Custom Mixed-Fermentation Microbe Ratio

I've been searching far and wide for information regarding mixed-fermentation microbe ratios for custom blends of Sacch, Brett, and LAB (Pedio, and Lacto).

Here is the (conflicting) direct pitches I've been able to gather so far from website or email:

White Labs:

• Saccharomyces: ?
• Brettanomyces: 0.7 L/BBL (primary) and 0.5 L/BBL (secondary)
• LAB: 1.0 L/BBL (primary) and 0.2 L/BBL (secondary)

Wyeast:

• Saccharomyces: 0.5 L/BBL
• Brettanomyces: 1.0 L/BBL (primary) and 0.5 L/BBL (secondary)
• LAB: 3.0-5.8 L/BBL (secondary)

ECY:

• Saccharomyces: ?
• Brettanomyces: >50% of culture
• LAB: ?

Sui Generis (cell counts):

• Saccharomyces: 55% of culture
• Brettanomyces: 11% of culture
• Lactobacillus: 22% of culture
• Pediococcus: 11% of culture

Does anyone have any further insight to what has worked for you? Or perhaps commercial correspondence with specific ratios/pitch rates?

Also I realize I can just buy these pre-mixed cultures from commercial labs, but I am hoping to make something unique.

Thanks!

I haven't done any custom blends where I did more than 'pitch a little sacc along with the slurry from this batch, some dregs, and a little bit of a brett starter.'
Following.

secondbase said:

I haven't done any custom blends where I did more than 'pitch a little sacc along with the slurry from this batch, some dregs, and a little bit of a brett starter.'
Following.

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Same - I've pitched commercial dregs with Sacch and slurries from previous batches, but was hoping someone would chime in with specific ratios or optimal pitching rates from experience. Fingers crossed.

East Coast Yeast claims brett makes up more than 50% of their blends.

What you want the final product to taste like would matter a lot. For a mixed ferment saison perhaps you'd pitch pitch 2:1:1 sacc/brett/lacto. For a lambic/american wild maybe 1:2:2. I think the pedio part of the blend would be least important since this would kick in at the end and wouldn't ferment much of the early sugars.

I'm interested in this myself. I mainly do mixed ferment saisons with a bit of tartness and a nice fruity balanced funk brett flavor. What I do the most is pitch a healthy starter of lacto brevis, once it falls to pitching temp I do a full pitch of saison yeast according to the calculators along with an eyeballed brett slurry grown on a stir plate starter, probably about 100 mL or so.

So currently it pretty much add lacto, pitch full sachh and eyeballed slurry of brett. Figuring out a ratio would be nice for repeatability and also just starting up a culture from scratch.

I'm interested in both! I'm working on a Farmhouse Ale that will utilize Sacch, Brett, and Lacto (no pedio) and some Wild Ales that will utilize Sacch, Brett, Lacto, and Pedio.

FWIW, Nick from the Yeast Bay told me that it doesn't take much Brett or LAB to get contributions for a Wild Ale, and that higher cell counts lead to quicker flavor development.

I have a microbiologist friend that I'm trying to talk into doing cell counts on commercial wild/sour cultures to see if we can reverse engineer some ratios from that.

@secondbase - thanks for the insight! I'm not exactly sure if that helps me or not, but will add to the first post to keep building what has been cited.

I'd love to know more about this, have you heard anything more?

I'm really trying to figure out a good way to approach this for brett saisons. I think doing a full pitch of the sacc is the way to go but how much brett to pitch alongside this. I'm probably overthinking this but for now I'll stick with about 100 mL of thick slurry. This may not even matter at all, the saison yeast will reproduce and out compete the brett so just giving it the presence of brett in any amount may have a similar result.

ShemRahBoo said:

I'd love to know more about this, have you heard anything more?

I'm really trying to figure out a good way to approach this for brett saisons. I think doing a full pitch of the sacc is the way to go but how much brett to pitch alongside this. I'm probably overthinking this but for now I'll stick with about 100 mL of thick slurry. This may not even matter at all, the saison yeast will reproduce and out compete the brett so just giving it the presence of brett in any amount may have a similar result.

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FWIW Nick from The Yeast Bay said that it only takes a small amount of Brett and LAB to produce a complex culture. I would think more would potentially speed the process but im not sure. Im going to have a microbio friend of mine look at the cell counts under a scope...ill share what he finds