new to all grain - having some problems

I got some AG equipment for Christmas and have made two batches so far, but having a few problems. I'm using a round 10G cooler w/false bottom as a mash tun and fly/continuous sparging. I'm using 5.2 stabilizer and sparging for about an hour probably, through a colander to divert the flow a bit.

My first batch I only got about 65% efficiency. I realized after that I had not set the MLT dead space correctly in beersmith, so I was sparging half a gallon or so less than I should have been. I think that was my biggest problem there, and I made up for some of the lost og with some DME in the boil.

So going into my second batch I had that fixed and was hoping for better efficiency. This was a higher og (est 1.085) beer. After sparging my preboil gravity was way low, I think around 1.050 where beersmith estimated 1.072. So I kept sparging all the way up to 8 gallons boil volume. After waiting a couple hours to boil off the excess, I ended up at about 1.080 going into the fermenter.

The wort going into the fermenter smelled exactly like iced tea. It smelled good but not like beer at all. I assume this is tannins from oversparging?

Another problem I'm having is the refractometer seems to be off. On both batches the hydro was higher than the refractometer by about 4 or 5 points in the fermenter. I calibrated it to 0 with distilled water, and double checked that. Any ideas what would cause this?

I realize now that higher gravity beers have lower mash efficiency but what can i reasonably expect to get with my setup?

Thanks.

Congrats on starting AG. 65% is not bad for your first time.

As you brew on your system more you should get a feel for how it works allot better.

SWMBO almost always says the beer tastes like tea when it goes into the fermenter so I wouldn't worry about that. To make sure you don't over sparge check the gravity of the run off. IIRC you should not sparge past 1.008-1.010.

Temp can effect the reading of the hydrometer and refractometer. Some refractometers are ATC, but they still need to be kept at around room temp to work. After the beer ferments the refractometer will be off because of the alcohol.

When I was taught to brew, I was told to never let more than 3.3 qts of water pass through each pound of grain. For example, if the grain bill totaled 10 lbs, the mash plus sparge water should total no more than 33 qts (or 8.25 gallons). This was to ensure tannins were not extracted. This is a very simple way to try to avoid tannins and I understand now there other ways to avoid it, mainly pH level. Also, I now routinely batch sparge and use up to 4 qts/lb of grain, depending on the recipe and total pre-boil volume needed.

What ratio are you using to mash with and then sparge?

As far as the refractometer and hydrometer... remember, both are temperature dependent. Does your refractometer have ATC? Are you correcting for temperature with the hydrometer? Many people will tell you that a hydrometer is ultimately more accurate - not sure if I've made up my mind yet.

One last note - try a batch sparge and see what kind of eff you get. It might surprise you. There was a good article in Zymurgy by Denny about sparging techniques the issue before last.

Where are you getting your grains from and what's the crush look like? That's where I'd start.

I'm using 5.2 stabilizer

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I use mine as a paper weight. I ran into consistency problems at the same time I started using that stuff. Not sure if that ended up being my problem but I haven't had any more issues after I stopped using it. Maybe it works for some people but it didn't work for me.

I was going to give it away in the Pass It On thread but I didn't want to do that to someone else.

BendBrewer said:

I use mine as a paper weight. I ran into consistency problems at the same time I started using that stuff. Not sure if that ended up being my problem but I haven't had any more issues after I stopped using it. Maybe it works for some people but it didn't work for me.

I was going to give it away in the Pass It On thread but I didn't want to do that to someone else.

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Ditto...I found the stuff useless for me.

For the refractometer, give it like 5-10 minutes to sit at room temp before taking your measurement. And ensure there are no airbubbles or debris on the glass. I had similar issues as you. Did the above and now it's as accurate as my hydrometer.

I'm another one that found the 5.2 worthless.

Good advice regarding the refractometer, Man. I also agree with BobbyM. The crush of your grain is a big part of getting better efficiency.

Bobby_M said:

Where are you getting your grains from and what's the crush look like? That's where I'd start.

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Both batches I got the grains from LHBS and ran them through their mill. In the future i'll probably mostly order crushed grains online just because they are so much cheaper than what my LHBS charges.

