High Gravity Yeast selection

I am brewing a high gravity Pumpkin Ale for next fall. The estimated O.G. is 1.12. I am looking at a Wyeast 1388 Belgian Strong Ale yeast. I have not attempted a high gravity beer before and would appreciate some recommendations on the yeast strain. Would this work and/or should I use two packets?

Thanks for your help.

That strain should be able to handle the alcohol level, but without a starter you'd want to use at least three packs - ideally five.

what is the OG? Why not just make a starter?

Never done a yeast starter before, and researching it, seems you can make a simple task very complicated. So, assuming we dumb it down for me, it seems I just want to dissolve 1/2 cup DME in 2 cups water and boil for about 10 min and then cool it down to pitching temps. Pitch the yeast and put it in a sanitized container. I am assuming something as simple as a sanitized coke bottle could work. Swirl it whenever I walk by and in about 48 hours get to brewing.

This should allow me to get away with just one pack of the begian strong yeast. Oversimplified?

You have the process down, but for a beer of this gravity, using a single pack, you'd want to use about 600 g of DME (1.3 lb) and 6 L (1.6 gal) of water.

Edit: With two packs, you could do a 2.5 L starter, assuming you shake it frequently and don't use an airlock.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Thank you very much for your replies.

First, with the volume of water you recommend for a starter, I want to factor that into the total water added to bring it up to 5 gallons, correct? Now that I apply common sense, that would be 6.5gal in a 6.5 gal carboy, so I think I answered my own question.

To add another option, after reading, it seems it would be easier just to pitch 2 packs of dry nottingham yeast (or something of the like) and be done with it. Easier and cheaper. Disagree?

sfrisby said:

Thank you very much for your replies.

First, with the volume of water you recommend for a starter, I want to factor that into the total water added to bring it up to 5 gallons, correct? Now that I apply common sense, that would be 6.5gal in a 6.5 gal carboy, so I think I answered my own question.

To add another option, after reading, it seems it would be easier just to pitch 2 packs of dry nottingham yeast (or something of the like) and be done with it. Easier and cheaper. Disagree?

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Nottingham's good, but won't give you belgian character. Starters are easy, and if you start it a few days ahead of time, the yeast will reproduce, eat, and settle into a cake at the bottom of the container. Then, you can carefully decant most of the liquid off and pitch a slurry from the bottom of the container. This is what I do, and it works great. If you want Belgian character, the expense and time invested in this brew make the extra cost of yeast and a starter seem pretty worthwhile, to me- make the beer you want.
Also, be sure to mash low and add some simple sugars to get the attenuation up where you want it.

Ok. I checked out that Mr. Malty calculator, pretty cool. Thats getting bookmarked.
I wasn't focused on the belgian character, just seemed something of the like was needed in a wort that high. Let me share what the overall plan is, since when I get fired up and start talking about it to my buddies, they just roll their eyes and say something along the lines of "great, just tell me when its ready to drink." Maybe you all can appreciate it more. : )

Ever had the Heavy Seas GreatER Pumpkin? Pumpkin Ale aged in bourbon barrels? Thats what I am going for.

12LB Amber LME
2LB Light DME
2LB 40L Crystal
1LB Munich
2 oz. Mt. Hood for 60 min
1 oz. EKG for 20 min.
2 29oz cans Libbys canned pumpkin for 20 min.
Yeast to be determined

Grains and extract chosen to give more of a orange/copper color. Its a pumpkin beer after all.

I currently have some Makers marinating with vanilla beans, cinnimon sticks, fresh nutmeg and whole allspice. 2 cups with 2 oz. medium oak chips in the secondary, along with new cinn sticks, nutmeg, vanilla bean, and whole allspice. This will be the first attempt to not add the spices to the boil to see if more of the flavor comes through when not added until the secondary. For this purpose, no aroma hops to mask the spice aroma.

The plan is to sit in the primary for a month, the secondary for a month, and then 7 months bottle conditioning to start drinking in October. I am hoping if the 12%abv is reached, it should be good for at least a couple years in the bottle.

Only other thing I have read is with a higher O.G, where my usual M.O. is to mash for 30 min, I should mash closer to 60 min for more fermentables.

Thanks. I appreciate being able to bounce ideas off everyone.

sfrisby said:

I wasn't focused on the belgian character, just seemed something of the like was needed in a wort that high.

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You're looking at roughly an 11-13% ABV beer. At that level, yeast strain selection isn't all that important, but how the yeast is treated is. You need a lot of yeast, and you need it to be healthy.

I'll throw out a couple thoughts on the recipe; take them or leave them.

• I'd replace the amber extract with the lightest you can find. Getting the kind of attenuation you want/need out of an extract beer this big is going to be challenging.

• 2 lb of crystal malt is quite a bit. Remember that most "light" extracts are something like 5-10% light crystal already.

• 1 lb of Munich may not be enough to convert a 3 lb mini-mash. I'd add either more Munich, or some 2-row or pale malt.

