My beer is sooooooo close

So far we only do extract brewing. We've done nearly 20 batches and they all have a sweet, sort of syrupy flavor in the background, just keeping our beer from the perfect flavor we want. The gravities have all been close, we've followed recipes to the letter, and we're maniacal about our sanitization.

Our next plan of action is to upgrade to full boils, but we're not sure what else to try. Any suggestions?

What are your typical final gravity readings like?

Invest in a MLT and do all grain!

Obviously, the better balance you have in your beer the better it is in most cases. If all of your brews have been on the somewhat sweet side, you may want to make sure that you balance out the sweetness of the malt with some more hops next time. Obviously you can go overboard with hops as well and throw out it of balance to the more bitter side as well.

As carne's probably trying to get at as well is are you beers reaching their expected FG? You'll definately want to check your fermentation practices to ensure that you're reaching full attenuation for your yeast strain or you'll end up with a sweeter beer as well.

One of our last was OG 1.048 and ending 1.011, another was 1.042 with and ending gravity of 1.014. They're all slightly off in flavor...FRUSTRATING! We thought it was the extract twang we hear about, but we're not sure.

rsmith179 said:

Obviously, the better balance you have in your beer the better it is in most cases. If all of your brews have been on the somewhat sweet side, you may want to make sure that you balance out the sweetness of the malt with some more hops next time. Obviously you can go overboard with hops as well and throw out it of balance to the more bitter side as well.

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Great. Now my boyfriend is saying seeeeeeeeeeeeeeee more hops. Thanks. He's a certifiable hop addict.

It very well could be the twang you're tasting. You could be caramelizing the extract a little. Your gravities seem to be perfectly in line, so that's good. I have to say I never got a perfect beer from extract, and I know there are good extract beers out there, but being a bit of a snob, the flavor was never quite what I wanted it to be.

How are your fermenting temperatures? Are you pitching enough yeast? Best to eliminate all possible causes of any off flavor.

IrishLass said:

Great. Now my boyfriend is saying seeeeeeeeeeeeeeee more hops. Thanks. He's a certifiable hop addict.

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Oh, you should post a recipe too, so we can see what you're making. Maybe you're just making a beer that's less balanced than you like?

My .02:

But a 5 or 10 gallon cooler for a MLT. I do partial mashes and its uncanny how much better my beers have gotten with just a little more waiting time each brew session.

What size are your boils? Syrupy flavor sounds like might be from a smaller boil, I brewed with 2 gallon boils for a while, it worked but when I upgraded to a 5 gallon pot it made a world of difference. I went all grain a week later.

If I were you I would go to Ace Hardware(where I got mine) and pick up the Bayou Classic 30 qt turkey fryer. I picked it up(special order) for the tune of about 60 bucks includng tax.
Then you can do full 5 gal boils with ease and be well on your way to an AG setup.

I agree though that hops may balance your syrupy taste and can mask some off flavors from the malt.

Our recipe with the OG 1.042 - FG 1.014 was

Oatmeal Stout

6 lb lme
3/4 lb roasted barley
1/2 lb choc malt
1/2 lb black patent
1 lb flaked oats
1 oz Saaz
Nottingham

We were a little worried about the burnt flavor from so much black patent, but it turned out good, a little smoky. It was a good recipe, just kinda twangy. We live in a 100 year old house in Denver, so the temp fluctuates a little, but its always between 65-70 degrees.

GunnerMan said:

What size are your boils? Syrupy flavor sounds like might be from a smaller boil, I brewed with 2 gallon boils for a while, it worked but when I upgraded to a 5 gallon pot it made a world of difference. I went all grain a week later.

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From what we lose during boiling, I'd guess maybe 3 gallon boils. I have a 4 gallon pot, but I'm anal when it comes to boil overs on the antique gas range. We've thought about partial mash or getting a turkey fryer for the patio so we can accomodate a full boil. I'm cheap... so sell me on the upgrade.

IrishLass said:

From what we lose during boiling, I'd guess maybe 3 gallon boils. I have a 4 gallon pot, but I'm anal when it comes to boil overs on the antique gas range. We've thought about partial mash or getting a turkey fryer for the patio so we can accomodate a full boil. I'm cheap... so sell me on the upgrade.

