Yeast & Fermentation Issues

Hey fellas, I have 6 brews under my belt, 3 extract and 3 AG. Only 1 of the 6 has been bottled and 1 of the 5 in process is in a 2ndary. I had zero issues with the 3 extract brews and have had issues with all 3 AG brews.

My problem: I am having issues with fermentation lag and also stuck fermentation.

I guess my question is two pronged: how can I fix my current issue and how can I prevent this and get on the right track with future brews?

My AG's:
AHS Belgian White - brewed 8/27
AHS Pumpkin Ale - brewed 8/29
KingBrian's Caramel Amber Ale - brewed 9/6

First off, I suspect my problem is with my starter. All 3 had huge fermentation lag. I used John Palmer's method of preparing a starter in a cup of warm water I think it's between 95 and 105. I did not prepare the starter days in advance but during the boil. I'd pitch the yeast per instructions at a wort temp of 80. I didn't add DME or prepare a big starter per the Mr. Malty site I've read about.

I waited 4-5 days on all 3 and had zero fermentation....I checked with the hydrometer (and no bubbler activity but I know this isn't a sign of fermentation). So, I opened the AHS's up and restirred the wort really good. The fermentation kicked up on both for maybe 24-48 hours. I took a hydrometer reading on both and the Belgian came down from 1.040 to 1.028 but has been stuck at 1.029 for 10 days now. The pumpkin was at at OG of 1.048, came down to 1.027 after a good stirring on day 4-5 and has been stuck for 10 days at 1.027.

On the Caramel, the fermentation lagged for 3 days then looked like it bubbled for maybe 24 hours after I opened it up and stirred the heck out of it. I just took the first hydro reading this weekend and will again in 2-3 days to see if that has stalled too.

I obviously need to study up and research yeast starters. I think that's my first problem. I have read a bit and have many questions but need to read more before I start asking questions.

My first question is what would you guys recommend I do to get these kicking again? They are both supposed to finish around 1.010.

I swirled the two AHS brews last night with the lid on the fermenter and as of noon today there's no bubbler action (but I'll take a hydro reading in a day or two).

(I know my OG's were low for the Belgian and a tad low for the Pumpkin but those were my first two AG efforts and have had gradual improvement in efficiency every attempt. Belgian was 10 points of target OG, Pumpkin was 4 pts off and I nailed the Caramel on the money).

Any advice? Sorry for long post.

assuming you are using liquid yeast:

It sounds as if you are pitching your starter into the wort the same day you make it. As far as the yeast is concerned, you may as well pitch the pack/vial directly into the wort as you aren't getting the increased yeast numbers that you would using a properly prepared starter. Starters need 2-3 days at least to ferment before they are ready for pitching.

That being said, I think underpitching is your main issue here, along with some stress you are putting on the yeast by trying to make a starter but not letting it ferment out. Yes, I recommend reading up on starters.

As for saving your currrent brews...try pitching some dry yeast.

+1, those starters you were making were no different then pitching the vials directly in.

Are you aerating your wort before pitching the yeast? It sounds like you weren't since it took some agitation to get them going, which could point to a lack of oxygen and thus inability to reproduce. Be careful when you've been stirring though, adding oxygen after fermentation has begun can ruin your brew.

I'd grab a pack of notty or S-05 and split it amongst the batches, that should finish them up.

Need a bit more info...

What was your mash temp and time for the AG brews? If you mashed too high or not long enough to get complete conversion you may not have enough fermentable sugar in your brew for the yeast to munch on.

What were your fermentation temps at? Did the temps drop 7-8* at any point? This can cause yeast to "stall" and go dormant.

Great suggestions, thanks a ton guys this helps a lot.

@broadbill: Yeast used:
AHS Belgian- White Labs Belgian Wit Ale 400 (liquid)
AHS Pumpkin - White Labs British Ale 005 (liquid)
Caramel Amber (Safale #S-05 American Ale) Dry in a packet
Yes, I was definitely making the yeast starters the same day as brew day. In fact I'd make them no more than an hour before pitching (I'd make during the boil). I think underpitching is my prob too and I suspected as much. The problem of ferm lag and stuck ferm all seemed related. When you say to fix it by pitching dry yeast do you mean just pour the dry yeast directly into the fermenter or do I make a starter. When I pour it in do I stir real good or just sprinkle/pour on top?



