Understanding Dextrin, Lactose, crystal malt and mash temp

I'm trying to make sense of different information I found about the end result of using these ingredients on a recipe.
Most confusing part to me is to separate the idea of a high FG and sweetness.
It seems that points that come from dextrin malt or powder or by mashing at higher temp do not make the beer sweeter, but add "body" and improve head retention.
Anyway, I though we could discuss this and come up with a better understanding of what to use for the intended results.
That been said, please comment on what you think each ingredient below adds on a recipe, regarding body, sweetness, head improvement.
1) dextrin malt or powder/ carapils
2) crystal malt
3) mash at higher temperature
4) lactose

This is my humble opinion:
1) mouth feel and head improvement. Some people may experience increase of sweetness. Most people would not notice that.
2) mouth feel and sweetness
3) mouth feel and head retention
4) mouth feel and sweetness. Make a creamier finish.

1 - dextrin malt - helps add...wait for it...dextrins to the beer. Dextrins are long chained sugars. The longer chained the sugar is, the less sweet it is. That is why lactose is much less sweet than fructose. We don't pick dextrins up as sweet. They do add body in the sense that they make the solution "thicker". Think of the body of heavy cream vs skim milk. Although we are talking about fat in this case, heavy cream has more "stuff" in solution, therefore it is fuller bodied. Same thing with dextrins.

2 - crystal malt - adds caramel flavors (depending on how dark). C60 will be more caramel while C120 will add darker raisin, and plum flavors. Crystal malts also add a degree of dextrins and a little sweetness.

3 - Mash at higher temp - Temperatures above 155°F favor alpha-amalayse. Alpha-amalayse or the "debranching" enzyme breaks down starches into smaller chunks from the middle. These chunks tend to be larger dextrins instead of a small sweet sugars. Therefore, mashing at a higher temp will give a more dextrinous wort.

4 - Lactose is not an extremely sweet sugar, therefore will give the beer more body and make it "creamier" as you say.

1) Unfermentable sugars, head retention, sweetness, higher FG
2) Sweetness, caramel/toffee flavors, higher FG
3) I'm not sure this would help with head retention but will make a less fermentable wort (higher FG), mashing lower and adding more crystal malt or other unfermentables gives similar results to mashing higher. A protein rest at 125-130F will increase head retention.
4) Unfermenatable, adds sweetness and creamy finish, higher FG

The sweetness thing is very subjective. I'm really sensitive to sweetness and don't really like it in my beers, anything above 1.015 or so, depending on the style, is too sweet for me, no matter where the sweetness comes from. This might, however, be very different for others.

Don't forget that crystal malt add body and head retention.




.

nilo said:

1) dextrin malt or powder/ carapils
2) crystal malt
3) mash at higher temperature
4) lactose

Click to expand...

1) adds body and head retention
2) caramel flavors
3) adds body
4) creaminess

So did anyone conclude if mashing at higher temps gives a sweeter beer or not ?

Seems to me that if alpha amylase produce more dextrins and less fermentable sugar - and, as others have stated, dextrins are not really sweet - then you should actually have a less sweet beer if you mash at a higher temp since the sweetness comes from residual FERMENTABLE (ie NOT dextrins) sugars

Mashing higher primarily affects mouthfeel. Whether or not it translates into a sweeter beer depends on the ingredients, but it's generally the case. Those long-chain sugars may be less sweet than monosaccharides and disaccharides, but they are also less fermentable or unfermentable by saccharomyces cerevisiae. In other words, eventhough you start out with a less-sweet wort, you end up with a sweeter beer.

ArcaneXor said:

Mashing higher primarily affects mouthfeel. Whether or not it translated into a sweeter beer depends on the ingredients, but it's generally the case. Those long-chain sugars may be less sweet and monosaccharides and disaccharides, but they are also less fermentable or unfermentable by saccharomyces cerevisiae. In other words, eventhough you start out with a less-sweet wort, you end up with a sweeter beer.

Click to expand...

Is this for all the above, including mashing at a higher temp or just if adding dextrin or lactose?

res291que said:

Is this for all the above, including mashing at a higher temp or just if adding dextrin or lactose?

Click to expand...

I was referring to mashing.

Just to clarify then mashing higher and/or the addition of other sugars will make for sweeter beers? Thanks

res291que said:

Just to clarify then mashing higher and/or the addition of other sugars will make for sweeter beers? Thanks

Click to expand...

Yes, and no.

Mashing at a higher temperature creates more long-chained sugars, which are less fermentable by brewers yeast. That translate to a fuller mouthfeel, and more body, and a bit of sweetness in the finish due to a higher FG.

Adding sugars may or may not cause a "sweeter beer", because some sugars are 100% fermentable while some sugars (like lactose) are not fermentable by brewers yeast. So, adding honey and/or sucrose will cause a drier beer, as it will ferment out 100%, leaving no residual sweetness behind. But adding lactose will cause a sweeter beer as it is not fermentable.

Does that make sense? All "sugars" are not created equal. Simple sugars, like honey and sugar, and those created by mashing at a lower temp mash, will be more fermentable. Long-chained sugars from mashing at a higher temperature will be less fermentable, while milk sugar (lactose) isn't fermentable. So that changes the finish, the body, the sweetness level, and the FG of the beer.

Yooper said:

Yes, and no.

Mashing at a higher temperature creates more long-chained sugars, which are less fermentable by brewers yeast. That translate to a fuller mouthfeel, and more body, and a bit of sweetness in the finish due to a higher FG.

Adding sugars may or may not cause a "sweeter beer", because some sugars are 100% fermentable while some sugars (like lactose) are not fermentable by brewers yeast. So, adding honey and/or sucrose will cause a drier beer, as it will ferment out 100%, leaving no residual sweetness behind. But adding lactose will cause a sweeter beer as it is not fermentable.

Does that make sense? All "sugars" are not created equal. Simple sugars, like honey and sugar, and those created by mashing at a lower temp mash, will be more fermentable. Long-chained sugars from mashing at a higher temperature will be less fermentable, while milk sugar (lactose) isn't fermentable. So that changes the finish, the body, the sweetness level, and the FG of the beer.

Click to expand...

Anyone else feel like this deserves a "Sticky" for being maybe the clearest, most concise explanation of the topic? If not a sticky, there should be a short-cut so we can put this effortlessly in all the posts where people are confused!

Thanks again, Yooper, for all you do for good beer!

I agree this clears it up better for me .. thanks again.