Paulaner Oktoberfest...help me figure it out.

In using Beersmith I see that the SRM for the style is 7.0-14.0. The Paulaner that I just drank is MAYBE a 4.0...if not 3.0. Either way, I thoroughly enjoyed it and want to brew a Marzen that is similar and true to the origins of the style. Therefore, no Crystal malts.

BYO's suggested recipe is ridiculously strong in the ABV department...and also too dark for what I want to accomplish.

http://byo.com/component/resource/a...r Styles/1125-marzen-brew-now-for-oktoberfest

So I was hoping that a few of you vets could help me construct a recipe. This is my first time trying to make a recipe from scratch but this is what I've come up with so far:

10 lbs. German pilsner
2 lbs. Vienna
.5 lbs Munich
.25 oz Tettnang 90 min
.5 oz Tettnang 60 min
.75 oz Saaz 30 min
Wyeast 2206

I guess I would follow BYO's interesting little mash schedule that they suggest.

Whatever...like I said I am new to this and thought I would throw something together for you guys to work with. I know the SRM's are still high here for what I want to achieve(5.3 as it is)...but I'm hoping that you guys would have some good suggestions.

Many of the modern German Fest beers seem to more of a big Helles than a traditional Marzen. That is they are mostly pils malt as opposed to Munich. Probably why that Paulaner is lighter in color than some of the style listings. My preference is for a darker beer with large portions of Munich and Vienna. That BYO recipe is from 1997 and is pretty much pils malt colored with caramalt. For something simple that will get you both rich flavor and color try 1/3 each Munich, Vienna and Pilsner malt. About 10-11 lbs total should yield five gallons at approximately OG 1.060. I would go with two hop additions, one for full boil and one at 20/30 minutes with a target IBU of the mid 20s.

First, just to ground the commercial examples, the Paulaner, Spaten, and Hacker-Pschorr imported to the US are more of a Marzen in style - more to the ruby-red in color in the 10 -14 SRM range. The imported Hofbrau Oktoberfest is more typical of what is served at Oktoberfest in Munich. As the above post correctly states, the modern Oktoberfest beer served in Munich is more of a big Helles than a Marzen and in the 5 - 10 SRM range. It's a matter of what you would like to brew.

That said, I wouldn't use the mash schedule from byo. The 130 degree range rest is a protein rest and not needed with modern continenal Pils malt. I would do a 144 rest for 30 mins and a 158 rest for 30 mins. This is a more typical German infusion mash (see braukaiser's website for good info on German mashing techniques).

Also very important to a successful lager is to ferment at 48 - 50 degrees.

Prost !

Brewers Association separates Marzen and Oktoberfest into two different sub-styles. The Marzen is more traditional and the Oktoberfest is more like the fest beer (and also similar to Dortmunder Export).

From the Brewer's Association 2010 Style Guidelines:

German-Style Märzen
Märzens are characterized by a medium body and broad range of color. They can range from golden to reddish orange. Sweet maltiness should dominate slightly over a clean hop bitterness. Malt character should be light-toasted rather than strongly caramel (though a low level of light caramel character is acceptable). Bread or biscuit-like malt character is acceptable in aroma and flavor. Hop aroma and flavor should be low but notable. Ale-like fruity esters should not be perceived. Diacetyl and chill haze should not be perceived.
Original Gravity (ºPlato) 1.050-1.060 (12.5-15 ºPlato) ●Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (ºPlato) 1.012-1.020 (3-5 ºPlato) ● Alcohol by Weight (Volume) 4-4.7% (5.3-5.9%) ●Bitterness (IBU) 18-25 ●Color SRM (EBC) 4-15 (8-30 EBC)

German-Style Oktoberfest/Wiesen (Meadow)
Today’s Oktoberfest beers are characterized by a medium body and light, golden color. Sweet maltiness is mild with an equalizing balance of clean, hop bitterness. Hop aroma and flavor should be low but notable. Ale-like fruity esters should not be perceived. Diacetyl and chill haze should not be perceived. Similar or equal to Dortmunder/European-Style Export.
Original Gravity (ºPlato) 1.048-1.056 (12-14 ºPlato) ●Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (ºPlato) 1.010-1.014 (2.5-3.5 ºPlato) ● Alcohol by Weight (Volume) 4-4.8% (5-6%) ●Bitterness (IBU) 23-29 ● Color SRM (EBC) 3-5 (6-10 EBC)

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I thought I had read that there was also a distinction in Germany where each had different maximum (or minimum) gravities and lagering times but can't find that now.

