Hmm, I wonder if I still have my 68HC705 prototyping board. I bet I could build a pretty nice brewery controller with that.
Arduino instead of BCS or Brewtroller
- Thread starter OEHokie
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The Atmel chips are great for what they are used for in the brew controllers, simple on/off and timed control. It is when you try to go beyond that is when the limits of the Atmel's becomes the problem. For folks that just want plain and simple the Brewtroller is the ticket, but when you enter the realm of touch screen interface and higher level application control program, the Atmel series was never meant for that.
I have an application that operates a complex automated brewing system and had spent some time looking for ways to interface 4-20 MA sensors, 100 ohm RTD's, type J thermocouples, and provide 0-5 and 0-10 volt outputs. It was quickly obvious that Atmel chips were not enough, so I went with old RS 422 interface Opto 22 hardware and wrote an app in Java to make it function, then recreated the app in C#.
I have an application that operates a complex automated brewing system and had spent some time looking for ways to interface 4-20 MA sensors, 100 ohm RTD's, type J thermocouples, and provide 0-5 and 0-10 volt outputs. It was quickly obvious that Atmel chips were not enough, so I went with old RS 422 interface Opto 22 hardware and wrote an app in Java to make it function, then recreated the app in C#.
How did you interface the 100 ohm RTDs? I see there is a module called SNAP-AIRTD for opto 22 that will work but it's quite pricey.
I'd like to thank everyone who has mentioned Arduino on this board. I went from playing a small bit with 1-wire devices, to looking at Arduino, and I'm geeked! The introduction I am reading has me excited, not so much for using it for brewing, but as an way to start understanding microcontrollers, and it can certainly be fun and useful to boot.
I think my kid will be able to start building and programming on this, and if she does nothing else, it's a nice level of understanding of electronics and programming that she can have fun with too.
I think my kid will be able to start building and programming on this, and if she does nothing else, it's a nice level of understanding of electronics and programming that she can have fun with too.
Dude, we're brewing beer not robots. What else do you need? A base arduino can sense a multitude of temps on a single pin using one-wire probes, stick a lcd on another pin, couple o' switches, and a few SSR's, and you have a full electric brewery. Yank the lcd out and shoot the serial to your pc instead then you can code yourself an entire ui fairly easily if you half know what you're doing.
I currently have a dual stage temp controller that uses an arduino. There is a hand controller build from a 2x16 lcd, a pot, and a PS2 joystick. I can set each "stage" to heat or cool depending on ambient temperature or if I'm using it for my eHLT. The hand controller can come off the brew rig and stick directly on a telescope mount that I strapped cnc stepper motors to and point at whatever I want it to point at. All with an arduino and maybe a couple hundred lines of code.
Seriously with some clever circuitry and a decent coding hand you can do just about anything with an arduino/netduino/fez panda. Personally I prefer huffing solder fumes over using something someone else built, but that's just me.
For the simple brewing systems the Atmel platform is sufficient, for my needs it was not even a contender. When you need to have analog outputs for proportional flow control, deal with, industry standard sensors, RTD's, thermocouples, and over 60 control points, the Atmel just is not enough.
I went with Opto 22 G1 hardware and an application that was manual control at first, then grew to include all of the other features I wanted. Now it lets me do what I want, integrated recipe development with complete process control that takes malt from the hopper to the fermenter without manual assistance, and control 6 fermenters with individual programs.
I guess to each their own, if the Atmel is your choice, build the system you are capable of and be happy with it.
I went with Opto 22 G1 hardware and an application that was manual control at first, then grew to include all of the other features I wanted. Now it lets me do what I want, integrated recipe development with complete process control that takes malt from the hopper to the fermenter without manual assistance, and control 6 fermenters with individual programs.
I guess to each their own, if the Atmel is your choice, build the system you are capable of and be happy with it.
OP
OP
OEHokie
Well-Known Member
Speak for yourself... I want my brewery to have the ability to take over the world. haha. Hmm... I was looking for a brewery name... maybe it should be skynet brewery. Haha
Got my arduino yesterday, going to start messing with it as soon as I figure out the new brewstand.
Either we're not talking about home brewing anymore or KISS has flown out the window.
I'm usually one to tech the crap out of anything I do but I don't know, brewing is something I like to do manually. I do regulate the temp of my hlt with an arduino and it'll eventually regulate my boil once I turn that electric, but I feel like automating the whole thing is cheating or something. It's about the intimacy. I like to get it on with my wort if you know what I mean.
I was thinking earlier today that I think I could build a decent temperature controller out of a PROM, an oscillator, and a few 74-series logic ICs. Now, whether I could get those things for less than the cost of a microcontroller is another story. I am pretty sure I could, but haven't really priced it out.
