic vary widely around here. I will be testing my rig this weekend... so watch the DC obits for evidence that I'm mistaken!
 
Homercidal said:
I've been pretty fastidious about using the correct size wires and breakers. And Fuse holders a probably pretty cheap, so I may as well do it. There is plenty of room in the panel.



I can't recall off the top of my head, but I want to believe I used a 50A breaker in the main panel to match the 50A span panel, because I planned to use both elements simultaneously (or at least am open to the possibility of doing a double batch where I might want to run the HLT while boiling the previous batch.)



What is the downside to tripping the GFI circuit? I had wanted to cut the juice to the whole panel, and had envisioned a mechanical switch that when activated, everything in the panel would be disconnected. But of course in that instance, the wires coming in would still be hot.
Click to expand...

As I implied, there is a heated debate as to whether it is "proper" to design an emergency shutdown by shunting current to ground to trip a GFCI. I don't want to get into that.

From a practical perspective, GFCIs fail, and when they do they fail to interrupt the circuit, so the circuit is closed. If a normally open mechanical contactor fails, the circuit is open.

I suppose you could get the best of both worlds by wiring an e-stop to both trip the GFCI and cut power to a mechanical contactor. Assuming the GFCI is working, power is cut there. If the GFCI fails you at least get power cut after the main power switch in the panel. Personally, I think it's overkill, because I think a main power contactor in the panel is sufficient.
 
I initially planned a e-stop, but then determined that my control panel is not going to be within reach when working at my boil kettle so I eliminated it. To make it useable.
 
jeffmeh said:
As I implied, there is a heated debate as to whether it is "proper" to design an emergency shutdown by shunting current to ground to trip a GFCI. I don't want to get into that.

From a practical perspective, GFCIs fail, and when they do they fail to interrupt the circuit, so the circuit is closed. If a normally open mechanical contactor fails, the circuit is open.

I suppose you could get the best of both worlds by wiring an e-stop to both trip the GFCI and cut power to a mechanical contactor. Assuming the GFCI is working, power is cut there. If the GFCI fails you at least get power cut after the main power switch in the panel. Personally, I think it's overkill, because I think a main power contactor in the panel is sufficient.
Click to expand...

I kind of agree with that. I think a main contactor disconnect should be sufficient. I supposed if I need to work in the panel I ought to remember to disconnect the power (and knowing me I'd try and hunt down a padlock to lock it out too!)

I haven't gotten to the point where I've wired a contactor in yet, so I guess that's the next step.
 
Airplanedoc said:
I initially planned a e-stop, but then determined that my control panel is not going to be within reach when working at my boil kettle so I eliminated it. To make it useable.
Click to expand...

I plan to have my control panel as part of the stand. Either on a steel pedestal, or on a swing arm, I'm undecided.

The stand should have room inside it for a small computer and a set of computer speakers for tunes. I am hoping to figure out how to build a swing out, or fold out, table for working with small things like water additions, testing equipment, KB/Mouse for computer, etc. This may change my mind about where the control panel ends up, but in any case it will become part of the stand.
 
Good information in this thread, my plan had been to have an estop, but it depends on my panel size. There are other switches I wanted first. But a properly designed switch that cuts power to the panel would be the first step.

But good points about how would you plan on using it during an emergency. I can see having it or excluding it. As for implementing it, tripping GFCI or contactor on the power in, there are multiple ways to do things.

-Josh
 
I just finished a 120V build using the Auber box. I did not incorporate an E-stop button as the box is small and the power buttons are easily accessible.

Most electrical problems will occur too fast to react to. That is why we use circuit breakers and GFCI.

If the element or pump smokes/sparks, I will just turn off the power. If the control box is smoking/sparking you can bet I am not getting near it.
 

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