In any case, I make a true Marzen/Oktoberfest and also make what I call 'Zelten Bier' (Tent Beer) that's between a Helles and a Maibock in strength (yet still different than my Dortmunder Export).

That's some good information. The Paulaner Oktoberfest that I drank would definately fall more under the guidlines for the German Oktoberfest/ Wiesen than it would the Marzen, but it shares a little of both styles.. Except for one thing...it was had a haze. It was very light golden color, the maltiness was the dominant flavor with the hops very subtle in the background. Definately had the bready/ biscuit aroma and flavor as well.

Could it be strictly Pilsner and Vienna malts...no Munich? What might contribute to the weissen like haze? I suppose I could try brewing a batch without the Munich and see...and just lager for a month or so rather than the six months that is suggested...just to see if I'm in the ballpark.

Thanks for the assisstance!

That half pound of Munich won't make much difference, you could leave it or not. I'd prob just use Pils/Vienna (and also Carafoam but that's just me). FWIW, the last Maibock I made (that I've actually drank, I brewed another two days ago) was 5# Pils/5# Vienna/2# Munich Type I/.5# Carafoam and it was only 6-6.5 SRM (still golden).

Also/FWIW, the Weyermann Munich Type I is only 6* L where many other 'light' Munich malts are closer to 9*-10* L. It's kind of a cross between Vienna and most other 'light' Munich malts. Their Type II is @ 9* L.

SpanishCastleAle said:

I thought I had read that there was also a distinction in Germany where each had different maximum (or minimum) gravities and lagering times but can't find that now.

In any case, I make a true Marzen/Oktoberfest and also make what I call 'Zelten Bier' (Tent Beer) that's between a Helles and a Maibock in strength (yet still different than my Dortmunder Export).

Click to expand...

In Bavaria Märzen has to be a minimum of 13.5º Plato and a maximum of 14º Plato. In Baden-Württemberg the minmum gravity is 13º Plato.

The beer served at the Oktoberfest is a Helles Märzen. Märzen comes in any colour from straw yellow to black. It does not have to be amber. The original Märzens were all dark brown in colour.

I made Oktoberfest/marzen style beers for the last few years. I follower Kaisers instructions and mashed them in the German fashion, double decoction. Here's his link
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Decoction_Mashing
This method is time consuming, 6-8 hour brew day but will get you the malt flavor German Oktoberfest are know for. Most of my recipes have lots of Munich in them.

Thanks for the input. I should be able to brew something decent anyway. Do any of you actually lager for the 6-8 months that was suggested? Maybe I'll just do a 10 gallon batch...lager one for a few weeks and the other for 6 or 7 months and get into it in July!

Cheers.

FWIW, I usually lager for 4 - 6 weeks. I've read in a few sources that the benefit is minimal beyond 6 weeks. It's more important to be near freezing (<34) that the extended time - the lower temp. benefits head retention. The bottled Paulaner we get here in Cleveland, OH is definitely a darker Marzen not the light-colored Fest beer I've had at Oktoberfest in Munich (3 trips over - guess I'm lucky). You are right, recipe variations are all over for this seeing that the color can be from a straw-gold (Festbeer) to amber (Marzen).

One suggestion for an 11 SRM version. I like Melanoidin or Aromatic to give it a "decocted" type flavor:
38.4% - Pils
31% - Munich light
23% Vienna
7.6% Aromatic

My Oktoberfest recipe was my attempt at a biertent beer, I have plans to brew two 5 gallon batches soon, one minus the melanoidin malt, mashed a bit higher, the other one I am going to do a proper decoction mash, then see how they taste in 6 months! take a peek and let me know if that is close to what you are looking for.

