Vieille harvest dregs

I've been trying to harvest these dregs...
About 2 weeks ago I poured about 6 oz of 1.040 wort right into the bottle after I finished drinking it. Never saw a krausen or any kind of action. Then about 6 days ago I cold crashed for 2 days, and decanted. I tasted the wort and it was very sweet, no other flavors... Then I put 6 new oz of 1.045 wort in... Still no action.
I have been swirling the bottle almost every day.
There is a layer of sediment, what looks just like yeast, at the bottom of the bottle.
Should I give up on this? Does it just have a seriously long lag time?
It was bottled in 2013, batch #7

Michael Tonsmeire and his blog has a list of Sour bottles that you can or can not harvest dregs from. Although I don't see that particular beer listed, you may want to reach out to him or to the brewery and ask for certain.
Here is the link to the blog page http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

You are better off using a very small amount of wort with a lower gravity. 1.020 works better and only about 75-100 ml. Then let that go for several days then add more to build it up.

Here is some good info about growing yeast from bottle dregs from the Bell's website.

http://bellshomebrew.tumblr.com/post/66974707212/how-to-culture-bells-house-yeast-from-a-bottle

TastyAdventure said:

I've been trying to harvest these dregs...
About 2 weeks ago I poured about 6 oz of 1.040 wort right into the bottle after I finished drinking it. Never saw a krausen or any kind of action. Then about 6 days ago I cold crashed for 2 days, and decanted. I tasted the wort and it was very sweet, no other flavors... Then I put 6 new oz of 1.045 wort in... Still no action.
I have been swirling the bottle almost every day.
There is a layer of sediment, what looks just like yeast, at the bottom of the bottle.
Should I give up on this? Does it just have a seriously long lag time?
It was bottled in 2013, batch #7

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here's a possible explanation: you pitched too much wort that was too rich, and then crashed too soon.

as beergolf pointed out, 6 oz (~177 ml) is probably more than you would want to start with.

CS beers are fermented with brett, which can take 6-7 days to really get going. you added about twice as much wort as some recommend, of a higher gravity then the ideal. i bet that the brett just needed a few more days. brett is slow.

what temp are you holding this at? try to keep it in the 70's if you can.

Just give it more time. I have started a culture from a bottle of nightmare on Brett street, and it took 2 weeks to get a decent krausen.

I have had great success stepping up Vieille dregs and have used them across 3-4 five gallon batches. It took me about a week or two to see activity in the bottle. Eventually a little pellicle formed, see picture attached. If memory serves, the pellicle dropped a week after it appeared. I did this with two bottles from their 2013 batch, about a year ago. Starter wort in the bottle is no more then 1.020. That's my standard practice when stepping up in the bottle.

Thanks for all the advice. Do you think it would be too late to decant some of my wort and then water it down some?

BarleyAndVine said:

Michael Tonsmeire and his blog has a list of Sour bottles that you can or can not harvest dregs from. Although I don't see that particular beer listed, you may want to reach out to him or to the brewery and ask for certain.
Here is the link to the blog page http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

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From personal experience, I can tell you that Crooked Stave dregs are very viable. I believe they are all force carbed, so you wont be getting any sacch or wine/champagne yeast in there like most viable commercial brett/sour dregs. As far as I know, ALL Crooked Stave beers should have viable brett/bugs in them.

Like others have said, probably just not enough time. Also, dont expect to see a huge krausen, if at all, especially on such a small scale. I have pitched multiple CS bottles of dregs into a 1 gallon jug of wort and didnt see any airlock or krausen activity, but the final beer turned out great! Just have faith that Chad's beasts are strong and be patient with them. Crooked Stave dregs might be my favorite to work with. O, and the beers arent half bad either.

Cheers and good luck!

TastyAdventure said:

Thanks for all the advice. Do you think it would be too late to decant some of my wort and then water it down some?

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I would think that would hurt more at this point than help. Just be patient, give it another week, and then step up again if you feel the need.