Whoa whoa - if you're just selecting this yeast because you read "12-13%ABV" then you should really reevaluate your decision. You undoubtedly will get some spicy Belgian flavors with this strain - probably a little clovey and some fruitiness. I think these would be great in a Pumpkin ale, but only if you planned for it.

I made the mistake of brewing an American barleywine once, and because I wanted a high ABV, I used Wyeast 1762 - Abbey Ale 2. This was early in my brewing days, and needless to say I did not expect the belgian flavors - completely different from what I wanted.

There are plenty of other more neutral yeasts you can ferment that high with.

Kansimonson-then what would you recommend that would offer a more neutral flavor?

a10d2-

Let me ask you a few questions to better understand your reasoning for your recommendations so to do better to formulate a recipe next time....

You said to go lighter than amber for the LME. The lighter the extract, the greater the attenuation?

Why is 2lb of crystal too much? What is it bringing to the table that will overpower or hurt the brew?

1lb Munich is not enough to convert 3 lb mash. Apparantly this is a science piece that I don't know. Why is the crystal not contributing to the 3lb mash and only the Munich is? You said more munich, 2 row, or pale. What do these do that the crystal doesn't?

Thanks for the clarification. I know this will help give me a better understanding for next time.

I'd agree that the Belgian yeast is the wrong way to go. The belgian flavors can be nice, but they'll be very present in a beer this big, and IMO they'll clash with the spices and whiskey flavors you want. If you're ordering online and have access to White Labs yeast, I've used the High Gravity Ale yeast many times and have always been happy with the results.

Concerning the recipe, I'd also agree that light DME is the way to go, and that 2lb of crystal is a bit excessive. Keep in mind that if you can't achieve a high level of attenuation with a beer of this OG, it's easy for it to become cloyingly sweet. 2lb of Crystal is going to leave a lot of unfermentable sugar for any beer, let alone a beer this size. If you want a darker color, go for a max of 1lb crystal 80 or 120.

If you look at recipes for big belgian beers, and often for barleywines or huge RIS's, you'll see that they'll include a healthy dose of sugar (10% or more), to help dry the beer out. You won't get a "dry" beer with that huge OG, but you'll want to use some simple sugar (corn sugar, likely) to make your wort more fermentable, especially with an extract brew where you can't manipulate mash temperatures to increase fermentability and avoid brewing a cloyingly sweet beer.

sfrisby said:

You said to go lighter than amber for the LME. The lighter the extract, the greater the attenuation?

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Generally, yes. There will be some variations from brand to brand, but the "extra light" or "pilsner" extract will always be the most fermentable. Even then, a beer that almost all extract is rarely going to exceed 80% ADF, and for this recipe that would put you at 1.024, which is still probably too sweet. Elkdog's suggestion of using about 10% simple sugar (corn or table sugar) is a good one.

sfrisby said:

Why is 2lb of crystal too much? What is it bringing to the table that will overpower or hurt the brew?

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Crystal malts contribute some unfermentable sugars, so they'll raise your FG, but they also have distinct flavors (for 40L, mostly caramel and toffee-like) that work well in small amounts but can get distracting at higher concentrations. One thing I like to do to combat that is to use a smaller overall amount, but "layer" different crystal malts for depth of flavor. In a big beer like this, for example, I might use 5% C40, 2% C80, and 1% C120. That's really a judgement call - I don't think anything can tell you what you'll get out of various combos other than your own experiences and preferences.

sfrisby said:

1lb Munich is not enough to convert 3 lb mash. Apparantly this is a science piece that I don't know. Why is the crystal not contributing to the 3lb mash and only the Munich is?

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Enzymes. If you look at an analysis for pale base malts, they're almost always >100 degrees Lintner. The rule of thumb is that you need a weighted average of 30°L in order to have conversion. 50°L is better. So for one pound of malt to convert itself, plus an additional two pounds, its DP would have to be about 150°L. Only very pale base malts get there; Munich (depending on the maltster) can be as low as maybe 60-80. So basically, if the Munich is the only base malt in the mash, you'd want it to be at least half of the grain bill. So if you drop the crystal somewhat, to say 1.5 lb, and up the Munich to 2 lb, you should have no problems with conversion, while only increasing your grist by 0.5 lb. Hopefully your mash tun is big enough that won't be a problem.

Hope that helps.

Sean

Guys-thank you for all the explanations. I have been brewing for awhile, but this brew is so far beyond the basic, mash some grains, throw in some LME and hopps. Boil and pitch some yeast and wait a month. There has been much more science involved that I havent' had to deal with before. I am very appreciative of the explanations and would like to know if any of you know a good book that could further explain the science aspect of homebrewing. I would love to have a better foundation for the next time I choose to do a more complicated brew such as this. I have been brewing for a number of years but have been limited to extract/partial mash due to living in a condo and not having the room for all grain equipment.

Thanks.

