1st Saison Help PLZ!

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ChadChaney

ChadChaney

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Hey guys/gals,

I am a new AG brewer and I want to make a sasion, love the style, but I am having a hard time deciding on a recipe. Originally I had in mind using pale 2 row (have a bunch on hand), small amount of honey malt, and some red wheat with WL565. Does this sound close to the style, I have seen some posts/topics saying the honey malt might contribute too much sweetness, and I do not want that, I really want the yeast to shine through. Any pointers appreciated!
 
I am not sure about the honey malt. It may be a little sweet for a saison, but my taste goes toward the dry spicy flavor.

I like to keep them pretty simple. Pilsen, maybe a little Munich or cara-munich, a little wheat. I usually use a little sugar to help dry it out.

You did not mention what hops. What hops are you planning on using? I usually like Saaz, Hallertau. or I even did one recently with French Strisslespalt that was very good.
 
Just to comment about the 565 yeast, as I recently brewed my first Saison as well, I read that it was a bit finicky and call stall out around the 1.030 or so mark. I decided to go with 566 and all seems well (brewed this past Saturday). It is also a year-round yeast now versus a seasonal release in the past. As for the malt bill, the simpler the better. I believe one, at the professional level, is made only with Pilsner malt.
 
The "classic" saison recipes are all or mostly pilsner. Vienna and Munich are common additions, as is the simple sugar of your choice. Smaller amounts of biscuit are less common. Caramel/Crystal malts (Honey malt falls into this category) are usually omitted. If you want to sub 2-row for pilsner, it may not be authentic. However, it will probably be cheaper and you can avoid an extra 30 minutes of boiling. If you go 2-row, I would add some sort of specialty grain to avoid a flat, one-note taste.

To get more yeast character, you can--gasp!--underpitch a little and ferment in the mid-80s. Disclaimer: I don't encourage anyone to do these things with other yeasts.
 
I love a little acidulated malt in my saison, along w/ some Belgian pilsen and a little bit of carapils. Fermented w/ 3522 provides a nice balance.
 
Question from another beginning saison brewer--it seems like many if not most folks brew bigger saisons, 1.060 and up. I want to make a table saison of less than 5%. Am I nevertheless going to have the same difficulty reaching the desired high attenuation, particularly if (as I'm planning) I use Wyeast's Belgian Saison 3724?

I was hoping that with a lower OG, I might have luck with a normal fermentation of three weeks at about 70F.
 
tonyolympia said:
I was hoping that with a lower OG, I might have luck with a normal fermentation of three weeks at about 70F.
Click to expand...

I know it sounds crazy but with that yeast you want to pitch obscenely high (85-90F) if you want it to attenuate quickly. Otherwise be prepared to wait it out or pitch a second yeast to finish up. (That is the Dupont yeast and I believe they ferment around 90)
If you're more comfortable fermenting in say the low-mid 70's (all saison yeast perform best on the warm side) then I'd suggest 3711. It's a beast even down in the 60's but you won't get the nice citrus flavors out of it unless you're in the 70's.
 
WilliamWS said:
I know it sounds crazy but with that yeast you want to pitch obscenely high (85-90F) if you want it to attenuate quickly. Otherwise be prepared to wait it out or pitch a second yeast to finish up. (That is the Dupont yeast and I believe they ferment around 90)
If you're more comfortable fermenting in say the low-mid 70's (all saison yeast perform best on the warm side) then I'd suggest 3711. It's a beast even down in the 60's but you won't get the nice citrus flavors out of it unless you're in the 70's.
Click to expand...

Wow, so you can actually START at 85-90, as opposed to pitching at ~67 and ramping up to those temps? That doesn't seem like such a big deal, then. Maybe I'll start at 80 and let it rise naturally, and hope that the Dupont yeast can quickly eat up 35 or so gravity points. Sound good?
 
I have always understood it as starting low and ramping up. The raising of the temperature helps the yeast completely attenuate.
 
With my 3724 saison, I pitched at 68, and ramped the temp up 3 degrees a day to 93, where I let it sit.
I kind of forgot about it so it sat in the fermenting keg for 9 weeks, but it went from 1.065 to 1.006.
The taste is good, but a bit muted, I'm not getting the fruity esters I was hoping for. Possibly because of the ramp? I also SEVERELY underpitched (no starter for 5 gallons)

If I had it to do over again, I'd start at a little higher temp (75 ish), with a better pitching rate.
 
At close to 100 F, I'd worry about cracking my carboy when I rack my wort over. At 75 F, I think I'd worry less.

Thanks for the info, everyone.
 
HawksBrewer said:
I love a little acidulated malt in my saison, along w/ some Belgian pilsen and a little bit of carapils. Fermented w/ 3522 provides a nice balance.
Click to expand...


What's the Acid Malt give you wrt "Flavour" and how Much? I'm getting ready to make a Rye Saison this weekend (Rye/Pilsen/Dark Candy only)
 
tonyolympia said:
At close to 100 F, I'd worry about cracking my carboy when I rack my wort over.
Click to expand...