@dcp27: Aeration: well, i don't have any type of aeration device or stone I've seen but I have stirred the hell outta it and got it almost frothed up into bubbles. I then pitched. When I restirred it 4-5 days later, I pretty much did the same thing and just went to town stirring the hell outta the wort. This worked a little as it kicked things up but for no more than 24-48 hours max, then it stalled again.

I became so aware of aeration, I purchased a plastic stir spoon/paddle with holes and slots in it to create more bubbles and air in the wort. I'm afraid I may have ruined the brew already because I stirred it hard on day 4-5 and yesterday i swirled both pretty good (no splashing) with the lid on.

How should I throw the Notty or S-05 in? Sprinkle directly on top, make a starter, stir, or no stir?

@wyzazz: All 3 recipes called for a 60 minute mash at 150. I would usually heat the water to 170, put it in my MLT to preheat, add grain, wait till it's about 150-152, then close the lid to mash for an hour. I pretty much hit all my mash temps and times spot on. The Belgian might have dipped to 146-147 at the end of the 60 minutes but only because I kept opening the lid like the noob I am.

The temps never drastically dropped and have been pretty much right at room temp. The Caramel did call to be fermented at 62-65 so I put it into my tub/swamp cooler with water and ice packs. So it went from approx. 80 to 62 but that was only right after pitching pretty much. Don't know how else you put it into a swamp cooler and avoid a drastic temp drop.

I have an extra pack of Notty at home and could put that in the two AHS brews tonight but let me ask this about introducing a new dry yeast in. For the Belgian, AHS recommended Fermentis SafBrew T-58 as the Dry Yeast option (I used White Labs Belgian Wit Ale 400) and DanStar Windsor Ale for the Pumpkin Dry Yeast option (I used Wihte Labs Bristish Ale 005).

Should I stick with what AHS recommended for Dry Yeast? How would using Notty or S-05 affect things/taste/etc? Or would it not affect anything?

Also, AHS sells for cheap with each kit an optional BrewVint Yeast Fuel. Should I be buying and using this going forward? I have one small pill of it now. Instructions are to add with 10 mins left in boil but could I use it now? Don't know if that would rouse the yeast.

Thanks a ton guys. First thing is to get this back on track and tonight I begin researching yeast and yeast starters. Dangit, I was so focused on efficiencies and hitting my target OG's that I dropped the ball on yeast and yeast starters and found another way to screw things up.

I guess while I am disappointed and hope to be able to salvage these brews, I'm having a ton of fun learning about brewing...and man, there is a lot to learn!

Jeff

Mash temps/length should be fine to get conversion, I'd rouse the yeast and warm up the fermenters. Give it a few days and check the gravity.

wyzazz said:

Mash temps/length should be fine to get conversion, I'd rouse the yeast and warm up the fermenters. Give it a few days and check the gravity.

Click to expand...

By rouse the yeast you mean stir the entire wort in the fermenter including the stuff that's already settled to the bottom? Stir it for 2-3 minutes?

Any ideas for warming up the fermenter? I could put it next to a window so it gets more direct sunlight. It wouldn't be huge direct sun. My AC at the house is 72-73 in the evening and about 77-78 during the day while at work. I don't know how else to warm it up. outside is too hot to put it there.

From my experience in getting "stuck" ferments on my first Ag batches to now where I am getting much better at hitting my FG I would second the advice on the starters and also suggest keeping really good track of your fermentation temps.

Starters- read about them here and make them at least a couple of days in advance. From reading your post it is unclear if you were adding any malt into your starter or not (DME or from your MLT). For a 5 gallon ale batch at OGs around 1.045-1.050 I usually make a 2-3 pint starter (I use 1/3 cup of DME for each pint of water in the start). This works for me but check out the resources to see what you need and find out what works for you.

Fermentation temps- Try to keep as constant a temp of wort as possible during fermentation. I shoot for 65 degrees, but if it is a little higher or lower that is fine as long as it remains as stable as possible. Again this is the temperature of the qort in the carboy and not the ambient temperature, there can be a huge difference. The swamp cooler works great as long as you monitor it. Check your temps a couple times a day and keep a log.