Hemsworth said:

Thanks for the input. I should be able to brew something decent anyway. Do any of you actually lager for the 6-8 months that was suggested? Maybe I'll just do a 10 gallon batch...lager one for a few weeks and the other for 6 or 7 months and get into it in July!

Cheers.

Click to expand...

I usually ferment (January) for 3-4 weeks @ 45, I transfer off the yeast cake(sometimes reuse) and put the carboys into the cold garage in a styrofoam box until winter is over(average temps in the 30's). After winter I then return to a "chilly" basement room(50F ish) to sit until I can't wait anymore. Usually the bock is consumed in late summer while the Oktoberfest is consumed in Sept to October. They are always clear tasty at this point.

Try to do the double decoction, makes a world of difference.

So...here is the recipe that I've put together. Please feel free to chime in as it is the first time that I have attempted this and I don't really know what I am doing.

I'm going to try the double decoction mash. It will be good experince if nothing else.

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Saflager W-34/70
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.0
Original Gravity: 1.059
Final Gravity: 1.015
IBU: 22.3
Boiling Time (Minutes): 90
Color: 5.0 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 21 days at 50°


7 lbs. German Pilsner
4 lbs. Vienna
0.5 lbs. Carafoam
.25 oz Tettnang @ 90 min.
.50 oz Tettnang @ 60 min.
.75 oz Saaz @ 30 min.

Add 5.75 gallons of water and hold mash at 122 f for 35 min.
Decoct 2.75 gallons and boil
Hold mash at 147 f for 20 min.
Decoct 1.67 gallons and boil
Hold mash at 158 for 20 min.
Heat to 168 and hold for 10 min.
Sparge with 3.68 gallons of water.

Now...when I decoct and boil...I'm sure that this will take at least 30 minutes to complete, the mash will be resting for much longer than the specified times until I can add the decoction to raise the temperatures. I'm guessing that his is unavoidable and perfectly fine. So in effect, the remaining mash would actually be held at the specified temperature for closer to an hour rather than 20 minutes. Not a problem?

I will be leaving this to lager at 34 f for 5-6 months. Just in time for camping season.

Also note...my brew pot is very wide and has an unusually large boil off rate which is why I need such a large volume of wort for the boil.

So...comments and suggestions please.

Couple of comments:
I skip protein rests on my lagers when using continental grains. I've done them before, but most of the literature says to skip it when using well-modified malts - which most modern malts are. The only time the books are really recommending a protein rest is either with Hefeweizens (wheat malt) or Czech under-modified malts.

If you do want to do the protein rest, you should dough-in at the protein rest temp and then either direct heat or add water to get to the next rest - 147. By doing a decoction at this point, as you stated, the main mash will sit at 122 for way too long.
Doughing-in at 122 and direct heat or hot water to the 147 (or skip the 122 rest completely), then decoct to the 158 rest, then decoct to the mash-out of 168.

Check out braukaiser's website. Kai has a ton of info on German brewing and is the source for answers on decoction. Go to the decoction page and scroll down to the Hochkurz Double Decoction mash. This is pretty much what you are doing except for decocting from the 122 rest.
As Kai points out, most German breweries are following this schedule for a double-decoction and also use the 147 - 158 schedule for step mashes.

Prost !

I did read Braukaiser's wiki but I guess I didn't read past the double decoction. This makes more sense, I wouldn't be as worried about a decoction and leaving the grains at 147.

I guess that about completes the recipe. Thanks for your input...it made me feel better about what I'm getting into. Now to order the ingredients!

I'll update in a few months. Stand by.

I think your recipe needs some munich malt, I just did a lager that was 100% weyermann vienna and it looks like a pilsner urquell, BARELY darker than extra pale. I'd also up the carafoam to 10%, but thats just how i like my German beers .

I 2nd skipping the protein rest, when I've done it it left my beer thinner tasting and with a quickly dissipating head when compared to skipping it.

I'm actually shooting for a lighter SRM. The Paulaner Oktoberfest that I am attempting to sorta clone was a light, straw color.

ahh, canada must get different paulaner o-fest, i hope that wasn't blatantly written somewhere that i skimmed past. you should be right on the money then .