Electric Keggle

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jezter6

jezter6

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I've searched a little on the topic, and aside from overly geek-speak posts of voltage, wattage, and a bunch of namby pamby naysayers - I got nothing out of it.

So, aside from all that, I'd like to talk about an electric mash tun and boil kettle. I'd like to do step mashing, easily, indoors. I live in an apartment, and it has electric range that I can't replace. It sucks, but I have to live here for now.

I also don't have the ability to put in 220 circuits either, so that has to be straight out.

How can I mash and boil indoors with an electric system not tied to my range? I've seen the British buckets, but I'm not interested in boiling water in plastic. I'm also AG, so I need to boil ~7 gallons to get my 5.5 recipes into a fermenter.

I saw some pictures of electric fed kettles, some overly complex diagrams, and a lot of "it's bad, you'll scorch."

Is there anyplace you can buy a converted electric keggle? If I had enough diagrams, is it easy enough to get an electrician to build it for me? Can I do this on my standard house power?

Please keep the super geek discussion to a minimum, as I don't understand things like volts/watts or the difference between AC and DC.
 
Bump, I just wanted to move this up. I've been doing searches also and have not come up with anything that I understand. Hope someone here can point us in the right direction.
 
just a random idea, but couldn't you rig up one of those on-demand electric water heaters with a pump and set it to the desired temp. then you would have heat on demand and i think most of the water heaters are 110. it would take some work and a good welder, but it sounds like a solid idea. rig some pipes for inlet and out let, circulate with a hot water pump. Only thing im not sure of is how much if any scorching you might get. maybe some over caramalization from the heater element.
 
jezter6 said:
Please keep the super geek discussion to a minimum, as I don't understand things like volts/watts or the difference between AC and DC.
Click to expand...
No offense or anything, but if you don't understand at least the most basic concepts of electricity, it doesn't seem all that safe to be using a custom-built electric kettle, which has the potential to be pretty dangerous if not built/used properly. Of course it can be built to be safe, but at the very least, you should make absolutely sure of its safety (trust your electrician, get a second opinion, etc) before you try using it. We don't need any homebrewers getting electrocuted ;)

At the expense of some technical discussion, you do have to realize the limitations you are stuck with if you're limited to 120V outlets only. 120V outlets are typically only good for 15-20 amps, which caps you at 1800-2400W as an absolute maximum for a single circuit, and to be safe you probably ought to be well under that limit. I do not brew with electric elements so I don't have personal experience with how much wattage you need in a keggle, but I have seen examples of people using about 4500W total. To accomplish that you would most likely have to have three different elements plugged into three different circuits in your apartment, which probably means running extension cords (most likely more expensive heavy-duty ones), and that sounds like a big, expensive, potentially dangerous mess. There is a reason why most people use 240V elements.

Don't get me wrong, I can definitely see the appeal - I'm in a similar situation, in an apartment with only 120V outlets and a crappy stove. I do all my boils outside on a propane burner, I'm lucky to have the space to do so - but I think I'd definitely be interested in brewing indoors with electric elements if it were practical for me to do so, especially when it's freezing cold outside. But every time I've considered it, the limitations of the electric system in my apartment seem too significant.
 
Funkenjaeger said:
120V outlets are typically only good for 15-20 amps, which caps you at 1800-2400W as an absolute maximum for a single circuit, and to be safe you probably ought to be well under that limit.
Click to expand...

80% for continuous use
 
If you have an ecectric stove or clothes dryer you probably already have some 220 power available, just unplug one and plug in your electric keggle :mug:
 
SuperiorBrew said:
If you have an ecectric stove or clothes dryer you probably already have some 220 power available, just unplug one and plug in your electric keggle :mug:
Click to expand...

Hrmm...interesting. Now I'll have to look.

If that's the case, and I can use 220, then unplugging the dryer will be an easy option.