Experience/knowledge is the key to getting your gravity down to target FG. Sounds like you are brewing a lot, which is really good, keep good notes about your process all the way through and keep practicing.

Every time I've ever made a starter, my fermentation has been slow to kick-off. Next time, assuming the temp of the wort is low enough, just pitch the yeast straight in.

Velosim,

I wasn't adding any DME to make a starter. I was putting the liquid yeast into a cup of water. Now that I've been thinking about starters all day, I think I may have confused making a start with rehydrating yeast. I'll check my HTB book when i get home. Yep, I think that's exactly what I was doing.

Regarding DME, when you make a starter, don't you need to match the DME to the type of beer? Like a Belgian DME for a Belgian White Beer? When you do that aren't you in essence making a small extra beer? Seems weird to make a starter with extract for an AG batch.

I will keep practicing, I'm having a LOT of fun with this. I've have a batch of EdWort's Apfelwein fermenting and am in the process of gathering the ingredients to make 3-4 meads in the next week or two. I don't even drink very much at all and will give most of this away but I'm having a ton of fun with this hobby. I was super pumped at my increasing efficiencies and 100% nailing the target OG for my last brew but now I'm disappointed that I've got 3 brews that are all stalled out because I frigged up on the yeast starter! Argh. You think you got one thing nailed and then you find more pitfalls!

For me it's the opposite of throwing in the towel....it makes me grit my teeth and want to brew again soon till i get it right!

hmm, I guess lack of aeration wasn't a problem cuz all that stirring should have been enough. I stir mine alot and shake the hell out of them about 30-60mins after I pitch and thats been fine.

oh ok, so you;ve just been rehydrating the yeast. def not necessary with liquid yeast, and not really needed with dry yeast either. you're not even that far underpitched so im surprised you're getting such bad stalls. introducing a diff yeast like notty will take a bit away from the yeast characteristics, but I think you'd only be able to notice in the belgian white. you should be able to just sprinkle it in, but giving a swirl wouldn't hurt.

as for the starters, you can chill it, then just decant the liquid and only pitch the yeast so it doesn't matter what DME you use.

To rouse the yeast either gently swirl the fermenter, or take a long sanitized spoon and gently scrape the bottom of the fermenter to "throw" the yeast back in to suspension.

Just to confirm: I'm a complete and total moron.

Pg. 9 of HTB #5: Rehydrate the DRIED yeast. While you are waiting for the brew water to boil, rehydrate one packet of DRIED ale yeast. Put 1 cup of warm (95 to 105) preboiled water into your sanitized jar, and stir in the yeast. Cover with plastic wrap and wait 20 minutes before pitching."

Well hot damn! I was rehydrating my yeast rather than making a yeast starter. Frickin frack @#@*#&%@^. No wonder my AG batches with liquid yeast all had issues. I read that liquid yeast has about 1/4 of the necessary yeasties for a 5G batch.

So now to a fix so I can save these brews (hopefully)...what's the best way to do this:

1.) Do I buy the exact same liquid yeast, make a starter for each one, then pitch? My LHBS probably has all the White Labs yeasts. If not, I'd have to order from AHS, wait 2-3 days till shipment comes, then 2-3 days to make a yeast starter.

2.) Do I buy the AHS recommended dry yeast for each brew and pitch that? I could make a starter or just sprinkle the dry yeast in as dcp27 recommended above?

3.) When I make a starter, should I make it with the actual wort instead of DME? I can do this now obviously since wort is made. Seems like wort from the specific batch would be best and not alter flavors as much ( I may have already done that though).

Thanks to all for helping me diagnose my issues.

wyzazz said:

To rouse the yeast either gently swirl the fermenter, or take a long sanitized spoon and gently scrape the bottom of the fermenter to "throw" the yeast back in to suspension.

Click to expand...

As I mentioned in the OP, I roused the yeast last night by swirling the fermenters. That didn't seem to cause any activity although I will take a reading tomorrow after 2 days.