That's just silly. No way your carboy would crack from thermal shock due to a 15-20 degree difference (65-70 room temp up to 85). I've rinsed MANY a carboy with hot tap water at 127F.
 
WilliamWS said:
That's just silly. No way your carboy would crack from thermal shock due to a 15-20 degree difference (65-70 room temp up to 85). I've rinsed MANY a carboy with hot tap water at 127F.
Click to expand...

Well, that's good news. Yet another reason for me to RDWHAHB.
 
Well, looks like the honey malt is out, maybe go with a little Munich instead. I have a ton of 2row on hand, but I think I will swap that to Pilsner. Also now thinking maybe some oats, a little special B or Victory?

Have a brew belt coming soon too, so I will definitely pitch at 90 and hold it there! Thanks for the input!
 
I am doing my first saison as well tomorrow. I have a nice big starter of 3711, plan to mash in the high 140s for 90 minutes. I am also looking to make a table saison, something to compliment a meal without leaving you feeling hammered.
 
As mentioned earlier, the 3711 is best in the mid 70's. It'll finish fermentation and leave you with a dry beer even if you ferment cooler but it won't produce the nice flavors it's capable of at lower temps. I would not, however, attempt to ferment at the same temps as the 3724.
I just did one that I pitched with a combo of 3711 and cultured Fantome dregs that I pitched at 74 and held at 76. It went from 1.064 to 1.006 in 36hrs and seems to be developing really nice flavors.
 
If I've learned anything about brewing saisons in my short brewing career, I can sum everything up in about 3 points:

1) Yeast. Saisons are all about the yeast. Ferment hot, and ferment a lot. My best saisons have used a blend of various Belgian strains. 80*F MINIMUM pitching temp, and let it go wild. I usually wrap my fermenters in a comforter. For yeast blends, I've been trying various mixes, but I have found that 3724 and 3787 are a pretty good staple to build on.

2) Use only base malts. As in no crystal malts. And by base malts I mean anything from 2-row, pilsner, Vienna, spelt, wheat, etc. Basically just a base malt and a variety of cereal grains. Go as crazy as you want. My last batch used 2-row, Vienna, flaked corn, flaked wheat, and wheat malt. Is it authentic? Nah. Is it good? I've been told it is. And mash low and long. 146*F for 90 minutes is my favorite.

3) Get creative with your hops. Hop it like a pale ale, just lower on the bittering charge though. Aim for 20 or so IBUs with the 60 minute addition, be a little modest with the flavor addition, and add anywhere from 0.5 oz to 1.5 oz at flameout. Go ahead and dry hop it if you feel like. The yeast will still dominate the flavor if you don't go too overboard with things.


And as a side note, if you're able to find Great Divide's Colette, do try to culture some of the dregs from a bottle. They use a blend of 4 yeasts, and it's definitely one of my favorites to use in saisons. I've always had it finish out at 1.002-1.004 every time I've used it.

I love saisons, mostly because how good they taste, but also because of the unbridled creativity that can come with the style.
 
phenry said:
If I've learned anything about brewing saisons in my short brewing career, I can sum everything up in about 3 points:

1) Yeast. Saisons are all about the yeast. Ferment hot, and ferment a lot. My best saisons have used a blend of various Belgian strains. 80*F MINIMUM pitching temp, and let it go wild. I usually wrap my fermenters in a comforter. For yeast blends, I've been trying various mixes, but I have found that 3724 and 3787 are a pretty good staple to build on.

2) Use only base malts. As in no crystal malts. And by base malts I mean anything from 2-row, pilsner, Vienna, spelt, wheat, etc. Basically just a base malt and a variety of cereal grains. Go as crazy as you want. My last batch used 2-row, Vienna, flaked corn, flaked wheat, and wheat malt. Is it authentic? Nah. Is it good? I've been told it is. And mash low and long. 146*F for 90 minutes is my favorite.

3) Get creative with your hops. Hop it like a pale ale, just lower on the bittering charge though. Aim for 20 or so IBUs with the 60 minute addition, be a little modest with the flavor addition, and add anywhere from 0.5 oz to 1.5 oz at flameout. Go ahead and dry hop it if you feel like. The yeast will still dominate the flavor if you don't go too overboard with things.

And as a side note, if you're able to find Great Divide's Colette, do try to culture some of the dregs from a bottle. They use a blend of 4 yeasts, and it's definitely one of my favorites to use in saisons. I've always had it finish out at 1.002-1.004 every time I've used it.

I love saisons, mostly because how good they taste, but also because of the unbridled creativity that can come with the style.
Click to expand...

Awesome advice, thanks so much.
 
Ok, so I think I am about set to brew this beast. Leaning towards about 9lbs of Pilsner, some flaked wheat, flaked oats, red wheat malt, acidulated malt, Sazz hops and the Dupont strain to start. Planning on pitching at 90 and holding there using a brewpad. Anyone care to help me craft the details of the grain bill? I would appreciate it, never used the acid malt before.
 

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