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Upgrade. Look at CL. Bigger boils will be beneficial for less caramelization, and at the same time you won't have to worry about ruining that stove. Because really, it is just a matter of time before you look away for 3 seconds and you have wort everywhere.

Just search until you find something:
Homebrew Equipment - All Grain Setup

IrishLass said:

From what we lose during boiling, I'd guess maybe 3 gallon boils. I have a 4 gallon pot, but I'm anal when it comes to boil overs on the antique gas range. We've thought about partial mash or getting a turkey fryer for the patio so we can accomodate a full boil. I'm cheap... so sell me on the upgrade.

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Well, that should take care of the syrupy/extracty taste you're getting. If you start with 6 gallons, you should end up with a non-carmelized wort and better beer as a result. Turkey fryers go on sale for about $40 or so at times- you get the burner and the pot. It's cheap, and worth it.

Of course, then you'll need a way to cool the wort, so if you're handy you can build an immersion wort chiller. Those cost about $60 if you buy them, but you can make one for about 1/2 that.

As far as partial mash- you can do it NOW. You don't need any special equipment, except for a very large grain bag. A nice mesh bag (like they use for wine) is about $8 or so, and it's washable and reusable. That's really all you need to start making PM beers. I made my first PM in my bottling bucket. I used the big grain bag to line the bottling bucket (it fits just fine) and then put in the grain and water, and drained it out of my bottling spigot with some tubing. I wrapped a sleeping blanket around the bucket to hold the temperatures. If you follow Deathbrewer's tutorial, you could do it in a pot on the stove, or like I did, in the bottling bucket, until you build a MLT. You may notice a big improvement in your beers, with a full boil and a partial mash!

Get a bigger kettle. I had the same problem and an upgrade to a 5 gal kettle did the trick.

Think about when you add the extract, don't wait for the wort to start boiling, add it before the boil, this also aided me in elimintating off flavors.

Cool the wort quickly. I simply put mine if the bath tub after running cold water. I'd imagine in Denver the water in the pipes is pretty cold at this time. And just circulate the water every 10 minutes or so and it will cool down quickly.

Voodoo... Thanks a million for finding that CL ad. We've decided that we need a turkey fryer, ginormous pot and a wort chiller anyway, may as well add the mash tun to the list, just in case. Can't really beat $120 for the lot.

Yooper... Woohoo, a Yooper reply! Seriously, I think we've decided to at least upgrade to full boils with the option for all grain (when we realize how good an idea it really is). PS, keep the recipes coming!


Really, whats a few bucks when you think about average beer vs. great beer?

+1 on the bigger pot and burner. Lower volumes mean lower hops utilization and carmelization.

I, for one, would hold off on the immersion chiller if you have a big pot and a sink that fits it nicely. Here's what I do:

4 days prior to brewing, I start freezing water and saving ice from the 'fridge. I use the Tupperware containers and freeze 'em solid.

After my boils (I do AG and full-boils), I place the kettle in a sink and add the huge chunks of ice and water. I can chill 5.5 gallons of wort to 70F in 25 minutes by stirring and swapping ice. I use less water than my brother uses with his IC.

Give 'er it a go and let us know!

IrishLass said:

Really, whats a few bucks when you think about average beer vs. great beer?

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This is really how I look at it. Yes, we have to watch our pocketbooks sometimes, but really we're talking about a craft here. The better you get, the better your beer gets, and the more proud you can be of making something so awesome. A few bucks thrown at good basic equipment makes a huge difference.

I'll have to say, this is one of the few forums I've been on where a newbie isn't criticized for creating a new thread while not having a thousand posts. Great replies. Thanks guys! We're officially switching to full boils, possible partial mash this weekend.

You guys rock :rockin:

We've just cracked a couple of IPAs we brewed 4 months ago, DEFINITE caramel flavor. Bingo.

Since you are moving to full boils AND if you are into pinching pennies, all grain is the way to go. The cost of your beers will be cut in half for ingredients. There is more up front cost of equipment but you are already almost there with full boils.

I only got up to 8 batches with the syrupy taste you describe, and I was doing full boils! The taste of my beers improved immensely starting with batch #9 because I shed the training wheels of extract and went all grain. It's only a little more work. Go for it. You'll be glad you did.

