Dome or no Dome? That is the question.

I've been looking around for a new Conical for a while now... I'm noticing a few trends here and there. Some that I like and some I dont.

I was curious, in the case of users of Conical Fermenters that have domed lids. How do you like them? Do you find that the extra headspace is beneficial even when you are doing half batches (eg. 14g fermenter with a 5-6G batch)

Seems that Blichmann, SS Brewtech and More Beer use domed lids. Bru-Gear, Spike, and Stout, don't.

I've also noticed that Bru-Gear, Spike, and Stout, and MoreBeer are all welded fittings. And SS and Blichman, use Weldless fittings.


I wonder which would you rather have? For Price, SS is the best bang for the buck, but part of me just can't get past the fact that they use Weldless fittings and NPT Ball Valves. Sounds like a lot of extra work to clean and keep clean. Bru-Gear is a bit more pricey but has all the right features but no Domed lid. Stout is very nice as well, but very pricey. Not as expensive as MoreBeer, but close.

Blichmann... well Its over-priced in my opinion.

Spike. I love their products, but the conical they produce is pretty expensive, and a bit undersized for a 10G batch.

Thoughts?

I agree in that weldless sucks and Blichmann is overpriced, especially due to the rough surface finish and the weldless fittings. Only you will be able to decide if you need a domed lid or not, and that will depend on the fermenter volume, your batch size, and the dome volume. I don't see how a domed lid will be of any use in a 14g fermenter when fermenting 6g. Do you really expect to have 8g of krausen, and if so, what's so bad about it going out a blowoff if you have a flat lid?

I think it has to do with the extra headspace.

Also, I would be willing to bet that If i wanted to I could purchase the same domed top from SS and fit it on Bru-Gear... They appear to be identical conical fermenters. I am leaning towards Bru-Gear, but I'm waiting to see if he will go ahead and put out his $50 black friday deal again... If that happens, I think its going to be an easy decision, based on features...

I mean if money were no object... I'd have Glacier build me one, but throwing almost $2K at one just isnt feasible for me.

Bowtiebrewery said:

I think it has to do with the extra headspace.

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Right, that's what I'm saying. I don't think there's any reason for more headspace other than to keep krausen from blowing off. If it blows off, no big deal.

I have a stout and two SS Brewtech conicals. I like the lid closures on the SS better than the Stout. I also like the legs being welded on the SS conical better than the Stout stand. The attached handles on the SS are also a plus and makes it easier to carry their conicals. As for ball valves, I prefer the Stout's. I even bought Stout sanitary ball valves to replace those which came on the SS Brewtech conicals. Finally, I like the SS elbow on the dump valve better that the Stout conical which just dumps straight down, so I bought a SS Brewtech elbow to add to my Stout conical.

I also have the SS Brewtech FTS temperature control system which uses a flat lid, not a domed lid. When I use the FTS system, I use the flat lid and when I don't need temp. control (e.g. saisons), I use the dome lid. I don't notice any difference and don't know why you would need a domes lid unless you are filling your conical to the top and need more headspace in the lid for the krausen. I usually brew 5 - 5 1/2 gallon batches, so I don't really need the head space.

A lot of the Stout conicals have welded legs, FWIW. I have one. It's done very nicely, too. There a large plates welded to the fermenter for each leg and the leg is welded to the plate. The legs aren't simply welded to the fermenter.

^ He probably has the longer taller conicals with the lid being closed by an arm with a screw and wingnut... I agree, those are not fun to use. I'm definitely not considering that conical at all from Stout.

I will say this... SS Brewtech has been extremely responsive to my inquiries... I really wish I could say the same for Bru-Gear I asked them questions last year regarding their pots, and I don't think I ever got a response. I'm only 2 days on my original query to them, but I doubt I'll get a response. They must run a small shop there.

I have two of the 12.5gal conicals from Americanhomebrewing on eBay. Just looked and he has none posted right now for some reason.

They're great quality and I got two shipped for under $700. I do wish I had a thermowell, been debating on buying a T for the lid or not.

Stout really turned me off with their customer service, and I did not want a conical with weldless fittings so there was no way I was doing SS. Didnt leave much else in a decent price range...

I have a conical from ssbrewtech, and mine does not have weldless fittings that everyone is mentioning, my brew kettle and mash tun do though.
Did they use to have weldless on the conicals?

Britinusa said:

I have a conical from ssbrewtech, and mine does not have weldless fittings that everyone is mentioning, my brew kettle and mash tun do though.
Did they use to have weldless on the conicals?

