Water ?

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actech

actech

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My tap water sucks. Smells like nightcrawlers and tastes like dirt. So I buy gallon jugs of spring water. Or the 5 gallon jug a wally world. I am only extract brewing so far and looking into filters . Should I worry about any water adjustments using this bottled spring water? Brewing a big ipa? Been reading about water so I starting thinking. That was probably a mistake. Just curious if its anything to worry about untill I get to all grain
 
In general you really only need to start worrying about water chemistry when you start doing all grain, as it mainly affects the mash. If you're brewing extract beers, as long as the water tastes good you should end up with tasty beer as well.

:mug:
 
Spring water means nothing with regards to suitability for brewing. Some spring water would be suitable. Some would not be. It depends on the water source.

If you are brewing with extract all the minerals are in the extract already from the maltser.

Use RO water or Distilled water if it's something you are buying for brewing anyway.

Spring water?? Who knows. The mineral content should be listed on the bottle. If your having to wonder about the minerals seems like a wasted investment.
 
Gavin C said:
If you are brewing with extract all the minerals are in the extract already from the maltser.

Use RO water or Distilled water if it's something you are buying for brewing anyway.
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Nice to know about minerals. I have a residential r/o (2.5 gal) for drinking, but if I drained it a couple days in a row the kids would revolt. I would find my Kuerig filled with that nasty stuff instead of good water. Always read not to use distilled, but its tough to remember your the red headed step child as an extract brewer when it come to rules, recipes, etc. After I pay for 4 in school this year time to save for a bigger pot to at least start biab.
:off:But I must say so far I have only made one beer that I only could choke 4 of the 5 gallons down. (I needed the keg) A single can kit of a cerveza. Not sure what I expected for $16 but damn worse than corona. Was a true to life Clydesdale drinker. Started brewing in March, Stopped "buying " beer in May. Well bmc beer. Just kinda sucks in the armpit of the midwest cant get ahold of any of the beers everyone talks about here. ok too many hb for week night shut up go to bed
 
LOL. No worries. If I mucked around with SWMBO's coffee machine there would be hell to pay for sure.:cross:

I'm no expert, especially when it comes to extract brewing, but essentially all the mineral and pH adjustments are taken care of prior to you buying the extract in dry or liquid form. Probably done to an excellent standard by the pro maltsers. Using RO or distilled will let their work shine in your beer.

I see the spring water thing mentioned all the time, even by folks with tens of thousands of posts after their names. It seems to be a common error. In most cases a minor one. Some spring waters however, contain very high levels of certain minerals which impart a great taste but are totally unsuited to brewing

On BIAB. I am a big fan, use it for all my brews and would strongly recommend it if you are looking to do all-grain. It is a lot of fun. 2.5 gallon batches are a cinch in a 5 gallon pot if you've got one. No big investments in gear needed to get started. Just a bag. (I would get a good one for under $30)
 
Adding some sulfate to an IPA really brings out the hoppiness. That you can add to the boil. Just look for gypsum in your brewstore calcium sulfate. Otherwise as long as there is not a strong chlorine smell which you can always filter with a carbon filter. Make sure you don't use a hose either or you will pick up bad flavors.

These are all things you can do to water before even worrying about mashing and pH and all that. It will make sure you have good tasting beer even with extract.
 
Adding minerals gives you more options when using the RO/distilled blank canvass. You have the control which would be lost by using "spring water". That was my main point.

Carbon filters work poorly for reducing chlorine and chloramines. The latter are much more commonly used by water boards and will not be affected by a carbon filter. They are simply and immediately removed with the addition of Campden tablets. 1 tablet treats 20 gallons of tap water. I use 1/3 to 1/2 in each of my brews. I use ~8 gallons of tap water.

I do use a carbon filter to aid with the chlorine but I prep the water the night before. Volatile chlorine will dissipate overnight. Chloramines will not. Hence the Campden tablets.
 
Gavin C said:
Adding minerals gives you more options when using the RO/distilled blank canvass. You have the control which would be lost by using "spring water". That was my main point.