Jeff

Centexbear said:

3.) When I make a starter, should I make it with the actual wort instead of DME? I can do this now obviously since wort is made. Seems like wort from the specific batch would be best and not alter flavors as much ( I may have already done that though).

Thanks to all for helping me diagnose my issues.

Click to expand...

using the actual wort from the original batch is called a "real wort starter":

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/how-do-i-make-real-wort-starter-158882/

If you are making a "real wort starter" (RWS) then you have to keep your wort for a few days while your RWS cranks up and is ready to pitch. One option is the "no-chill" method:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/exploring-no-chill-brewing-117111/

Centexbear said:

As I mentioned in the OP, I roused the yeast last night by swirling the fermenters. That didn't seem to cause any activity although I will take a reading tomorrow after 2 days.

Jeff

Click to expand...

You'll want to warm the temp around 7-8F after rousing, helps to wake them little beasties up. If that doesn't work then an active starter or a fresh yeast cake will usually do the trick.

Centexbear said:

Just to confirm: I'm a complete and total moron.

Pg. 9 of HTB #5: Rehydrate the DRIED yeast. While you are waiting for the brew water to boil, rehydrate one packet of DRIED ale yeast. Put 1 cup of warm (95 to 105) preboiled water into your sanitized jar, and stir in the yeast. Cover with plastic wrap and wait 20 minutes before pitching."

Well hot damn! I was rehydrating my yeast rather than making a yeast starter. Frickin frack @#@*#&%@^. No wonder my AG batches with liquid yeast all had issues. I read that liquid yeast has about 1/4 of the necessary yeasties for a 5G batch.

So now to a fix so I can save these brews (hopefully)...what's the best way to do this:

1.) Do I buy the exact same liquid yeast, make a starter for each one, then pitch? My LHBS probably has all the White Labs yeasts. If not, I'd have to order from AHS, wait 2-3 days till shipment comes, then 2-3 days to make a yeast starter.

2.) Do I buy the AHS recommended dry yeast for each brew and pitch that? I could make a starter or just sprinkle the dry yeast in as dcp27 recommended above?

3.) When I make a starter, should I make it with the actual wort instead of DME? I can do this now obviously since wort is made. Seems like wort from the specific batch would be best and not alter flavors as much ( I may have already done that though).

Thanks to all for helping me diagnose my issues.

Click to expand...

Since rousing doesn't seem to be doing the trick then you should switch into salvage mode at this point.

Don't bother with #1. Throwing good money after bad (liquid yeasts are expensive...save the cash when you know you've got all other aspects of the AG process nailed down).

I'd go for #2 and rough approximate at best. Or I'd just say to the hell with it and pitch a pack of Notty into each and call it good.

As to #3: You can certainly use leftover wort as a starter, but then that becomes tricky in your timing of one batch to another.

I stick with DME/LME or starters and most others do this as well. Even if you pitch the whole starter in the beer you are talking 1-2 L of starter into 5-6 gallons of wort...not a biggie. You can also cold-crash the yeast (1-2 days in the fridge) so that the yeast settle out and form a layer on the bottom. You then pour off the majority of the liquid, leaving the yeast layer. You then resuspend the yeast layer in what little liquid there is left and pour that slurry into your wort. Pretty much nothing but yeast going into your wort with this method.

Good luck!

Guys,

Well I am crawling back to the forum this morning to report my failure. I gotta admit, it was almost too hard to come back here and fess up....but in the spirit of learning and maybe helping other noobs, here I am.

You won't believe it. I started thinking hard about my equipment and hydrometer and thermometer yesterday. Last week I purchased a backup hydro and thermo so last night I wanted to test my equipment. My freaking thermometer was reading 12-14 degrees below temperature! I tested that same thermo when I first got it and it was perfect. Somehow its busted in a few months.

I'm guessing it worked good for a bit which is why my first two batches came out great, not because they were extract vs. all grain. So that means on the 3 AG batches everything was way low...my water temps, my mash temps, my strike water, my initial fermentation, the wort temp when I pitched, everything.

LOL Damnation. I feel like such an idiot but I guess there was another lesson learned. Test all equipment before a brew session and always have 2 thermometers so you know they are the right temps.

Geesh, I feel dumb. These brews have multiple issues, I feel like I need to just toss em and start over.