BendBrewer said:

I use mine as a paper weight. I ran into consistency problems at the same time I started using that stuff. Not sure if that ended up being my problem but I haven't had any more issues after I stopped using it. Maybe it works for some people but it didn't work for me.

I was going to give it away in the Pass It On thread but I didn't want to do that to someone else.

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Interesting... So should I be concerned about the PH of my mash water at all? I'm just using city tap water treated with campden for chloramines, which has seemed to work ok for extract/partial mashes.

Grizzlybrew said:

When I was taught to brew, I was told to never let more than 3.3 qts of water pass through each pound of grain. For example, if the grain bill totaled 10 lbs, the mash plus sparge water should total no more than 33 qts (or 8.25 gallons). This was to ensure tannins were not extracted. This is a very simple way to try to avoid tannins and I understand now there other ways to avoid it, mainly pH level. Also, I now routinely batch sparge and use up to 4 qts/lb of grain, depending on the recipe and total pre-boil volume needed.

What ratio are you using to mash with and then sparge?

As far as the refractometer and hydrometer... remember, both are temperature dependent. Does your refractometer have ATC? Are you correcting for temperature with the hydrometer? Many people will tell you that a hydrometer is ultimately more accurate - not sure if I've made up my mind yet.

One last note - try a batch sparge and see what kind of eff you get. It might surprise you. There was a good article in Zymurgy by Denny about sparging techniques the issue before last.

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I agree with trying a batch sparge. I use a similar set up as you, and I got a huge efficiency boost when I started batch sparging. I usually do 2 batches (first runnings, sparge 1, sparge 2) and I sparge with water ~185 deg, which brings the grain bed up to ~168. Give it a shot!

mleary said:

Interesting... So should I be concerned about the PH of my mash water at all? I'm just using city tap water treated with campden for chloramines, which has seemed to work ok for extract/partial mashes.

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Yes and no.

Yes: In the long run you'll be making sure that you're not extracting tannins with an increased pH.

No: As long as you're getting the chloramines out of your water, you're doing the right thing and will get good enough results. You've got enough to worry about just getting your process down, and pH isn't going to make or break your beer if you're using tap water.

Some good ideas above, I would check my thermometer for calibration also. Sounds like your strike temp may be low. Let your strike water set in cooler about 10 min and check again (preheat your cooler) adjust and then add grain.

mleary said:

Interesting... So should I be concerned about the PH of my mash water at all? I'm just using city tap water treated with campden for chloramines, which has seemed to work ok for extract/partial mashes.

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I think that some people have problems when they use very alkaline or hard water to mash with. If you are worried about it you can get some pH strips and check your pH 5-10 minutes after strike. If your pH is above 5.5 then you might need to worry about pH stabilizer. That being said, I have brewed in several cities and never had any pH problem.

Grizzlybrew said:

What ratio are you using to mash with and then sparge?

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I was just using whatever beersmith told me for a single infusion, no mash out. I'm at work now so dont have the exact numbers, but I think it was about 1.3 quarts to pound. Now for my high gravity brew, beer smith had me sparging with less water than I mashed with. From what i've read you typically use more water to sparge, but I think beer smith calculated it this way to give me the correct boil volume.

Is it ok to oversparge and then boil off to increase efficiency as long as you dont go under 1.012ish?

I also received an AG kit for Christmas. So far I only brewed one AG kit from MoreBeer. I only got 55% efficiency from the process so I am a little envious of the 65% right now. The AG included two 10 G coolers and a fly sparge setup. In my setup, I had 13.5 lbs grains that were mashed at a ratio of 1.5 qts/lb at 153F for 60 min. The pre-boil gravity was 1.042 for 6.5 gallons and ended with a post-boil gravity of 1.052. The expected was 1.057-1.060. Based on reading this forum, I have some ideas to try next time. One is switching to batch sparging. The other is to account for heat loss during the transfer by heating the sparge water to a higher temp (~180-185F). I think this was an error I made last time because I don't believe the grain made it up to ~170F. Another possibility is to use the pH stabilizer from StarSan. I calculated my mash pH last night and it was ~6 or so. That's about all the things I can of think of right now that may have caused my low efficiency.

sjbeerman said:

I also received an AG kit for Christmas. So far I only brewed one AG kit from MoreBeer. I only got 55% efficiency from the process so I am a little envious of the 65% right now. The AG included two 10 G coolers and a fly sparge setup. In my setup, I had 13.5 lbs grains that were mashed at a ratio of 1.5 qts/lb at 153F for 60 min. The pre-boil gravity was 1.042 for 6.5 gallons and ended with a post-boil gravity of 1.052. The expected was 1.057-1.060. Based on reading this forum, I have some ideas to try next time. One is switching to batch sparging. The other is to account for heat loss during the transfer by heating the sparge water to a higher temp (~180-185F). I think this was an error I made last time because I don't believe the grain made it up to ~170F. Another possibility is to use the pH stabilizer from StarSan. I calculated my mash pH last night and it was ~6 or so. That's about all the things I can of think of right now that may have caused my low efficiency.

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I have found that the only time I get a really low efficiency, like 55%, is when I have a really poor grain crush. A good grain crush is essential.

mleary said:

I was just using whatever beersmith told me for a single infusion, no mash out. I'm at work now so dont have the exact numbers, but I think it was about 1.3 quarts to pound. Now for my high gravity brew, beer smith had me sparging with less water than I mashed with. From what i've read you typically use more water to sparge, but I think beer smith calculated it this way to give me the correct boil volume.

Is it ok to oversparge and then boil off to increase efficiency as long as you dont go under 1.012ish?

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That's usually the plan, but you can go a little lower with your runnings to around 1.008 or 1.010.

sjbeerman said:

I also received an AG kit for Christmas. So far I only brewed one AG kit from MoreBeer. I only got 55% efficiency from the process so I am a little envious of the 65% right now. The AG included two 10 G coolers and a fly sparge setup. In my setup, I had 13.5 lbs grains that were mashed at a ratio of 1.5 qts/lb at 153F for 60 min. The pre-boil gravity was 1.042 for 6.5 gallons and ended with a post-boil gravity of 1.052. The expected was 1.057-1.060. Based on reading this forum, I have some ideas to try next time. One is switching to batch sparging. The other is to account for heat loss during the transfer by heating the sparge water to a higher temp (~180-185F). I think this was an error I made last time because I don't believe the grain made it up to ~170F. Another possibility is to use the pH stabilizer from StarSan. I calculated my mash pH last night and it was ~6 or so. That's about all the things I can of think of right now that may have caused my low efficiency.

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You calculated your pH? I don't think that's something you can calculate unless you are doing a titration. If you are worried about pH, get some pH strips and do a quick experiment. Take about 1/4 lb of crushed grain and put it in a quart of water at 110 F, wait 10-15 minutes and check the pH. If it's not 5.0-5.5 you have a pH problem. Correct this with pH stabilizer, acidulated malt, or an extended acid rest. If your pH is ok you probably will want to check your crush.

mleary said:

Interesting... So should I be concerned about the PH of my mash water at all?

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Another reason to do batch sparges. When you continually rinse the grains through fly sparging, you continually dilute and lower the pH level. Batch sparging does not affect the grain bed in exactly the same way. You are more likely to have an appropriate(i.g. safe) pH on a 2nd or 3rd batch sparge than near the end of a fly sparge, especially when over sparging.

Also, pH is a bigger concern in your lighter brews. Darker malts often help boost pH levels. Not sure if you have a tendency to brew light or dark beers.

Ray Daniels gives a formula for calculating the mash pH in his book using your tap water. It's mainly based on the total alkalinity, calcium concentration, and magnesium concentration. Of course, measuring is the best thing to do but you would need a pH meter for accuracy. pH strips only give you an estimatation, which is perhaps good enough for most people.

I batch sparge in a square cooler with a bazooka screen. It's hard to stir well in a round cooler (too deep). I get 75-80% eff. consistently. What really helped my efficiency was to use 180-185 deg. water for the 1st round batch sparge and let the mash sit for 10 mins before draining. Fly sparging is a huge PIA and takes a lot more time. A lot more room for error as well. I use city water and have NEVER checked PH. I used to use campden for cloramines but could not taste a difference so stopped using them.