Carbon filters work poorly for reducing chlorine and chloramines. The latter are much more commonly used by water boards and will not be affected by a carbon filter. They are simply and immediately removed with the addition of Campden tablets. 1 tablet treats 20 gallons of tap water. I use 1/3 to 1/2 in each of my brews. I use ~8 gallons of tap water.

I do use a carbon filter to aid with the chlorine but I prep the water the night before. Volatile chlorine will dissipate overnight. Chloramines will not. Hence the Campden tablets.
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Totally agree with all of this. Campden tablet to remove chloramines (which will ruin your beer if you don't eliminate them), and RO/distilled water for extract brews. RO/distilled is great for all grain, too, but since you are still doing extract, it's even more useful, since (as previously mentioned) you aren't looking for mineral contributions to adjust the mash.

You can always add a little gypsum or calcium chloride to the kettle if you're after a particular flavor contribution, but I'd leave that until you get the fundamentals nailed. It's a minor, but touchy, adjustment, and not useful to try to do if you don't have a grasp on everything else.
 
Spring water should not be confused with well, or " ground water", which can be heavily mineralized. Like in some states/areas, like WV. Spring water generally comes from pockets in the bedrock, like natural gas & oil. The spring water from White House Artisian Springs, for example, treats their water this way; http://whitehousesprings.com/OurWater.php
It also explains where the water comes from, which differs from ground water as stated. It seems to be good for maltier beers in my experiences. They charge 25c per gallon now, since Obama tightened the laws governing it. The spring water under the Giant Eagle brand is some 79c per gallon, & seems to be good for hoppy beers. I even use it for re-hydrating yeast. At any rate, the lil yeasties seem to love it, as fermentations go quite well if the rest of the process is properly adhered to.
 
My $0.02 days to use Ro/Di water either way, despite it being devoid necessary minerals from the source. If you're using extract kits the minerals for the correct flavor are already in the syrup, and pH is not a concern. In all grain brewing the correct minerals can be added in the form of simple and affordable brewing salts available at your LHBS. Read through John Palmers how to brew for an easy to understand introduction to Calcium, Magnesium, Chloride, Sulfate, Sodium, and Residual Alkalinity.
 
Digging up old thread I started. I'm asking alot of ? due to the plan of using some taxreturn money to go all grain, and I just remembered my water sucks here. Been buying jugs of distilled. But doesn't it take like 7-8 gallons to make a 5 gallon batch? Even biab? would campden for chlorimine and carbon for taste do it ? Probably need to read more but my mind is racing all over as I want to move on from extract.
 
I use RO from the machine at Kroger for my all grain. It's $.39/gallon. That's only $3.90 for 10 gallons. I believe Walmart has a similar machine. I have three 5 gallon jugs and fill all three when I plan a big 5 gallon batch w/ parti-gyle.
I add calcium chloride, gypsum and phosphoric acid to bring my water into the correct profile and pH.
Bru'n Water and Brewers Friend are good calculators to determine the additions based on what you're trying to achieve.
 
I too use RO water from a water company in town. They are a Culligan type company that sells home filtration systems as well as services businesses. They have an indoor, 24hr vending machine that you can fit a 5gal carboy in. It's $1.50 for 5 gallons. You should look for a place like this near you. (Yes, you'll need 7-10gal per all grain batch depending on the amount of grain you are using and how long you are boiling.)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

This thread gives you a great, simple guide for using RO water, sour malt, gypsum, calcium chloride. It's a great place to start if you are not chemically inclined (like me). Every thing you need is on the first page of the thread.

The following recommendations apply to “soft” water. Here we will define soft as meaning RO or distilled water or any water whose lab report indicates alkalinity less than 35 (ppm as CaCO3 – all other numbers to follow mg/L), sulfate less than 20 (as sulfate – Ward Labs reports as sulfur so multiply the SO4-S number by 3 to get as sulfate), chloride less than 20, sodium less than 20, calcium less than 20 and magnesium less than 20. If your water has numbers higher than these, dilute it with RO or DI water. A 1:1 dilution reduces each ion concentration to 1/2, a 2:1 dilution to 1/3 and so on. If your water contains chloramines add 1 campden tablet per 20 gallons (before any dilution)

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

These recommendations should get you a good beer if not the best beer. To get the best you should vary the amounts of the added salts noting carefully whether a change benefits or detriments your enjoyment of the beer. Additional sulfate will sharpen the perceived hops bitterness. Additional chloride will round, smooth and sweeten the beer. Add or decrease these in small amounts.
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edit: added the quote
 
I was looking at some of the calculators out there, If using ro/distilled my base line water numbers would be 0? Is that right?
 
actech said:
I was looking at some of the calculators out there, If using ro/distilled my base line water numbers would be 0? Is that right?
Click to expand...