I started out with a 7.5 gallon enamel ware pot, 5 gallon gott cooler with screen wire tube, and a 5 gallon plastic bucket for sparge water. Made some competition winning beers with that lash up, but was not thrilled lifting 4 gallons of 180 degree water over my head to set on the top of a unistrut stand. Moved up to the first flash boiler/steam RIMS system with 10 gallon mash tun and 15 gallon SS pot over home made burner. Made some competition winning beers with that lash up for a couple years. Then while on the first long road trip in Arizona, I designed the automated system and began purchasing the components. Finally was home long enough in 2008 to have the brew shed built, fabricate and wire the system, and have my son build a Java application for manual control and teach me enough SQL programming that I was able to continue to learn Java programming and expand the application and needed tables. After reaching a point where the application was large enough that the graphic screens for touch control became a problem in Java, I rebuilt the application in C# and added additional features like water chemistry and mash PH calculation. With plenty of time to spend designing and programming to burn down time, it has been interesting to see what I can add to the application and brew system.
OP
OP
OEHokie
Well-Known Member
Whew. Sounds like a pretty crazy awesome system. Pics?
+1 to spintab's post above. People think arduino is a low level board, but it is in fact very powerful. If you know how to build circuits you can interface pretty much any sensor to it. If you know how to pull the data off the serial bus you can do all kinds of GUI mods and massage it with any language you want.
Yeah don't take anything I've said as discrediting this system. It's incredible. C# is really the way to go with any GUI too. We use a lot of WPF at work and it makes for a killer GUI. You may want to look into it. While I like brewing manually, fermentation is a whole other story. I've wanted to code a GUI that could monitor wort temps and intelligently account for heat from yeast activity. I kinda have to babysit my chest freezer as it is. Helps I work from home about 20ft away from the fermenter.
As far as the Arduino, I actually own a FEZ Panda as well. Basically the same thing with bunch more digital I/O's and it's the .NET Micro Framework so c# is the typical language to use. I really like it. It's in my telescope mount right now but all this tech talk makes me want to stick it in the brew "box".
nukinfuts29
Well-Known Member
I have never been a big fan of writing in c#, but I took to c++ easier so that is probably why.
Sent from my Galaxy S 4G using Home Brew Talk for Android
Sent from my Galaxy S 4G using Home Brew Talk for Android
Here is a link to an older pic of the system https://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/Panels#5339967138764297570, I dropped the water storage tank in the back of the brew system.
And here is my attempt at GUI's for run time information https://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/OneTouchProgramGraphics, even these are out of date as PID tune, manual control, and hardware are modified now.
I do process instrumentation for a career and acquired the programming skills I needed to make it this far.
And here is my attempt at GUI's for run time information https://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/OneTouchProgramGraphics, even these are out of date as PID tune, manual control, and hardware are modified now.
I do process instrumentation for a career and acquired the programming skills I needed to make it this far.
Has anyone considered that at a certain point, you are not brewing anymore? Not to say this is a bad thing. In fact, when the Feds come and shut you down for brewing over your limit, you can just blame the equipment!
"I didn't do it!"
"I didn't do it!"
pinback
Well-Known Member
this thought has run through my mind many a time when I see all the electronics that are tied into brewing for many people.
the only thing i can say is, if it helps you control your process even more, then i can see the need.
additionally, i really enjoy messing around with electronics as even a secondary hobby, so if you look at it like combining two hobbies, then I see the appeal.
cobolstinks
Well-Known Member
'I have never been a big fan of writing in c#, but I took to c++ easier so that is probably why.'
well if you like C++ why not just use COBOL?
well if you like C++ why not just use COBOL?
As far as I can tell there is nothing between the Brewtroller & BCS 460 and a full blown PLC control system for home brewers, and no integrated brewing control applications, kind of like a bicycle versus a car with nothing in between.
'I have never been a big fan of writing in c#, but I took to c++ easier so that is probably why.'
well if you like C++ why not just use COBOL?
LOL!!
*Fondly remember days in college programming COBOL on an AS/400.
We all get it now that you have quite the affinity for industrial control, but to compare a BCS or BrewTroller as being a bicycle and PLC being a car is really insulting to what both those groups are doing. While those systems do not have the full flexibility of a PLC, they are both very capable system.
To use your analogy, I might do something like this:
bicycle = manual brewing
motorcycle = Johnson/Other (single task) PID controls
car = BCS / BrewTroller
luxury car = PLC
As we all know, luxury cars have more bells and whistles, but that always comes with lots of added expenses.
wolfman_48442
Well-Known Member
Speak for yourself. I think the comparison was apt.
I also know that I've probably learned more from kladue's posts than maybe any other poster on this board, and I always enjoy reading about what he's up to.
nukinfuts29
Well-Known Member
cobolstinks said:'I have never been a big fan of writing in c#, but I took to c++ easier so that is probably why.'
well if you like C++ why not just use COBOL?
Lmao there's more of us nerds here then I would have expected.
Sent from my Galaxy S 4G using Home Brew Talk for Android
I still stand by the comparisons
Walking - Manual brewing
Roller skates - PID control
Bicycle - BCS & Brew troller - PID control, timing, raw level measurement, limited range of input and outputs.