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I think it's just the thermowell from what I recall.

No I asked about this... When they launched they had a welded Thermowell fitting in there... They said they don't do that anymore and will not go back to it.

I am fairly certain that the reason they are doing this has to be labor and cost. If I was running a business, I can totally see why they are doing that, a good TIG welder is worth their weight, just look at the stuff that Spike Brewing puts out. I didnt ask, but I wonder if the welds on all the ports are done here in the US, or if someone in China is doing them.

I wonder if a moderator would be able to get a thread going with someone from SS to answer questions about these things. I feel pretty bad continuously going back to them to ask them questions like this. The guy must be getting pretty fed up with me by now.

iijakii said:

I think it's just the thermowell from what I recall.

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You are correct. That turned me off as well. It makes no sense to go 95% of the way there and then cheap out like that.

I have a feeling that they buy all their conicals in china, prefabed with the SS Outlets, and pre punched (or maybe the punch them in house). I bet that they were unable to get the vender to install the thermowell without the added cost. It is cheaper to go with the Weldless thermowell. They said they have had no problems with the weldless thermowell.

Fine I get that, but its a potential fail point for a conical. People who are willing to pay at least $500 for a piece of gear would most likely want to be into a full sanitary setup where cleaning requires no disassembly.

Of course they will say that they have had no problems and I agree with you. You might as well go all sanitary.

Kevin... I saw your post a while back on that and was drooling over how nice it is! I'm working a few angles with the wife regarding replacing the fridge downstairs with an upright freezer... She doesnt quite understand how I can make it work like a fridge. I love your setup, but I think my electrical bill would go through the roof If I had one of those in my place.

I actually used to have a small countertop direct draw fridge and I think my bill was like an extra $40-50 each month. Bev-Air makes good stuff, but just sooo power hungry.

A little update,

Morebeer has been very responsive to me regarding their conical fermenter. They are currently at $699. They have a lifetime warranty on their conical... Thats something that is pretty serious. Stout and Bru-Gear state a 1-year warranty. Also Bru-gear still has not gotten back to me regarding my questions on their manufacturing process.

Only one thing I'm not a fan of on the Morebeer conical. The sampling valve comes standard on it instead of a butterfly valve or TC Ball Valve. Not sure how sanitary that is, and some users have reported that they have problems with it leaking. But to MoreBeer's credit they will replace it free of charge without issue.

I really wish Brewhemoth was still in business. They had one serious piece of gear...

My thoughts are that it's welded stainless steel. It shouldn't exactly be randomly breaking a couple years down the road. Not sure I'd spend more money to get a better warranty on an item like this.

I agree. Nothing will randomly fail on a fermenter. As long as it holds water and there are no manufacturer's defects, you're good. Either one of those problems should be corrected whether you have a warranty or not.

Yes and or no in this case. I finally have a bit of informatioin based on some web crawling on how SS and Bru-Gear source and fab there equipment.

It does not appear that Bru-Gear fabricates anything on the hombrew fermenters. They do dedicate quite a bit of fabrication to their commercial side though. All conicals appear to come pre shipped from a port of call (China) with welded on TC fittings.

You might wonder why I'm nutty about this. Another member here OrangeHero has some Stout kettles, that follow the same protocol. Not only did he have pinhole leaks in his welds but the welds were messy and out of alignment. He went through hell to get Stout to work with him on these things.

I'm located on the East coast, and both Stout and Bru-Gear are located on the West-Coast. I'm a bit gun-shy when dealing with people that are that far away, especially after seeing what happened to him. Additionally, research the huge BIAC thread regarding issues. Chinese made jacketed brew-vessel/fermenter.

At least More-beer, while being located primarily on the West Coast they have a warehouse in PA. Which means, it can easily be sent back to them for inspection should anything happen.

I have also been talking to someone who works for a SS company here in CT, and raised the question about Sanitary SS and the difference from Chinese Steel and US sourced. She said there is basically no difference. The welds she said were the most important part and she said that she has has not seen consistent welding from Chinese companies. She said its much better to weld on fittings by welders here in the US that the company can directly hold accountable.

I agree with her on this. I think its coming down to being most likely the More Beer Conical for me. I just wish the damn thing wasn't so expensive.

The domed lid also helps with the pressure rating (if that's important to you). I use positive pressure when cold crashing.

SSbrew now also has an option for sanitary valves. Thermowell and cooling coil are still "weld less". The cooling coil I added to my fermenter was "weldless" anyway so I was not concerned about the thermowell.