And to the person above - just because I don't know how to build one, doesn't mean I shouldn't consider owning one. I can't build a car, and most people I know can't build a computer, yet we all can operate one by turing them on and using the buttons correctly. I may not be an electrical engineer - but plugging in and turning switches I can handle.
 
jezter6 said:
And to the person above - just because I don't know how to build one, doesn't mean I shouldn't consider owning one. I can't build a car, and most people I know can't build a computer, yet we all can operate one by turing them on and using the buttons correctly. I may not be an electrical engineer - but plugging in and turning switches I can handle.
Click to expand...
The difference being that cars and computers are mass-produced and generally speaking, to make it to market they have to be at least moderately safe. Unless there are some major manufacturers out there that I don't know about, you'll likely end up with a custom-built electric kettle which offers no such guarantee of safety, which is why I suggested that if you are determined to have one built without at least learning the basics of electricity (and electrical safety) you should take some extra steps to get help from people with more experience with electrical work to make sure it's completely safe. Electricity is a different ballgame from some other pieces of equipment, especially when dealing with thousands of watts of power, because the hazards are often silent and invisible - a wire heating up and melting insulation, a water leak leading to an electrified puddle, etc... So it pays to be extra careful.

I was making the suggestion to err on the side of safety, it's just my own opinion based on my knowledge of electricity, you're more than welcome to ignore it - it's your life.
 
What about portable induction heating elements?

I found a link here that sort of explains the item. Is 1600w enough to boil 7.5 gallons? I assume it would take a LONG time to get up there, but would it work? I know my kettle is larger than this particular model is able to handle, but I'm sure there are other models out there...
 
some searching revealed this little beauty!! Now I want to brew with electric. Check it out:

http://texanbrew.com/index.php?topic=me

You would need a recirculation pump and a boil pot with the appropriate fittings, but the idea is sound. Seperating the heating element from the recirculating wort removes the chances of scorching, but I'm wondering if it could transfer enough heat to actually boil the wort. My thought is to use oil in the heat exchanger, so it can reach higher temps and allow for enough heat movement to actually boil the wort.
 
I just had a new idea. If a pump could be found capable of moving really hot oil, why not use a 220V fryer? Heat the oil to 350 degrees and pump it through a coil in the brewpot like an immersion chiller. The pot could be insulated to help hold as much heat inside as possible.
 
jezter6 said:
Is 1600w enough to boil 7.5 gallons?
Click to expand...

Nope.

I've got a double element, 'tea urn' (can be seen in my blog link in my sig). It's got 3400W and it works nicely for my 7ish gallon boils, I wouldn't want to go any less though. I know you said the electricity jargon doesn't mean much to you but remember that watts pretty much equal the amount of heat the element puts out.

I'm in New Zealand and we're all on 240V here so I can be much of help electricity wise.

I've never had a problem with scorching with the 9 batches I've done with this system. I've also brewed a pils that has come out very light.

I'd get a sparky to do it for you if you don't feel up to it yourself. I also would look at the heatstick option or if you can find suitable elements then a permanent immersed element works well. The only problem with the permanent system is that it gets in the way of the chiller, I think it might also slow chilling times because I think the element stays hot after it's turned off and during chilling.
 
I use a CFC, so chilling is as fast as gravity can drain my pot. Faster if I would buy a pump. So I'm not worried about blocking my chiller.

I just happen to have a spare keggle that would be nice if I could hook up electric and brew nicely indoors during these cold (or in summer - super hot) days.

Again, I wouldn't be building this myself anyways. I'd have a proper electrician friend take care of the leg work (and beta testing) to be assured I don't blow myself up.
 
jezter6 said:
Is 1600w enough to boil 7.5 gallons? I assume it would take a LONG time to get up there, but would it work?
Click to expand...

Short answer, is no. I went off and built 2 1200 watt heat sticks, plugged them into different circuits, and put my kettle over my electric stove, guess what it never boiled. It took over an hour to heat to 210 degrees, and never in the course of the next hour did I get a "boil". Sure the liquid in the pot rolled around like it was really hot, but it never broke 212. So not only did I never actually boil my wort, it easily added 2 hours to my brew day.

More than that though, it was scary. Even with some electrical knowledge, here you are taking all sorts of parts and pieces for unintended uses. I was working 120, and nervous. I wouldn't even consider 220.
 
I love the "disclaimer" legal mumbo jumbo from the supplier linked above. A 220 electric brew kettle is not a "plug and play item". see below

"As with any gas fired system, large volumes of boiling hot liquid are inherently dangerous, and extreme care is recommended. Adding high-energy electricity to the equation increases the potential of danger. The heating elements must always be completely immersed when energized. Careless operation can result in serious injury or death.

This equipment is sold as an experimental kit, to assembled by the user. High Gravity assumes no responsibility for any damages caused by operation of this system. "

I would love one but would need to wire up the service in my home. I feel that they are safe if the end user is competent.
 