New Brewing Lager Beer is a very good resource for the sciencey stuff.

a10t2 said:

Enzymes. If you look at an analysis for pale base malts, they're almost always >100 degrees Lintner. The rule of thumb is that you need a weighted average of 30°L in order to have conversion. 50°L is better. So for one pound of malt to convert itself, plus an additional two pounds, its DP would have to be about 150°L. Only very pale base malts get there; Munich (depending on the maltster) can be as low as maybe 60-80. So basically, if the Munich is the only base malt in the mash, you'd want it to be at least half of the grain bill. So if you drop the crystal somewhat, to say 1.5 lb, and up the Munich to 2 lb, you should have no problems with conversion, while only increasing your grist by 0.5 lb. Hopefully your mash tun is big enough that won't be a problem.

Hope that helps.

Sean

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a10t2: i don't understand this, but i feel like i really need to so that i can brew better. is there s wiki or deeper explanation of this that i can learn from?

Kevin

I'd recommend "Principles of Brewing Science" by Dr. Fix first. "New Brewing Lager Beer" is good too. "Designing Great Beers" has a pretty good balance of technical info and recipe design suggestions.

BrewMoreBeers said:

a10t2: i don't understand this, but i feel like i really need to so that i can brew better. is there s wiki or deeper explanation of this that i can learn from?

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This seems like a pretty good summary.

There are DP values given for most malts in their HBT wiki entries.

The best thing to do is get the analysis from your particular maltster.

That is all great stuff. Thanks!

A10t2-I am not saying this to dispute you, but to learn....
Based on your recommendation, and after further reading with the offered links, it seems the Lintner value for Muncih (25) would not bring enough to the table even if I change from 2lb 40L and 1 pound Munich to 1 lb 40L and 2 lbs Munich. It looks like I need to add a pound of Pale malt to the mash to get beyond the tipping point.

Ive enjoyed further wrapping my head around this. I need to go back to my notes to old brews that had a high FG and look at the grain bill to see if that was the problem and I didn't know it. The light bulb is starting to go on boys!

Just found the forum here on the science of brewing. Looks like this will be a great resource.

sfrisby said:

Based on your recommendation, and after further reading with the offered links, it seems the Lintner value for Muncih (25) would not bring enough to the table even if I change from 2lb 40L and 1 pound Munich to 1 lb 40L and 2 lbs Munich. It looks like I need to add a pound of Pale malt to the mash to get beyond the tipping point.

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That's for 20L Munich, so if that's what you're using, you probably would need to add some other, lighter base malt. The HBT article lists light Munich at 72 degrees Lintner though, which would be plenty to convert half its own weight in other grains.

That's why it's always best to get a lot analysis for the grains you're actually using. The Cargill Munich (8.3L) I'm using right now, for example, has a DP of 97, so it could basically be used like any other base malt.

Hmmm. I guess I just don't know. I see where it lists different DP for different type of munichs, but the German Munich I got online at Northern Brewer doesn't specify what type. However, you list the Cargill at 8.3L. The website lists the German Munich I ordered (not dark) at 8.3L and I didn't know what that meant. If that directly ties to DP then based on your info on Cargill, I should be ok. But based on earlier comments, I may still add 1lb corn sugar just to be safe.

sfrisby said:

However, you list the Cargill at 8.3L. The website lists the German Munich I ordered (not dark) at 8.3L and I didn't know what that meant. If that directly ties to DP then based on your info on Cargill, I should be ok. But based on earlier comments, I may still add 1lb corn sugar just to be safe.

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The malt specs can definitely be confusing. There's DP, which is measured in degrees Lintner (*L), and there's color, which is typically given in SRM for beer and in Lovibond (L) for grains - the two units are exactly equal. When communicating online, I think a lot of people forgot or can't type the degree symbol - I'm on my iPhone now, for example. Generally, the lighter the malt, the higher the DP. Light Munich, which is usually around 6-8 L/SRM, will always have enough diastatic power (>50 *L) to convert itself, and generally a reasonable amount of other grains as well.

You lost me with the corn sugar, though. That doesn't need to go in the mash at all.

a10t2 said:

The malt specs can definitely be confusing. There's DP, which is measured in degrees Lintner (*L), and there's color, which is typically given in SRM for beer and in Lovibond (L) for grains - the two units are exactly equal. When communicating online, I think a lot of people forgot or can't type the degree symbol - I'm on my iPhone now, for example. Generally, the lighter the malt, the higher the DP. Light Munich, which is usually around 6-8 L/SRM, will always have enough diastatic power (>50 *L) to convert itself, and generally a reasonable amount of other grains as well.

You lost me with the corn sugar, though. That doesn't need to go in the mash at all.

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That is really my fault. I have allowed this thread to cover 45 different topics. The thread started on the best yeast for an O.G. of about 1.12. Once I outlined what is going in the brew, it was suggested that the FG would be about 1.035ish. To keep it from being to sweet, it was suggested to add some corn sugar to help bring down the FG.

a10t2 said:

You have the process down, but for a beer of this gravity, using a single pack, you'd want to use about 600 g of DME (1.3 lb) and 6 L (1.6 gal) of water.

Edit: With two packs, you could do a 2.5 L starter, assuming you shake it frequently and don't use an airlock.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

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With 2 packs and more water, would there Ned to be more dme?