Yes Pressure is something that matters to me. I really should use positive pressure when cold crashing as well. I need to look up how to do that correctly. I currently just end up sucking in vodka off my airlock...

Yeah still not a fan of the Weldless fittings... just more areas to disassemble and clean. I would like a full CIP setup. Call me lazy, but it just seems easier.

Also just as a little update... I snagged a 60L Speidel Fermenter from the Cyber monday deals on MoreBeer... I'm going to see how I like it and if I even end up needing to purchase a new conical right now. I would definitely want a conical, but if I can make good beer in the Speidel and have no issues with sanitation, I'm going to stick with it, and invest my money elsewhere. Most likely a newly designed mash Tun by my good friends over at Spike.

You don't need to pressurize the fermenter like you're thinking for cold crashing, so any fermenter will be fine. All you need is a little gas flow for when the air and beer contract as they cool. Less than 1psi will do the job. My flat top fermenter is good up to 3 or 4 psi which is way more than you will need to apply when cold crashing. If you want to carbonate in your fermenter you need to start thinking about vessels that can take elevated pressures.

Flat plates are very very bad for pressure vessels. Quickly calculated with 2psi internal design pressure a 12" flat head needs to be a min of 0.16" thickness to prevent failure. Way too close to me, accidentally over pressurise faster than your relief valve (please have a relief valve) can purge and......oops

FYI, SSBrew has their relief valves set for 2-2.5psi. If you use one of their temp control kits that comes with a flat lid they state you can no longer do pressure transfers.

Bowtiebrewery said:

I need to look up how to do that correctly. I currently just end up sucking in vodka off my airlock...

Click to expand...

Back when I was using carboys I would blow up sanitized balloons with CO2 and stretch them over the airlock

With the conicals I have a secondary regulator on the CO2 tank in my conditioning fridge that is ran behind the fermenters. I then go to a tee with pressure gauge (see my red "no go" zone ) with a tri clamp connection. I really need to go back and add a valve between the tee and the fermenter. As is when setting the pressure the flow rate is so slow that the pressure lags a LOT because of the fermenter headspace requiring me to pull the tri clamp connection and hold a finger over the outlet when setting.

Don't forget to sanitize the CO2 components before connecting!!!!

jddevinn said:

FYI, SSBrew has their relief valves set for 2-2.5psi. If you use one of their temp control kits that comes with a flat lid they state you can no longer do pressure transfers.

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Wow, they must be really flimsy.

jddevinn said:

Flat plates are very very bad for pressure vessels. Quickly calculated with 2psi internal design pressure a 12" flat head needs to be a min of 0.16" thickness to prevent failure.

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Can you define failure? What type of material? 0.16" is HUGE! Are you serious? Can you please do your calculation based on a SS thickness 0.054" and a diameter of 15.5"? I'm curious.

I contacted Bru-Gear via there facebook page... This worked really well. I got a response back almost instantly. Their Conicals are rated for 5psi, however he stated that 2-3psi is more than enough to transfer. Additionally, Based on the options and the price... It looks like I will go ahead and buy a Bru-Gear with an upgraded Butterfly Valve on it. Even though I just bought the Speidel fermenter... I think it will be good to have both. I am going to wait one more day and see if my itch for this conical is not just an impulse buy.

If I buy it. I'll be sure to post up a review with a bunch of pictures and maybe a video as well.

kevink said:

Wow, they must be really flimsy.



Can you define failure? What type of material? 0.16" is HUGE! Are you serious? Can you please do your calculation based on a SS thickness 0.054" and a diameter of 15.5"? I'm curious.

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By failure I mean they do not pass ASME VIII code for pressure vessels (the type of code used for the stamping of kegs for instance).

Using ASME VIII Div 1. UG-34 unstayed flat heads and covers and assuming:

-material is 316 SS (I had the allowable stress handy)
-Joint Efficiency is 1 (ignoring any welds)
-ignoring any openings in the head that may require additional reinforcement
-assuming the head is bolted on the perimeter, the bolts will not fail first, and ignoring the gasket moment arm

A 0.05in thickness flat plate at 15.5in diameter fails code at 0.5psi.

FYI, a torispherical head (like on a propane tank) would be OK for >20psi with the same thickness.

Flat surfaces are very bad for pressure, all the force is in one direction instead of spread out.