I have an electric HLT and can say from experience that as long as you do othe proper research and follow proper & safe practices with it, anyone can build/use one. That being said, find a local Mom & Pop Hardware store, you know the kind where it looks like they have stuff on the shelves from 1952. In my experince the folks that own/operate these type of hardware stores have more knowledge about the products they sell and they are more likely to spend the time with you discussing the proper way to do things rather than the "big box stores"

I have two 1500 Watt, 110 Volt Elements in my HLT and can maintian 10 gallons of water at a rolling boil with ~35 deg ambient air temps. I brew out side and have seen first hand that it is possible. Not saying that it will be kind to your electric bill though.

A few considerations when building/operating an electric HLT/kettle:

1. Always plug the elements (if there are more then one) in to seperate circuits in the house. (seperate outlets that run off of different circuit breakers in the box) In an appartment you may need to plug one into a kitchen outlet and one into a bedroom or living room outlet to achieve that. A GFCI outlet is prefered, it would be an outlet that has the little buttons in the middle. Most places it is code to have them in the kitchen as well as the bathrooms, may vary in different areas though.

2. Make sure that all electrical conections inside and outside of the HLT are well sealed. Mine are sealed on the inside with high temp o-rings and the outside is all sealed up with high temp silicone.

3. Leak check everything prior to initial use, and always inspect before using. Fill up the kettle with water and let it sit for a couple of days to see if water is leaking out of the inner fittings, before sealing up the outside.

4. THIS ONE IS IMPORTANT! NEVER NEVER NEVER leave an extention cord coiled up while using the HLT! Did i mention NEVER do this. It will act as a big inductor and build up heat from the current flow. I know this from experience as well. I should have known better as i am an electronics technician, but none the less i made the mistake and melted a cord, luckily we discovered our mistake before anything bad happened.

Here is a picture of mine if you would like more specs on it PM me:

Outside:
7985-NewKettles4Edit.jpg


Inside:
7985-NewKettles5Edit.jpg



Cheers
 
WOP31,

Thank you! I appreciate your information. I think that if 2 elements running on 110 works for you, that I can do the same thing without a problem. I know I don't have much in the way of GFI outlets, but I've seen a number of extension cords which have GFI circuits in them. Luckily, being in an apartment, I have a number of separated circuits all within about 10-15 feet of another and can easily do this with extension cords and the like.

I would assume that with 2 lower wattage units that the risk of scorching is less than one super high output one running on the 220?

I will certainly PM you for more info. You are da MAN!
 
shafferpilot said:
I just had a new idea. If a pump could be found capable of moving really hot oil, why not use a 220V fryer? Heat the oil to 350 degrees and pump it through a coil in the brewpot like an immersion chiller. The pot could be insulated to help hold as much heat inside as possible.
Click to expand...

The problem with this idea is that frying oil gets to 350 degree because it cannot evaporate/boil. You start pulling water through coils in the oil, and the oil temp will max out at 212* as the excess energy will be liberated by the boiling water. And, since you have two pots now, the radiated heat will double, making it less efficient that just putting the wort into the cooker.

I've got another thread here somewhere about my experiences with an electric turkey fryer (1800w). Basically, this is it: It will heat oil to 400* all day long. It will rolling boil 3 gallons with a lid (about 1 hr). It will slow/low boil 3 gallons without a lid. It will low boil 5 gallons with a lid, or very low boil/simmer it w/o a lid.

The bottom line is that the total heat lost from a boiling pot of water is pretty close to 1800W. As such, anything I wouldn't spend money building/buying anything less than 3600W.

giono2 said:
I was working 120, and nervous. I wouldn't even consider 220.
Click to expand...

Giono2; I don't mean to flame, but I've need to make a point loud and clear.
*** 120V WILL KILL YOU JUST A DEAD AS 220V. ***
Don't ever make the mistake of assuming that it's somehow less deadly. Know and respect the principles of electrical engineering.

WOP31 said:
A GFCI outlet is prefered, it would be an outlet that has the little buttons in the middle.
Click to expand...

I would say say that a GFCI is required anytime you mix electricity and fluids. It would suck for your heating element to start leaking/ground out and you figure it out the hard way when you lay your hand on the kettle or stuck in a spoon.

jezter6 said:
I've seen a number of extension cords which have GFI circuits in them.
Click to expand...

