Parti-gyle time: recipe critique and math help

So, I've decided to try my hand at parti-gyle. I like that it is an historical technique, and it works out well for me, since I like to have a wide variety of beer on hand. I'm not 100% sure on the math--I've done the best I can based on Mosher's Radical Brewing and the wiki article here on Homebrewtalk. The idea is to produce 2.5 gallons of a barleywine-strength Marris Otter-East Kent Goldings SMASH (Mosher's recipe for Dragon's Milk) and 5 gallons of an ESB.

Combined mash:

17 lbs. Marris Otter
Mash @ 154

First runnings - Dragon's Milk (enough for 2.5 gallons of strong beer):

Boil 90 minutes
1.5 oz. EKG @ 90 min
0.75 oz. EKG @ 30 min
0.75 oz. EKG @ 1 min

OG 1.090
IBU 68.5
Color 7 SRM

Second runnings - ESB (enough for 5 gallons of regular beer):

Cap with:
0.5 lb. Aromatic malt
0.25 lb. medium crystal (60)
0.25 lb. dark crystal (120)

Boil for 60 minutes
1.5 oz. Willamette @ 60 min
0.5 oz. EKG @ 15 min
0.5 oz. EKG @ 1 min

OG 1.050
IBU 32.5
Color 10 SRM

So, that's what I've got. Could anyone please 1) check my math, 2) suggest any tweaks to the grain and/or hop bills, and 3) suggest a good yeast(s) to use for this project.

Thanks for the help!

THe first bit of math is to find your total intended preboil gavity points, thusly:
2.5*90=225
5*50=250
225+250=475
475/36 (potential gravity points for MO)/ .7(efficiency)= 18.84lbs

I did a PG with 25lbs grain and got 3 gallons @1.1OG and 5.5 gallons @1.050OG

Thanks for the reply. I don't quite follow what you are saying. Do you mean that I should use 18.84 lbs. of base malt in order to get the gravities I want? Also, it seems to me that you did not take into account capping--the second beer is 1.045 with just base malt and 1.050 after capping. Of course, I could have just totally misunderstood.

I'm satisfied with whatever the gravities happen to be, so long as beer #1 is in the 1.080s or 1.090s and beer #2 is some sort of bitter (ordinary, best, or ESB). I calculated the above numbers based on 70% efficiency. So, if someone could just tweak my recipe to fall within that range, I would be very pleased.

Also, does anyone have any suggestions for the malt/hops and the yeast?

Accounting for the added malts, its closer to 17.86lbs base malt in order to get the gravities, but that's using the 70%eff northernlad used. Adjust according to your efficiency.
Personally, I like abbey yeasts for big beers, but notty, windsor or S-04 would work for either brews too if you want to keep it English.

chemnitz said:

I'm satisfied with whatever the gravities happen to be, so long as beer #1 is in the 1.080s or 1.090s and beer #2 is some sort of bitter (ordinary, best, or ESB).

Click to expand...

^^ Welcome to my brewery.

No, I didn't factor in the capping.
Based on my calculations, yes you would use 19lbs of grain.
At the end of the day all you are looking to do is have enough gravity to make the two beers that you want. General rule of thumb is that 2/3 of your gravity is collected in the first runnings. The rest of the runnings make up the second. So, if you combine your two target gravities and volumes, you will know how much grain to mash, using the math above. << Shout out to Designing Great Beers.
Just be prepared to adjust your hops on the fly if your gravity is dramatically different.

Use an Engish yeast with both.

My Pale Ale ended up a little dry and without much character. I plan to partigyle again so let us know how the capping went.

I did one partigyle that went really well awhile back and BrewSmith helped me a ton with the numbers. There is a really great thread around titled something like "Time to Partyyyy(gyle) but I can't find it where he explains how to use the software.

I'm curious about your technique beyond the first runnings especially concerning temperature. I'm assuming for the 1st runnings you'll add water to mash at 150-156 as normal, but what about the second runnings do you consider these to be sparges held at 170 or another mash held at standard mash temperatures. Also do you have 3 water additions total?

Veinman said:

I'm curious about your technique beyond the first runnings especially concerning temperature. I'm assuming for the 1st runnings you'll add water to mash at 150-156 as normal, but what about the second runnings do you consider these to be sparges held at 170 or another mash held at standard mash temperatures. Also do you have 3 water additions total?

Click to expand...

As I understand it, I will mash (@154) to get my first runnings, but then I will sparge (@170) in two batches to get my second and third runnings (which will combine for the second beer). So, yes, there will be 3 water additions. Please correct me if I have misunderstood the technique!

You will collect first runnings from the mash for your high gravity beer. If you are batch sparging, sparge with half of your second beer's intended volume, collect second runnings, sparge with second half of your target volume, then collect third runnings.

Well, the brew day was today, and it was pretty successful. I used 19 lbs. of Maris Otter plus capping. My efficiency was higher than expected, and so I ended up with quite a bit of strong beer. My barleywine has an OG of 1.098, and 3 gallons went into the primary. If my attenuation is as high as I expect, I could get 10% ABV out of it. The smaller beer came out to be a Best Bitter with an OG of 1.045, and there are 6 gallons of it. That sounds great to me.

On a side note, 9 gallons in one day is my new personal record for most beer produced at once. It was definitely the most ambitious brew day for me to date.

I have a question. How do you "cap" a mash? Do you just add the extra crushed grains after your first runnings to the mash tun?

smakudwn said:

I have a question. How do you "cap" a mash? Do you just add the extra crushed grains after your first runnings to the mash tun?

Click to expand...

Yes. Of course if you're capping you now have to hold that like a normal mash for 60 minutes (or less of course different debate) at the same temperature as your recipe calls for.

Of course if you're capping you now have to hold that like a normal mash for 60 minutes (or less of course different debate) at the same temperature as your recipe calls for.

Click to expand...

Why? Usually you cap with specialty grains. Who cares to wait another hour to get conversion from (at the most) a lb of dark or caramel grains? Not to mention that conversion would probably be acheived within 15 min or so.

BenS said:

Why? Usually you cap with specialty grains. Who cares to wait another hour to get conversion from (at the most) a lb of dark or caramel grains? Not to mention that conversion would probably be acheived within 15 min or so.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Sorry I should have clarified that as well, I've seen recipes that do cap with more base grain where they need to convert. Also as I said length of time required to convert is a whole different debate.

I just bottled the smaller ale today. It finished at 1.010, and the sample tasted good though a little bland. However, it will probably be fine after bottle conditioning.

I also took the first gravity sample of the barleywine. After 13 days, the yeast tore through it, dropping the gravity from 1.098 to 1.020 (ABV of 10.2%!!). That's almost 80% attenuation, and it may drop a couple more points yet. I guess two packs of S-04 in a 2.5 gallon batch is pretty powerful. I'll let this one sit in primary for a couple more weeks. The sample hinted at something special. It was thick, complex, and very rough around the edges. You would swear that there were a few specialty malts in it, proving that you don't need a complicated recipe to make a complex beer. After 9 to 12 months, it should be a real treat.