I get that... I wonder if the domed lid that is included with the SS fits the Bru-Gear... they look identical in size and shape. I could always buy their dome
http://www.ssbrewtech.com/collections/accessories/products/copy-of-lid-3-tc-7-gal-fermenters

Also if thats true, I'd buy the heating/cooling coil solution they have instead of the one that Bru-Gear has, as it seems like its a better and more inclusive system:
http://www.ssbrewtech.com/collectio...ftss-temperature-control-for-14-gal-chronical

Failing code and the fermenter failing are two very different things. It in no way means that the flat top fermenter can not hold a few psi or will fail at a few psi. I thought something seemed off there, and hopefully you didn't scare too many people with flat top fermenters who do pressure transfers at 2psi! I'll put a pressure gauge on mine and report back.

Just imagine if everyone was too afraid to operate an electric brew system or a temperature controlled fermentation chamber like you see all over this site because they don't pass code. Nobody would be doing anything cool.

Bowtiebrewery said:

I get that... I wonder if the domed lid that is included with the SS fits the Bru-Gear... they look identical in size and shape. I could always buy their dome
http://www.ssbrewtech.com/collections/accessories/products/copy-of-lid-3-tc-7-gal-fermenters

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If you get someone to measure the Bru-Gear I can take a couple measurements of the 14gallon SStech.

Bowtiebrewery said:

Also if thats true, I'd buy the heating/cooling coil solution they have instead of the one that Bru-Gear has, as it seems like its a better and more inclusive system:
http://www.ssbrewtech.com/collectio...ftss-temperature-control-for-14-gal-chronical

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They also now have a conical with the coil mounted to the wall and sanitary valves. The conical I have now I made the coiling coil and added. I just ordered (2) of the ones with the coil already installed.

kevink said:

Failing code and the fermenter failing are two very different things. It in no way means that the flat top fermenter can not hold a few psi or will fail at a few psi. I thought something seemed off there, and hopefully you didn't scare too many people with flat top fermenters who do pressure transfers at 2psi! I'll put a pressure gauge on mine and report back.

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Yes, failing code and exploding in your face are two different things. However, ignoring codes requirements and (in at least SSbrew's case) clear manufactures warnings are not good practices. Would you intentional exceed pressure ratings of a keg, tire, pressure cooker, football, extra because you did it once and nothing failed?

kevink said:

Just imagine if everyone was too afraid to operate an electric brew system or a temperature controlled fermentation chamber like you see all over this site because they don't pass code. Nobody would be doing anything cool.

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Operating a correctly designed electric brew system with waterproof controls, grounding, GFC and so on is different than wiring up a system in a cardboard box using too thin gauge wires and unprotected light switches. I mean I could make a panel like this and take a picture of it not burning down and post it but that doesn't mean its a good idea.

If I end up buying it. I will definitely PM you for measurements. I'm betting its the same. It looks identical in the pictures.

In regards to the coil mounted to the wall. Not gonna happen for me. I'm not punching any holes in my conical just so I can retain a domed lid. NNOOOOOO Way... Again, like I said before... Just another place where it can fail, and another place that I have to dissemble.

Any thoughts to just wrapped a coil around the outside? My conicals have that and work great. I do wish I had a thermowell though, been debating on adding one or not. I get by without it, but not ideal when on heating cycle.

jddevinn said:

If you get someone to measure the Bru-Gear I can take a couple measurements of the 14gallon SStech.

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I sent out a PM to a Bru-Gear guy with a 14 on this site... Hopfully he gets back to me. When you get a chance please just reply or PM me with the measurement.

Thanks.

Bowtiebrewery said:

I sent out a PM to a Bru-Gear guy with a 14 on this site... Hopfully he gets back to me. When you get a chance please just reply or PM me with the measurement.

Thanks.

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I have the 14 gallon Bru Gear conical. The measurements of the top is 13.75" ID and 14 3/8" OD due to the rolled lip. Not a super exact measurement using a tape measure across the top.

I have had no issues pressure transferring using 2-3 PSI and use CO2 during cold crashing. I just leave my blowoff tube submerged during cold crash which is ~5 feet bellow the top. Every 12 hours or so I open the CO2 valve to displace any liquid that starts coming up the blowoff tube. If you get much above 3 PSI it starts leaking as the clamps for the lid allow pressure escape making a catastrophic failure almost impossible without modification. I also use a separate PRV set at 4 psi just in case and I imagine my blowoff tube with no hose clamps would also give way shortly after.