Motorcycle - touch screen interface, PID, compensated level measurement, thermocouple temp sensors, analog output, multiple PWM output, and additional high level features with easy expansion.
Car - PLC which accepts industry standard sensors and both digital and industry standard analog outputs and ladder logic control program.
Luxury Car - PLC hardware with touch screen application that integrates recipe with control and data storage
Walking - Manual brewing
Roller skates - PID control
Bicycle - BCS & Brew troller - PID control, timing, raw level measurement, limited range of input and outputs.
Motorcycle - touch screen interface, PID, compensated level measurement, thermocouple temp sensors, analog output, multiple PWM output, and additional high level features with easy expansion.
Car - PLC which accepts industry standard sensors and both digital and industry standard analog outputs and ladder logic control program.
Luxury Car - PLC hardware with touch screen application that integrates recipe with control and data storage
I haven't owned a car in years. It's the best decision I ever made.
wyoder
Well-Known Member
Hello fellow Hokie!
I've read through this thread and it seems that opinions are varied as to what type of hardware is adequate for your brewing needs. I wanted to encourage you and point out that with your specific needs it seems that an Arduino compatible board is more than adequate. Have you had a chance to play with it yet?
I'm doing something very similar; 3 kettles, 2 heating elements, 2 pumps, and 3 timer/counters. No solenoids yet...
The way I approached the user interface was to build a webpage that shows all the pertinent information in a somewhat graphical form and allows for all the necessary control. The real time data is served from the Arduino over ethernet. This webpage is intended to be used on a docked iPad, but could be used on any computer/smart phone connected to the local network if you're temporarily not in the same room as the brew equipment. The webpage also logs the temperature data for plotting. (In case you care: UI is done with jquery ui and the plotting with Flot)
This is all work in anticipation of getting all of my new equipment in the coming months.... but I'm happy to report that the Arduino+Web control system is working very well. My total time commitment was maybe 20-30 hours of web design and 10 hours of Arduino sketching.
As most of the other posters have indicated, I think you should have some form of backup control, even if it's just an emergency stop. Good luck, let us know how it goes.
cobolstinks
Well-Known Member
got my netdunio the other day, wired up 4 lm35 temp sensors, wrote some basic C# for it. My 4 sensors are posting temps within 1 degree F of each other so im pretty happy. Ill make a thread when the rest of the project materializes but heres what I plan to do:
4 LM35 sensors (1BK, 1MT,1HLT, 1 post chiller)
build a page uses ajax,jquery,flot to send json requests to my netduino
have netduino serve the json requests, read sensors and post json back
have thresholds for SMS messages and tweets (when MT temp is too high)
I don't want a 'luxury car' I drive a tundra not a BMW
Here is my google code project (not much right now)
brewduino - This project is a DotNet MicroFramework project that will read temperature sensors for homebrewing - Google Project Hosting
4 LM35 sensors (1BK, 1MT,1HLT, 1 post chiller)
build a page uses ajax,jquery,flot to send json requests to my netduino
have netduino serve the json requests, read sensors and post json back
have thresholds for SMS messages and tweets (when MT temp is too high)
I don't want a 'luxury car' I drive a tundra not a BMW
Here is my google code project (not much right now)
brewduino - This project is a DotNet MicroFramework project that will read temperature sensors for homebrewing - Google Project Hosting
Code:
val1 = aI0.Read();
val2 = aI1.Read();
val3 = aI2.Read();
val4 = aI3.Read();"val1 = ai0" hurts my brain. Just pick a starting index and stick with it.
cobolstinks
Well-Known Member
good point, (im not going for job security here am i... ) Can you please create an issue with the details in the google code project? Or better yet submit a revision to the project and I'll review it (jk).
) Can you please create an issue with the details in the google code project? Or better yet submit a revision to the project and I'll review it (jk).
I'll be honest, I'm not familiar with google code. Is it using SVN? I'd be happy to commit some code revisions although since I don't actually own a netduino you'll have to test them for me
EDIT: nevermind I see part of the URL is "svn" so I guess I can just check out and commit straight to that URL.
EDIT: nevermind I see part of the URL is "svn" so I guess I can just check out and commit straight to that URL.
cobolstinks
Well-Known Member
yeah google code gives you a choice of svn, get, or mercuirial. This is svn. I was totally kidding. I have some major updates I need to make (have to make my netduinio serve json data), ill keep a note of the index and clean it up later. Thanks!
sims_l22
Well-Known Member
so correct me if i am wrong. You have your PC attached to your Arduino board. My question is how can this be done with a PC or Laptop and software? I do not want to make science projects and hooking up Pi's and Arduinos and bread boards i want to automate my system and make beer can some one help.
There's obviously two sides to the argument in this thread, but for what you're describing you want, you should look at a pre-build solution like the BCS. There's an online forum, Wiki and product info at www.embeddedcc.com .
RiverSwillBeer
Well-Known Member
Great thread ...... and updates?
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