I made a started with surette dregs recently and saw activity within a couple days. It wasn't very aggressive or anything, but a bit of co2 production and a very obvious acidic and fruity brett aroma. I did also get some yeast settling to the bottom so I just swirled it up and let it continue.

I built it up to close to a liter now and have more obvious activity with a pellicle and all.

I cultured some CS dregs this week. Similar experience in that I got no activity for a solid week. I assumed I would end up tossing it but I got some foaming yesterday. Now it gets a frothy head whenever I swirl and it smells fantastic. I guess patience is key.

Anyone ever get a heavy acetobacter smell/taste when building up CS dregs? Do people build up their starters on a stir plate, or without and an airlock?

robotinc said:

Anyone ever get a heavy acetobacter smell/taste when building up CS dregs? Do people build up their starters on a stir plate, or without and an airlock?

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acetobacter makes acetic acid. certain brett, when exposed to a lot of O2, can also create aceto. so if you're building up dregs in a stirplate, aceto can happen. just crash (it can take a while) and decant before pitching.

Finally saw a tiny pellicle on top this morning! Took forever...

There doesn't seem to be a lot of dregs in Crooked Stave bottles, so for people looking to make a starter with it, I suggest making a very small starter to start with, be patient, and don't expect any real krausen on the first starter. At least that was my experience.

Just wanted to loop back here with some more recent info.
I happened to see bottles of Vieille 2014 - batch 13 on the shelf at a local shop, just after responding to this thread. Combined dregs from two bottles on 2/20. No real krausen to speak up. Seeing pellicle formation today (2/27).

Finally showing a pellicle and a massive foamy head when I swirl the bottle! How will I know when I have enough to ferment a 1 gallon batch with this?

TastyAdventure said:

Finally showing a pellicle and a massive foamy head when I swirl the bottle! How will I know when I have enough to ferment a 1 gallon batch with this?

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I would step it up to another small starter to grow it further, give it another two weeks, and you should have more than enough for 1 gallon. Ive just dumped two bottles worth of dregs into 1 gallon before and got a really pronounced CS culture characteristics.

finsfan said:

I would step it up to another small starter to grow it further, give it another two weeks, and you should have more than enough for 1 gallon. Ive just dumped two bottles worth of dregs into 1 gallon before and got a really pronounced CS culture characteristics.

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Nice. No other yeast pitched?

TastyAdventure said:

Nice. No other yeast pitched?

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It had already been fermented. It was an extra gallon of a clean beer I was bottling, so decided to rack the extra gallon and threw some dregs in it. Im currently culturing up CS dregs from four bottles to eventually pitch into 5 gallons along with a Belgian yeast strain.

If I used this as a primary fermentation what would be the timeline? If it's just lacto and Brett, could it be done in a few months?

Also anyone use this in combo with sacc?

tagz said:

If I used this as a primary fermentation what would be the timeline? If it's just lacto and Brett, could it be done in a few months?

Also anyone use this in combo with sacc?

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I'm not sure. I'm thinking 3 months. And I'm pretty sure there's no lacto.

TastyAdventure said:

I'm not sure. I'm thinking 3 months. And I'm pretty sure there's no lacto.

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There is definitely a little lacto in there unless my taste buds can't differentiate ph levels anymore.

I've read that it is a combo of Brett strains that put off some acidity...
I really hope to get an answer from a reliable source but have only seen stuff on forums...

TastyAdventure said:

I've read that it is a combo of Brett strains that put off some acidity...

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i would love to get confirmation on this. i have a culture of brett that i've labeled "CS dregs with lacto". if there isn't actual lacto in there, there sure is something that tastes like it...

Found this on another forum, apparently this guy got an email from the brewery proving me wrong...
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1425667740.349871.jpg

So my question is, how should I treat a 1 gal batch of 1.050 wort pitched with 100% Vieille dregs (Brett and bacteria) built up with a starter?
I've been reading up on 100% Brett beers, but now apparently I have more research/prepping to do...