That is an option, but keep in mind that they do not work unless the outlet they are plugged into is properly grounded. Buy a $5.00 outlet tester and check that outlet periodically to make sure all is still grounded properly.

Also, remember that you lose a lot of power through an extension cord, so get a large one (10ga or better) and keep it as short as possible. For comparison, my turkey fryer takes TWICE as long to come up to heat on a 50ft x 10ga extension cord.

Final comment, if you are going to go to all this trouble, why not install a 220v element and run it off the dryer outlet. It'll heat faster (6600W vs 3000W), cost less (220v is more efficient than 120V), and only requires on cord ans set of wiring.
 
pldoolittle said:
...I would say say that a GFCI is required anytime you mix electricity and fluids...

...Final comment, if you are going to go to all this trouble, why not install a 220v element and run it off the dryer outlet...
Click to expand...

I've not seen many a clothes dryer outlet with the proper GFCI breaker installed...

They are kind of expensive and not a very good diy project for a beginner, but you REALLY should have one installed if you're going to think about this.
 
Funkenjaeger said:
The difference being that cars and computers are mass-produced and generally speaking, to make it to market they have to be at least moderately safe. Unless there are some major manufacturers out there that I don't know about, you'll likely end up with a custom-built electric kettle which offers no such guarantee of safety, which is why I suggested that if you are determined to have one built without at least learning the basics of electricity (and electrical safety) you should take some extra steps to get help from people with more experience with electrical work to make sure it's completely safe. Electricity is a different ballgame from some other pieces of equipment, especially when dealing with thousands of watts of power, because the hazards are often silent and invisible - a wire heating up and melting insulation, a water leak leading to an electrified puddle, etc... So it pays to be extra careful.

I was making the suggestion to err on the side of safety, it's just my own opinion based on my knowledge of electricity, you're more than welcome to ignore it - it's your life.
Click to expand...

On the same topic, I think it would be difficult to find a licensed electician who would be willing to open himself to the legal liability exposure of building a home-brewer a custom piece of equipment that is not UL or CE approved.

Unfortunately, a lot of the stuff we homebrewers are successfully building today will probably remain semi-custom, do-it-yourself items until some entrapeneur with an umbrella insurance policy decides to go commercial with this stuff.
 
The 250vac 30 amp inline GFCI I'm using is here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320127806711&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=011

(scoates pointed me to that)

also, I found this at high gravity: http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=157&idproduct=2352

I called them and talked to the guy who builds them. It's not grounded, so you might have to modify it for added safety. Also would be quite a bit cheaper to build yourself and you can put in a more powerful element.
 
5 Is Not Enough said:
I've not seen many a clothes dryer outlet with the proper GFCI breaker installed..
Click to expand...

Yea, I thought about that after I typed it. Of course, you could always just stick one in the breaker box. My hot tub has a 50A/220V GFCI breaker.

neo82087 said:
I called them and talked to the guy who builds them. It's not grounded, so you might have to modify it for added safety.
Click to expand...

Not grounded? That's just nuts! A simple short would make your keggle a booby trap waiting for your loving touch....
 
pldoolittle said:
Not grounded? That's just nuts! A simple short would make your keggle a booby trap waiting for your loving touch....
Click to expand...


"They called him "Sparky" from that day on. He was a nice guy, till someone started a microwave oven within 100ft, then he would freak out and start swinging."
 
For a heatstick, I installed a 20 Amp breaker and ran 12 gauge conduit to my outlet. Then I made a GFI extension cord (i.e. - a male plug -> conduit -> GFI outlet, all in a weather-proof box). Plugged in my heatstick (2000 watt 120 volt) to that and was good to go.

Heatsticks are also so versatile. Mine can heat up about 3 gallons to boiling in about 30 minutes (haven't timed it yet). They also come in handy if you don't hit your mash temp quite right. I use mine to break up grain, while heating if necessary. You can also just heat your strike water directly in your MLT (even if it's a cooler) if you put a bit of JB Weld on the end of the heatstick.

It would be only a couple extra steps to adapt these heat stick directions (also linked in a previous post) to an electric keggle. As mentioned above, you'd absolutely need a GFI outlet, and to be sure that the elements are grounded to the keg. However, instead of going to all the trouble of installing the element(s) on the keg, why not just use a heatstick or two instead? Then you can also use the same one for the mash, sparge, ...
 

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