Distilled has 0 base line values and the added expense is not really justified over the RO water.

The RO I buy for 39c/gallon clocks in at 7ppm total dissolved solids. (checked with my own TDS meter). Not quite zero but for calculations can effectively be considered the same. Bru'n water has an option for dilution w/ RO water or distilled. Distilled water is 88c/gallon

Using RO is a no brainer if your going to buy water.

Minerals to add to it cost pennies per brew.

Minerals can be considered the seasoning.

Campden tablets are not needed with RO or distilled water. Chlorine and chloramines have been eliminated in the production process.
 
Gavin C said:
Carbon filters work poorly for reducing chlorine and chloramines. The latter are much more commonly used by water boards and will not be affected by a carbon filter.
Click to expand...

Not to be contrary, but as a blanket statement I can't agree with this. We use carbon filters in residential and commercial settings to remove chlorine and treat chloramines as well.

Carbon is widely used to do just that as a prefilter for RO membranes that are damaged by exposure to chlorine.

Can you overwhelm the carbon's ability to work if you push chlorinated or chloraminated water through inadequate amounts of low grade carbon with excessive flow rates? Absolutely.

Carbon works very well, but you have to provide adequate contact time.

Russ
 
Buckeye_Hydro said:
Carbon works very well, but you have to provide adequate contact time.

Russ
Click to expand...

Quite right. My apologies for the blanket over simplification.

The key is indeed contact time. It's going to take a long time to effectively eliminate all the chlorine and chlorine in 10 gallons of water via a carbon filter upstream of a RO membrane.

If not using a dedicated installed carbon filter and/or RO membrane the same can be achieved in seconds via the use of Campden tablets at a cost of ~2c for 10 gallons of brewing water. That is the point I was trying to make.

How long would it take to push 10 gallons of water through the carbon filter you install allowing adequate contact time to eliminate chlorine and chloramines? Obviously this is not a major issue if the device has a reservoir and can run 24/7 as needed. But it's imporatant to clarify the difference in the process and what I was alluding to.

I have a very basic carbon filter (RV filter from Camco) and unlike what you are describing it is simply impractical to use it to eliminate chloramines and chlorine effectively.

One day I hope to have a dedicated RO supply in my homebrewery. Until then I have two choices.
  • Use campden tablets on tap water 2c/10 gallons
  • Buy RO water from the store at 39c/gallon
 
Yes - treating chloramine with a ~2"x10" tube of standard GAC would be a very tall order. Contact times for chloramines in processes that require high certainty of treatment are are the order of 10 minutes.

Russ
 
Buckeye_Hydro said:
Contact times for chloramines in processes that require high certainty of treatment are are the order of 10 minutes.

Russ
Click to expand...

With a standard domestic carbon filter that your install, how much time does 10 minutes contact time through the filter equate to for the preparation of 10 gallons brewing water?
 
I'd also like to note here that anything labeled "Spring Water" at the store simply means water that's been pulled from the ground, possibly treated, and bottled for consumption. It's highly unlikely that it came from an actual "spring".

Mineral content will vary widely.
 
Homercidal said:
I'd also like to note here that anything labeled "Spring Water" at the store simply means water that's been pulled from the ground, possibly treated, and bottled for consumption. It's highly unlikely that it came from an actual "spring".

Mineral content will vary widely.
Click to expand...

Agreed. It is as non-specific and useless a term as "tap water" or "well water" in describing mineral content and a water's suitability for brewing.
 