Well, I'm glad to hear other people have the same issue, and it's not our sanitizing, fermentation or temperatures. Kinda seems to be an extract/low boil volume problem. We'll be picking up our new equipment on Weds.

You may want to switch your brand of extract. Find one that is more fermentable (it depends on how they mashed it). I know EXACTLY what you're dealing with, I had beers that were too sweet with extract. I am the worlds biggest cheapskate, but going to AG has removed my sweet beer problems.

No idea what brand it is, we buy it in bulk at our LHBS

Another thing you might want to try is late extract additions. Try adding your extract towards the end of the boil (last 15 minutes). This will give you better hop utilization and drastically reduce any chance of carmelization.

I agree with the late extract addition. It made a noticeable difference for me. Start with a little DME at the beginning and add a majority of the LME at the end. A program like BeerSmith really helps with boil volumes, plus it's a great help in converting extract to AG. It is possible to make incredible extract brews, though.

Nice to see your upgrading to bigger pot etc, as for the immersion chiller, it is nice but not 100% needed, I used an ice bath with ice twice, you might not get the best cold break in the world but it has produced some very good beer on my end, although I now own a cheap chiller.

AG is very cheap, I was spending 40-50 on my extract batches from my LHBS so the turkey fryer I bought paid for it self in 2 batches, my sparge kettle was 35, my MLT cost me about ~25 bucks- (I got a 5 gallon cooler free but I have seen some nice rectangular iglo coolers fo very cheap in target)
I can walk out of my lhbs store spending no more than 25 bucks a batch now so 4-5 brews and my whole setup is paid for AND you get better beer that you have a lot more control over. You also have 10 pounds of spent grain in which to use for bread, cookies, dog bones, cereal, compost and the opportunity to tell your friends that your beer went from grain to glass in 4-8 weeks.

Now for all of the extract beers that we've been saving in the basement for the summer bbq... will that syrupy flavor age out?

hate to say it, but probably not. if the sweetness disappears, it's because fermentation was not complete and restarted in the bottle. if that happens, you may have bottle bombs.

The sweetness will probably stay (if my experience is any indication), but the flavors will mature, so overall the beer may become more drinkable. don't dump it, but don't get your hopes up.

I've heard of adding beano tablets to beer, which breaks down complex sugars into simple sugars, and allows almost complete fermentation. You could give it a shot, but you'd have to gently get that bottled beer back into a fermenter... You'd also probably end up repitching yeast, but you'd end up with a very dry beer.

I agree with the late extract addition. My extract beers improved greatly when I started the late additions and full-volume boils. Extract is concentrated wort from a previous boil, and there is no benefit to further boiling other than to sterilize it. Fifteen minutes should be enough.

Apparently the extract "twang" is much more pronounced with liquid extract especially as it ages, and is not as apparent with DME.

PintOfBitter said:

hate to say it, but probably not. if the sweetness disappears, it's because fermentation was not complete and restarted in the bottle. if that happens, you may have bottle bombs.

The sweetness will probably stay (if my experience is any indication), but the flavors will mature, so overall the beer may become more drinkable. don't dump it, but don't get your hopes up.

I've heard of adding beano tablets to beer, which breaks down complex sugars into simple sugars, and allows almost complete fermentation. You could give it a shot, but you'd have to gently get that bottled beer back into a fermenter... You'd also probably end up repitching yeast, but you'd end up with a very dry beer.

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Their gravity readings are fine. They're not getting this taste from an under-attenuated beer. I think adding beano to anything is just wrong. The beer is done, it just isn't up to par with what they want. I think the change in process and equipment is a big first step here.

IrishLass said:

Our recipe with the OG 1.042 - FG 1.014 was

Oatmeal Stout

6 lb lme
3/4 lb roasted barley
1/2 lb choc malt
1/2 lb black patent
1 lb flaked oats
1 oz Saaz
Nottingham

We were a little worried about the burnt flavor from so much black patent, but it turned out good, a little smoky. It was a good recipe, just kinda twangy. We live in a 100 year old house in Denver, so the temp fluctuates a little, but its always between 65-70 degrees.