It may take awhile but dangit, I'm gonna get this right eventually and starting with an AHS Bavarian Hefeweizen AG kit this Sunday.

Centexbear said:

Guys,

Well I am crawling back to the forum this morning to report my failure. I gotta admit, it was almost too hard to come back here and fess up....but in the spirit of learning and maybe helping other noobs, here I am.

You won't believe it. I started thinking hard about my equipment and hydrometer and thermometer yesterday. Last week I purchased a backup hydro and thermo so last night I wanted to test my equipment. My freaking thermometer was reading 12-14 degrees below temperature! I tested that same thermo when I first got it and it was perfect. Somehow its busted in a few months.

I'm guessing it worked good for a bit which is why my first two batches came out great, not because they were extract vs. all grain. So that means on the 3 AG batches everything was way low...my water temps, my mash temps, my strike water, my initial fermentation, the wort temp when I pitched, everything.

LOL Damnation. I feel like such an idiot but I guess there was another lesson learned. Test all equipment before a brew session and always have 2 thermometers so you know they are the right temps.

Geesh, I feel dumb. These brews have multiple issues, I feel like I need to just toss em and start over.

It may take awhile but dangit, I'm gonna get this right eventually and starting with an AHS Bavarian Hefeweizen AG kit this Sunday.

Click to expand...

Its probably not as bad as you think. You still got some conversion with your AG batches, right? (Did you do an iodine test?).

Mashing at lower temps means a MORE fermentable wort so if anything your beers should be over attenuated, not under as you are seeing. Its also possible that your temps were so low that you didn't have conversion at all...in that case your hydrometer reading would have been lower than it should have...was this the case?

Centexbear said:

My freaking thermometer was reading 12-14 degrees below temperature! I tested that same thermo when I first got it and it was perfect. Somehow its busted in a few months.

I'm guessing it worked good for a bit which is why my first two batches came out great, not because they were extract vs. all grain. So that means on the 3 AG batches everything was way low...my water temps, my mash temps, my strike water, my initial fermentation, the wort temp when I pitched, everything.

Click to expand...

... actually if it was reading low, that means you were over temp which would explain the full conversion and probably why you have such a high FG. maybe adding some amylase may help?

You are right. I guess I was over temp. When I thought I was at 150, if thermo is reading low, then you are right, the mash temp would have been 162-164.

On my first two AG batches I was 10 points and 4 points off target OG. On my 3rd AG brew, the Caramel Amber, I hit it on the money but I totally changed my sparge routine and did a double sparge with 20 minute rests each.

I did read something about amylase enzymes but didn't know if I should go that route. What about a yeast nutrient or energizer?

I don't think yeast nutrient would help at this point. The higher the mash, the more unfermentables, so adding nutrient won't fix that. I haven't used it before so I can't really vouch for it, but in theory the amylase enzymes should break down the complex sugars remaining to allow the yeast to eat more. Hopefully someone else can chime in with more info.

I would think the amylase could help, but they you might dry it out too far and it will be thin/cidery? Is this better than sweet/syrupy?

Here's my recommendation...instead of trying to make these batches perfect, chalk it up to a learning experience and let em' be. Put your energy into brewing some new stuff.

Bill, you are right. I think I'm going to do just that. Gonna do another brew this Sunday and I hope, with 2 new thermometers and a yeast starter, this will be a success.

I can't tell you guys how much I appreciate your advice and willingness to help me out. At the very least, I'm just glad to figure out a few big issues that I'm able to correct going forward.

Jeff

I have used amylase enzyme before with a high gravity old ale (1.102) I did that mashed at too high a temp (156 deg) and it brought my FG down from 1.046 to 1.022. It took about 2 weeks to finish this amylase enzyme induced fermentation so if you do go that route you'll need to give it a few extra weeks. My old ale turned out really good and much better with the use of the amylase enzyme I believe. Maybe you want to try it in one of the batches? I have also bottled several batches with FGs around 1.022 and they turned out to be very drinkable, not my best, but definitely not a total waste. You could well be surprised, so DON'T throw any of the batches away, instead bottle/keg them and try the, out over the next couple of months to see if they get better with age and drink 'em up .