No mineral content high enough to taste or smell. The way it's worded, there all traces. 25c per gallon. They used to have a break down listed out on the site, but that's been awhile.
 
unionrdr said:
No mineral content high enough to taste or smell.
Click to expand...

I have no clue what my or your taste/smell thresholds are for Na, Ca, Mg, SO4, Cl HCO3 are.

My water has moderate sulphate levels. It smells the same as RO water to my nose.

I'd want to know what the mineral content is if I was to buy it.

25c/gallon is a good price that's for sure.
 
Idk why they no longer list the results of tests on their water? I'd like to see a newer one myself. The last one listed was like 2007. But I can tell you this. It's a hair better for malty beers, & Giant Eagle's spring water is a hair better for hoppy beers. But theirs is like 79c per gallon.
 
unionrdr said:
Idk why they no longer list the results of tests on their water? I'd like to see a newer one myself. The last one listed was like 2007. But I can tell you this. It's a hair better for malty beers, & Giant Eagle's spring water is a hair better for hoppy beers. But theirs is like 79c per gallon.
Click to expand...

Again. These brand names are only useful if the mineral content is known. Spring water is a non-specific term. It means nothing on its own WRT the mineral content of the water.

Brewing by taste and trial and error is totally fine but mentioning a particular brandname is of minimal use to another brewer who doesn't share your taste preferences or have those particular water brand names available to them.

RO or distilled are universal terms. They are also more useful to me as I can build water to however I want and change it from brew to brew. I'm not tied to a regional aquifer or manufacturer's additions.
 
I understand what you're saying. But " spring water" is not the same as " ground" or "well" water. Our aquifers here in Ohio have been pretty good since I started using them a few years ago. May have to see if I can get a water report from White House?
 
unionrdr said:
I understand what you're saying. But " spring water" is not the same as " ground" or "well" water.
Click to expand...

Correct. It's in a bottle with "spring" on the label.

Terms like
  • Well water
  • Ground water
  • Spring water
  • Tap water
  • Smell test threshold? (that's new to me)
  • "Pretty good" Ohio aquifer

These tell the brewer very little to nothing without more information.
 
unionrdr said:
I understand what you're saying. But " spring water" is not the same as " ground" or "well" water. Our aquifers here in Ohio have been pretty good since I started using them a few years ago. May have to see if I can get a water report from White House?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately placing "Spring" on the label only indicates that the water came out of the ground. The gov. does not require any indication of where, how deep, mineral content, etc.

Ice Mountain (Nestle) put a water bottling plant in south of where I live. They pump water out of the ground like everyone else does. After that they treat it to make sure it's sanitary. The alkalinity around here is really high.

An alternate location to that one was about 12 miles west of here. Nothing but woods and farmland. Water doesn't come from a spring, it's just well water, like everyone else uses around here. Local citizens fought to keep the bottling plant out because they feared they would lower the wells in the are, which are used for household drinking water and irrigating farmland.

Hell, our city water is "spring" water right up until they add Chloramine! They draw from 3 wells in town. One of them is located in the parking lot where I work!

Bottled spring water really tells you nothing about the minerals inside. Bottled water companies *should* have a link on their website showing some of the minerals. You might have to look them up.
 
Some of them do if you understand the difference. Spring water comes from pockets, or aquifers in the bedrock. Well or groundwater comes from the water table in the ground. And you can smell the minerals in highly mineralized ground water. Taste can be nasty to slightly evident, but that's a matter of the individual. So there are geologic differences, & to say there aren't is ignorant or?...& It would be nice if they posted the water report once more.
 
unionrdr said:
Some of them do if you understand the difference. Spring water comes from pockets, or aquifers in the bedrock. Well or groundwater comes from the water table in the ground. And you can smell the minerals in highly mineralized ground water. Taste can be nasty to slightly evident, but that's a matter of the individual. So there are geologic differences, & to say there aren't is ignorant or?...
Click to expand...

I'm saying that in EITHER CASE a bottling company can put "Spring Water" on their label. So buying spring water doesn't mean squat to the purchaser. you could buy a bottle labeled spring water and all it means is that it came pumped up from the ground.