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IMO, 1oz of Saaz is not enough to balance this beer out, not high enough AA%. Assuming you use the whole oz at 60mins at 3 AAU's, you would get 11.34 IBU's. Ray Daniels(Designing Great Beers) suggests to add a bittering hop addition that will give you a BU:GU of 1 in a Stout. With this recipe your BU:GU would be .21.

In my Oatmeal Stout(1.060) I use 1oz of Chinook at 60mins and then 1oz of Yakima Goldings at 20mins. I don't think I could balance it any better.

I hope this helps

I will throw my vote in for:

1. partial mash (can add a lot of options to flavor, color, etc)
2. full boil (I made a cheap immersion chiller with 25' of copper and some compression fittings for under $30- totally worth it)
3. late extract addition. The last full extract batch I did was a wheat style with 100% DME. I added a pound up front and boiled the hops for 30 minutes, and then added the rest of the DME with about 5 minutes left (turn off the gas when you do this). This was the clearest, lightest colored (which is what I was going for here), and best (no "twang") extract beer I have made to date.

I am a few steps away from going all grain, but until then these are the changes that have helped my beer a bunch.

it might not disapear but it might mellow out and make it much more drinkable. If it dosen't start to mellow out, then you can always brew some quick pale ales and wheat beers.

I picked up our new (well, used) equipment yesterday to start on full boils and all grain batches ...when we do a little more research. The craigslist seller happens to be an HBT'er, too! Super nice and very informative guy, thanks Josh!! And thanks again for sharing the ad, Voodoo Can't wait to give this beer thing another shot.

IrishLass said:

I picked up our new (well, used) equipment yesterday to start on full boils and all grain batches ...when we do a little more research. The craigslist seller happens to be an HBT'er, too! Super nice and very informative guy, thanks Josh!! And thanks again for sharing the ad, Voodoo Can't wait to give this beer thing another shot.

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No problem.

Also, I say go for it with the all grain batch. You have most of what you need now and it really is no more difficult than soaking, rinsing, and boiling. Piece of cake.

If you are doing full boils, AND going AG, then I'd say you are good to go. Def. have to use a chiller though. 50ft of copper tubing at Menards was like $30. You could make one IC with that, or 2 CFCs (but you'd need a few more things). Either chiller will work good.

Once you start doing AG, you may notice your beer is cleaner and fresher-tasting, but you will only have begun to tweak your process even further. You'll find information on how to adjust temps to control certain characteristics of your beer, and all kinds of things. Plus, if you buy bulk and crush your own (maybe some time down the road) you will start saving some serious $$ per batch.

IrishLass said:

So far we only do extract brewing. We've done nearly 20 batches and they all have a sweet, sort of syrupy flavor in the background, just keeping our beer from the perfect flavor we want. The gravities have all been close, we've followed recipes to the letter, and we're maniacal about our sanitization.

Our next plan of action is to upgrade to full boils, but we're not sure what else to try. Any suggestions?

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I think that sweet syrup flavor is what people call the "extract twang". Since everyone's already mentioned going all grain, let me suggest some other things you might try.

Maybe try a different brand of LME, or switch to DME. I used to get that twang taste when I did extract batches and used bulk LME from the homebrew store, but I got it a lot less when I started using either DME or Cooper's Light LME instead.

One other thing I think helps avoid the twang taste is don't try and make really big beers with extract - if you make a beer about .040-.045 there is a lot less chance of the twang then if you start pushing .060 or higher.

Also, I know this kind of flys in the face of the common wisdom about making beer, but you might try some dextrose in your brew - not a lot if you're worried about the taste, but a little bit will get the yeast really going and dry the beer out - especially this is a good idea to do if you make beer from a can kit and use the yeast that comes in the can - that kind of yeast has a sweet tooth and it really wants some dextrose or simple sugar to take off and get going.

why even boil the liquid malt extract, Instructions for my my muntons American Style Light Beer lme is ad 6 pints boiling water to the extract and suger in the fermenter to disolve and then top with cool water this is for a 5 gallon batch never had a sweet or tangy taste in 5 batches now I do add 4 oz of "ROSES" sweetened lime juice to the the secondary
Thoughts from others on the burned caramel from LME partial boils all my other brews 5 have been grain steeps with DME , full boils 2 1/2 gallon batches and I've not tasted any of flavors Lucky me i guess