how does a carboy do what it does?

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amerikanbeat

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I understand the point of using a carboy, the effect it has on a batch. But I am unclear on the mechanism. Why does two weeks in the carboy produce an effect on the batch that two weeks longer in the primary fermenter doesn't? Is it about leaving the sediment behind? My understanding is that secondary fermentation isn't really fermentation anyhow, which compounds my confusion.
 
I am under the impression it help to clear up the beer and leave sediment behind. I am still very new and don't know half as much about brewing as many people here. There is a lot of very helpful information here.
 
Either is fine. I personally dont use a secondary unless the beer needs extended ageing
It will also benifit the beer to stay on the yeast because the yeast will clean up after themselves.:mug:
 
It doesn't, there's been a shift in belief over the past few years, now most of us leave our beers in primary for a month rather than rack to a secondary, and find our beers are better for being on the yeast that time. And clearer.

Fermenting the beer is just a part of what the yeast do. If you leave the beer alone, they will go back and clean up the byproducts of fermentation that often lead to off flavors. That's why many brewers skip secondary and leave our beers alone in primary for a month. It leaves plenty of time for the yeast to ferment, clean up after themselves and then fall out, leveing our beers crystal clear, with a tight yeast cake.

We have multiple threads about this all over the place, like this one https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ignore-instructions-do-not-bottle-after-5-10-days-78298/

If you leave the beer alone, they will go back and clean up the byproducts of fermentation that often lead to off flavors. That's why many brewers skip secondary and leave our beers alone in primary for a month. It leaves plenty of time for the yeast to ferment, clean up after themselves and then fall out, leveing our beers crystal clear, with a tight yeast cake.

This is the latest recommendation, it is the same one many of us have been giving for several years on here.

John Palmer said:
Tom from Michigan asks:
I have a few questions about secondary fermentations. I've read both pros and cons for 2nd fermentations and it is driving me crazy what to do. One, are they necessary for lower Gravity beers?
Two, what is the dividing line between low gravity and high gravity beers? Is it 1.060 and higher?
Three, I have an American Brown Ale in the primary right now, a SG of 1.058, Should I secondary ferment this or not?
Your advice is appreciated, thanks for all you do!

Allen from New York asks:

John, please talk about why or why not you would NOT use a secondary fermenter (bright tank?) and why or why not a primary only fermentation is a good idea. In other words, give some clarification or reason why primary only is fine, versus the old theory of primary then secondary normal gravity ale fermentations.

Palmer answers:

These are good questions – When and why would you need to use a secondary fermenter? First some background – I used to recommend racking a beer to a secondary fermenter. My recommendation was based on the premise that (20 years ago) larger (higher gravity) beers took longer to ferment completely, and that getting the beer off the yeast reduced the risk of yeast autolysis (ie., meaty or rubbery off-flavors) and it allowed more time for flocculation and clarification, reducing the amount of yeast and trub carryover to the bottle. Twenty years ago, a homebrewed beer typically had better flavor, or perhaps less risk of off-flavors, if it was racked off the trub and clarified before bottling. Today that is not the case.

The risk inherent to any beer transfer, whether it is fermenter-to-fermenter or fermenter-to-bottles, is oxidation and staling. Any oxygen exposure after fermentation will lead to staling, and the more exposure, and the warmer the storage temperature, the faster the beer will go stale.

Racking to a secondary fermenter used to be recommended because staling was simply a fact of life – like death and taxes. But the risk of autolysis was real and worth avoiding – like cholera. In other words, you know you are going to die eventually, but death by cholera is worth avoiding.

But then modern medicine appeared, or in our case, better yeast and better yeast-handling information. Suddenly, death by autolysis is rare for a beer because of two factors: the freshness and health of the yeast being pitched has drastically improved, and proper pitching rates are better understood. The yeast no longer drop dead and burst like Mr. Creosote from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life when fermentation is complete – they are able to hibernate and wait for the next fermentation to come around. The beer has time to clarify in the primary fermenter without generating off-flavors. With autolysis no longer a concern, staling becomes the main problem. The shelf life of a beer can be greatly enhanced by avoiding oxygen exposure and storing the beer cold (after it has had time to carbonate).

Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering. With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl. The real purpose of lagering a beer is to use the colder temperatures to encourage the yeast to flocculate and promote the precipitation and sedimentation of microparticles and haze.

So, the new rule of thumb: don’t rack a beer to a secondary, ever, unless you are going to conduct a secondary fermentation.

THIS is where the latest discussion and all your questions answered.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

We basically proved that old theory wrong on here 5 years ago, and now the rest fo the brewing community is catching up. Though a lot of old dogs don't tend to follow the latest news, and perpetuate the old stuff.

The autolysis from prolong yeast contact has fallen by the wayside, in fact yeast contact is now seen as a good thing.

All my beers sit a minimum of 1 month in the primary. And I recently bottled a beer that sat in primary for 5.5 months with no ill effects.....

You'll find that more and more recipes these days do not advocate moving to a secondary at all, but mention primary for a month, which is starting to reflect the shift in brewing culture that has occurred in the last 4 years, MOSTLY because of many of us on here, skipping secondary, opting for longer primaries, and writing about it. Recipes in BYO have begun stating that in their magazine. I remember the "scandal" it caused i the letters to the editor's section a month later, it was just like how it was here when we began discussing it, except a lot more civil than it was here. But after the Byo/Basic brewing experiment, they started reflecting it in their recipes.
 
You can use a carboy as a primary or secondary fermenter, or both. The benefit to moving your beer from one vessel to another for secondary fermentation is that sediment can have a negative effect on the flavor of the beer. Some people don't bother racking to a secondary, preferring instead to leave it in the primary for the entire time. Whenever you move beer from one container to another it comes into contact with oxygen and there is a danger of oxidization, this also has a negative impact on flavor. Either option has benefits, and there are plenty of opinions on which is better.
 
You can use a carboy as a primary or secondary fermenter, or both. The benefit to moving your beer from one vessel to another for secondary fermentation is that sediment can have a negative effect on the flavor of the beer.

See above, that's been proven to be an outdated opinion that had vary little validity and as posted above and all over the place including BYO magazine, has fallen by the wayside. Even the folks who, from your reading, you probably drew that opinion from (John Palmer) has said he was wrong about that.
 
Jamil addressed this briefly on a recent Brew Strong podcast. He said that the "tradition" of moving to secondary came from two main sources: partly from the unavailability, until recently of healthy, strong yeast to homebrewers and partly from the practice of commercial brewers who drop their yeast after just a few days. Commercial brewers are dealing with high pressure and heat management problems associated with brewing tens-to-hundreds of barrels in a single vessel which affect the yeast differently from our smaller homebrew setups.
 
I think the OP was confusing primary v. secondary fermentation with carboy v. bucket/pail. It was kind of answered but figured I'd add this to help clear it up just in case.

Reevy clearly explained above that the old theory was start fermenting in your primary and then rack to a secondary fermenter after a few weeks, the new age theory most now use is that you're better off with a long primary.

As far as carboy v. bucket either vessel can be used for a primary or secondary stage, both have pros and cons (check the this v. that thread to see them) and the vessel itself will minimally effect the fermentation.

Long story short whether you use a carboy or bucket, pour your wort in, pitch your yeast, leave for a month and then keg or bottle.
 
Well. Now I have a five gallon Better Bottle with no purpose...:(;)

Maybe I'll call it a "bright tank".
 
I have to admit I just moved my last batch into a secondary a couple of days ago. Reading this has been very interesting and hopefully will save me some effort and some beer, but brings me to one question:

If I have a very large carboy (on the order of 12 gallons) and I only use a primary, how many gallons of beer do I need to make to prevent there from being too much oxygen? If I'm using it as a primary, would the initial oxygen not simply be pushed out very quickly and I wouldn't need to worry about the excess space in the carboy?
 

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