Also, you aren't seriously saying that anyone could simply smell water and know how alkaline is, or how much mineral content is in it, are you?
 
After experiencing spring water & ground, or well water in many places, if the mineral content is high enough, some of the minerals can be smelled & tasted. Yuk when too high. And kool-aid doesn't help in some instances...lol. but yeah, the moniker " spring water", in many instances can just be a matter of marketing. Spring water sounds more positive than filtered well water. so I'll give you that. As I stated previously, I get that part. But the waters I mentioned have worked out a tad better than the Lake Erie tap water in the beers I've made from the start. So I'm looking back over five years of using them to brew with when I get into these conversations. Not to be insulting, but I've experienced the differences without water reports. They would be nice to see. I am, understandably, curious.
 
unionrdr said:
Spring water should not be confused with well, or " ground water", which can be heavily mineralized.
Click to expand...

Heavily mineralized delicious spring water unsuitable for brewing

sanpelfacts.jpg


The term is simply meaningless for a brewer.

Use whatever water you want of course, but to advise folks that x brand is good, y brand is better is meaningless as it is solely your preference.

Simpler and less misleading would be to say, " I use X brand for my beers because I like the results over 5 years of brewing"

Your definition of spring water (low mineral content and from a certain type of source) does not match with reality.
  • Many spring waters are highly mineralized.
  • Spring waters come from an array of geographic/geological sources.
 
True, but ours isn't mineralized enough to taste it. Perhaps I'll just rephrase to stop all the nitpicking? And I do specify the brand of waters, so as not to be too generalized. That's as close as I can come to describing what I'm using. If any members live near the two places I get them, they can try them for themselves & see what I've been talking about. I can't tell you what they don't list. so I use my experiences...or just say, " Hey, this is what I use & it works great". So I'm not generalizing, & I'm not wrong. Spring water as a term is quite often misused. The particular qualities of a spring water depend on the rock they came from, of course. But it is not the same as ground water, which comes out of the dirt, to be blunt.
 
unionrdr said:
But it is not the same as ground water, which comes out of the dirt, to be blunt.
Click to expand...

Your definitions are vastly different than what is generally accepted. This is not nit-picking in a discussion on water and how it relates to brewing.

You write brewing books, have a youtube channel and have many years of brewing experience. It's kind of important to get the facts straight if your audience are prospective brewers or folks wanting to learn more.

Spring water is just a subset of ground water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundwater
 
Gavin C said:
[*]Smell test threshold? (that's new to me)
Click to expand...
Test subjects are presented successively less diluted samples of the water being tested and the dilution at which they first detect and odor is reported as the Threshold Odor Number (TON). IOW if no odor is detected when 19 mL of sample is diluted to 200 ml but is when 20 mL of sample is diluted to 200 mL the TON is 10.
 
ajdelange said:
Test subjects are presented successively less diluted samples of the water being tested and the dilution at which they first detect and odor is reported as the Threshold Odor Number (TON). IOW if no odor is detected when 19 mL of sample is diluted to 200 ml but is when 20 mL of sample is diluted to 200 mL the TON is 10.
Click to expand...

Specifically WRT to determining mineral content in water. Is my sulphate level OK for my APA I'm brewing? Hold on a sec, let me have a wiff of your water and I'll tell you.

I am aware of a smell threshold test in other respects
 
No need for sarcasm. I'm not talking about labs, tests, whatever. I've had well water in WV & North Olmsted where you could smell the stuff in the water, as well as taste it. I'm not saying using smell or taste to determine whether to use it or not, so don't mince my words into something they're not.
Ground water picks up these minerals as it moves through the substrate. It can take a very long time to do so, picking up minerals in the soil/broken rock, etc it travels through. So location does indeed matter. So in my experience, as you're so fond of discussing, Well water, which comes through the ground, ie dirt, can taste a heck of a lot different than what comes out of wells drilled in the bedrock & piped to the surface, BEFORE it moves through what's under our feet & gets more mineralized. some times quite a bit. When I mention using spring water, I also mention where I get it here in OHIO. I know it may be different where they are, thus mentioning where it came from. I also think we should stop being quite so PC around here, merely for the sake of argument.
 

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