I'm pretty sure all CS beers that are listed as being "aged in oak foeders/barrels" have all of the bugs = brettanomyces, lactobaccillus, and pediococcus.

From my experience with St. Bretta dregs, I've had a starter get very thick and ropey (sign of pedio)

Another 1 gallon that was pitched with St. Bretta dregs soured in less than a month, and the taste is unmistakable - there's definitely brett and bacteria there. Taste is great btw, also very distinctly CS.

I've also built up Surette dregs, same story. Great and distinctly CS sour in a short timeframe.

I've pitched all of the above along with a sacch yeast for mixed fermentations.

I would suggest pitching an under attenuating English strain, or a Belgian strain that doesn't finish too dry. Maybe wlp550 or wlp565. Pitch dregs or CS starter at the same time. You should get the best results this way, also likely to get more interesting and complex flavors.

Thanks Wes but I really don't want to adulterate the dregs from that delicious Vieille. I'll just build it up enough so there's enough to pitch straight

Been growing up Surrette dregs for the last 2 weeks. Started off nice and ropy with a strong presence of diacetyl.

I stepped up my latest harvest from 2014 Vieillle dregs and pitched into a 3 gallon batch of 9 IBU 1.048 wort on 3/25/15.
Tested it today (4/9/15). It's down to 1.012 and sitting at a pH of 3.46. As with the 2013 batch, 2014 is a monster.

Nice! I will be pitching into 1 gal next weekend. Let us know when you decide to bottle. Seems like it won't be nearly as long as your standard Brett/bacteria beer

I just racked it onto 3 pounds Oregon canned tart cherries and tossed in a chunk of a wine barrel stave. Will let you know how it develops in a few weeks.

Awesome, I am planning to brett half a batch of saison that is fermenting now with INISBC 291. I will rack off a gallon and pitch the dregs of the bottle of vieille my wife bought me and see what happens.

rupert130 said:

Awesome, I am planning to brett half a batch of saison that is fermenting now with INISBC 291. I will rack off a gallon and pitch the dregs of the bottle of vieille my wife bought me and see what happens.

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So I decided to just go for it and pitched the dregs into 3 gallons of beer fermented down to 1.004 SG. If there's pedio in the mix, I doubt there's much for it to chew on. The brett strains should work on the byproducts of the primary fermentation though.

Just to add to this thread, about 2 years ago I put together a Saison yeast blend. It started out as Dupont, Trois, & build up bottle dregs form a bottle of Surette. Over the past 1.5 years, I've been repitching it over and over to see how it evolves. It has always produced a bit of acidity, but recently it has been souring very aggressively. My last saison was down to 3.25 pH in about a month, and absolutely delicious.

I brought a sample to my yeast guy, and he confirmed there was lacto and a lot of pedio present.

Edit: Double post

J343MY said:

Just to add to this thread, about 2 years ago I put together a Saison yeast blend. It started out as Dupont, Trois, & build up bottle dregs form a bottle of Surette. Over the past 1.5 years, I've been repitching it over and over to see how it evolves. It has always produced a bit of acidity, but recently it has been souring very aggressively. My last saison was down to 3.25 pH in about a month, and absolutely delicious.

I brought a sample to my yeast guy, and he confirmed there was lacto and a lot of pedio present.

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How long do you go grain to glass with that blend?

tagz said:

How long do you go grain to glass with that blend?

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I've done anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 months so far. 2 weeks was kegged.

J343MY said:

I've done anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 months so far. 2 weeks was kegged.

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2 weeks??? How? But I thought... Don't these bugs take a long time? Shortest I've heard was 3 months!

TastyAdventure said:

2 weeks??? How? But I thought... Don't these bugs take a long time? Shortest I've heard was 3 months!

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Edit: this is my opinion/thoughts from what ive read but more info on this would be great.

If you have a large healthy pitch up front it will eat through the simple sugars that sacch normally takes care of and then go dormant. It may slowly get through the long chain sugars but if you keg it wont be an issue.