If you do go the submerged coil route with the bru gear you should know that it is absolutely not close to a sanitary design. It uses tri clamps inside the conical to secure the coil to the bottom side of the lid. The actual clamps are not designed to be sanitary. This is not apparent on the web site and was my only big complaint. I had the design modified in order to make it sanitary and potentially clean in place. A good stainless welder capable of these welds is going to cost $50-100+ and you must ask the right questions to make sure they are capable. When the welder I used told me he could not do the weld until his second argon tank he uses to back gas stainless was filled, I knew I had the right guy. I would boil the clamps prior to the modifications to ensure sanitation. I can provide pictures of this prior to modification and after if you are interested.

If you have an other specific questions about the bru gear I would be happy to answer. Here is a picture of it set up (I have since made a better stand than the wood blocks in the picture).

Thanks Brad... You did a glycol setup for it? Thats rad! Yeah, I don't think I'll be going with the Bru-Gear chilling coil setup. I don't like it that much and I feel like IF it does fit the same, the SS Brewtech looks like a better bang for the buck.

Oh and btw I see you keep busy riding/running while you brew. My brother has his treadmill and bike set up in his basement just like you do.

Bowtiebrewery said:

Thanks Brad... You did a glycol setup for it? Thats rad! Yeah, I don't think I'll be going with the Bru-Gear chilling coil setup. I don't like it that much and I feel like IF it does fit the same, the SS Brewtech looks like a better bang for the buck.

Oh and btw I see you keep busy riding/running while you brew. My brother has his treadmill and bike set up in his basement just like you do.

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I did go with a glycol setup. Easier than adding ice to a cooler. Maybe cheaper in the long run considering I got everything cheap off of craigslist. I agree the FTSS is a better bang for the buck. I had pumps and temperature control units lying around so it was not as big of a deal and I never looked into them being the same size. I am not sure if the neoprene jacket will fit easily without modification. The legs and how they connect are different between the two conicals. I have been meaning to make some sort of jacket. I have no problem holding my conical near freezing but it can't be very efficient.

You have to combat the calories from beer somehow and during the winter there is no way I am doing that outside.

Brad2287 said:

I did go with a glycol setup. Easier than adding ice to a cooler. Maybe cheaper in the long run considering I got everything cheap off of craigslist. I agree the FTSS is a better bang for the buck. I had pumps and temperature control units lying around so it was not as big of a deal and I never looked into them being the same size. I am not sure if the neoprene jacket will fit easily without modification. The legs and how they connect are different between the two conicals. I have been meaning to make some sort of jacket. I have no problem holding my conical near freezing but it can't be very efficient.

You have to combat the calories from beer somehow and during the winter there is no way I am doing that outside.

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I have an extra air conditioner lying around... I might consider doing that.

Any other complaints about the Bru-Gear? Its really starting to look like the winner for me... I really like the MoreBeer Conical but its about $100 more.

Bowtiebrewery said:

I have an extra air conditioner lying around... I might consider doing that.

Any other complaints about the Bru-Gear? Its really starting to look like the winner for me... I really like the MoreBeer Conical but its about $100 more.

Click to expand...

I have a similar setup, it works great. Instead of the individual temp controls I'm using a BCS for control and actuated valves so that I can have multiple fermentation at different temps going at the same time.

Only (1) fermenter attached for now...

With no insulation I imagine you are condensing water all over the place!!! any little section of pipe that I have without insulation is constantly sweating!

Bowtiebrewery said:

I have an extra air conditioner lying around... I might consider doing that.

Any other complaints about the Bru-Gear? Its really starting to look like the winner for me... I really like the MoreBeer Conical but its about $100 more.

Click to expand...

It really is quite easy to make and requires way less attention than ice water. I have no other complaints as far as product quality. The customer service certainly was not the most responsive I have ever dealt with.

jddevinn said:

I have a similar setup, it works great. Instead of the individual temp controls I'm using a BCS for control and actuated valves so that I can have multiple fermentation at different temps going at the same time.

Only (1) fermenter attached for now...

With no insulation I imagine you are condensing water all over the place!!! any little section of pipe that I have without insulation is constantly sweating!

Click to expand...

My whole setup is very similar to yours including the Kal clone.
I still might go that route when I add more fermenters. When I finish my basement this coming summer I will reevaluate.

I have had surprisingly little issues with condensation. It is most likely due to how super arid it gets in Colorado during the winter. Insulation is the next small project when I get the time. There is even very little buildup on the the evaporator coil lines where they enter/leave the cooler.