To all the extract haters

Yakima 728
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I'm a grain brewer who has come to the defense again and again of extract brewing, saying "it's not about how you choose to make wort". Well, I decided to brew a Brewer's Best Robust Porter kit, as is, to test it. This was my first extract brew in two plus years. Never again. The wort tasted, immediately, like burnt caramel (no, I didn't scorch it on the kettle bottom). The FG was high at 1.018 (fermentability of extracts is notoriously inconsistent). Going into the bottle it tasted okay but wouldn't make me proud. So, I gave it a shot. I won't do it again. It was no fun and it produced a mediocre beer. With all due respect, YMMV, with no intent to offend, just my experience, et cet, et cet. You can have it.
 
Buying bulk grain has paid for my mill twice in the last year (and that's at grain price savings not extract) and the 50+ batches of AG over the past 2 years has probably covered the $60 my mash tun cost. All grain specific equipment doesn't have to be all that expensive unless you want it to be.
 
ryno84 said:
I think a lot of AG posters never calculate the cost of the equipment when they say it is so much cheaper. I think you would have to capitalize that cost into each brew and then see how many brews it takes to break even. I wonder if anyone has done that?
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As previously mentioned, there are a number of valid reasons for not doing all-grain, but I don't believe cost necessarily needs to be one of them. One could do BIAB and all it would take is a larger kettle, possibly a $50 propane burner (if your kitchen range doesn't have the suds for 7 gal boils), and a $10 bag. Sure you can spend a lot more, but it's not really necessary. Your beer is just as good as somebody's who running a full 3-tier system when all is said and done and the equipment doesn't really take up very much more space than an extract setup.

When I first got into this hobby and was deciding which way to go, I decided to start with all-grain because it was going to cost me only a little more in the beginning to get set up and I knew I'd want to make the jump after a few batches anyway, so why not just do it from the start?

In the end, it all comes down to what works for you and your situation. Both make great beer and that's really all that matters.
 
i switched to AG and love it. Having said that, my best friend brews with extract and I always help him out on brew day because he is a new brewer and somewhat forgetful/laid back, so I help keep the brew day running smoothly haha. I do enjoy doing an extract batch every once in a while for the ease and convience of it, as long as I don't have to pay for the ingredients :p
 
I started out making Extract beers and they where ok but nothing to write home about. I Live in an apartment so All grain is out for me. I went Partial mash 6 brew back and I love it. My beers improved so much from just extract. Now I just Mash 4-6lbs of grain and add some DME. Sure the brew day takes a fair bit longer, but the pros far out weigh the cons. To Extact brewers who cant/dont want go all grain I suggest doing a Stovetop PM https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/ I now have a mash tun(which makes it much better)but this is a good way to get into PM brewing
 
sweetcell said:
For me, partial mash and "full" all-grain mash are identical save for one detail: the partial mash brewer will be using extract once the mash is done to achieve OG.
Click to expand...

That's one way to look at it... But I would say this is more like All-Grain brewing with last minute gravity corrections from Extract, i.e. 80% All Grain / 20% Extract.

Another way to look at Partial Mash is 50% All Grain / 50% Extract... or 60/40 - 40/60. It's really up to the brewer.
 
regarding attenuation, i hit 1.007 with my last partial mash batch. this was almost 90%. with plain old wyeast 1056 fermented under 65 degrees. had about 4 lbs liquid extract, most added post-boil
 
ryno84 said:
Hey, don't get me wrong, I spend a portion of my day looking at items I would like to get. Like I said before, I would like to go AG or BIAB. I've been "shopping" for said items for about a month now.

I don't really look at brewing as saving a bunch of money. That's just what I tell the SWMBO. Its a hobby. And hobbies tend to be expensive.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. Sure it saves money in the long run, even when doing extract kits. But that's if you overlook a few facts. Like that I dropped $200 to get it all started (everything included). Or that I wouldn't usually drink four cases of beer in a normal month. Heck, when we drank beer before this, it was stuff like PBR and Miller Lite.

So I'm definitely saving over my craft beer obsession, but it definitely is something I'm spending more on because I love the hobby.
 
For everyone talking about how expensive malt extract is, can you give me some rough numbers? I generally brew a 5 gallon batch of 5-6% ABV beer for $20-30, including hops and yeast, using LME. I'm just getting into all grain but because of time constraints will probably continue to use extract 75% of the time. I go to a local brew shop so I don't include gas to get there or anything in my costs - so don't include shipping if you're ordering from an online retailer... Just curious what people in other parts of the country are paying.
 
passedpawn said:
To the OP:

If you had the equipment (i.e., mash tun) and space and extra time to brew all-grain, would you?
Click to expand...

Yes I would, and will. But it's mostly because I really dig the process and look forward to having more control on the little things when I start making my own recipes. It's going to be Some time before I can afford to do it. I hope to try some BIAB sometime soon. The first time I smelled the mash, I was interested in moving to all grain.

I didn't really intend to start another extract v all grain thread. I apologize for that. I probably should have worded the thread title differently. I more or less wanted to encourage all the people out there that cannot move to all grain, that you can make fantastic beer. Also, that just because u use extract doesn't make your beer bad. I was trying to simply contribute my own testimony to support great beers can be made with extract.
 
pohldogg said:
Buying bulk grain has paid for my mill twice in the last year (and that's at grain price savings not extract) and the 50+ batches of AG over the past 2 years has probably covered the $60 my mash tun cost. All grain specific equipment doesn't have to be all that expensive unless you want it to be.
Click to expand...

I agree. Mashing (especially infusion mashing) is a fairly simple process, and many homebrewers unnecessarily complicate that process.

That doesn't mean they're doing something wrong. They're still making beer, and having fun while doing so. And that's all that matters.

The same goes for extract brewers. If they're happy with the process and the resulting beers, then more power to them.
 
Pilgarlic said:
I'm a grain brewer who has come to the defense again and again of extract brewing, saying "it's not about how you choose to make wort". Well, I decided to brew a Brewer's Best Robust Porter kit, as is, to test it. This was my first extract brew in two plus years. Never again. The wort tasted, immediately, like burnt caramel (no, I didn't scorch it on the kettle bottom). The FG was high at 1.018 (fermentability of extracts is notoriously inconsistent). Going into the bottle it tasted okay but wouldn't make me proud. So, I gave it a shot. I won't do it again. It was no fun and it produced a mediocre beer. With all due respect, YMMV, with no intent to offend, just my experience, et cet, et cet. You can have it.
Click to expand...

I have heard some bad reviews of brewers best. I will say that with extract, the freshness is absolutely critical for making it great. That's why while I'm brewing extract, I'm buying from places like NB.
 
tonyc318 said:
I have heard some bad reviews of brewers best. I will say that with extract, the freshness is absolutely critical for making it great. That's why while I'm brewing extract, I'm buying from places like NB.
Click to expand...

I agree. I think using Brewers Best as a baseline for extract brewing is completely misrepresenting things.
 
All Grain for a while, but our first brew was a can from the LHBS, It was a Cooper's Mild Ale and Kelly (LHBS guy) suggested fresh yeast. It was beyond excellent and I do not think I will ever have a beer as good as that. We make very good All Grain beer, but our very own first brew will always be #1 with us!
 
fastenova said:
For everyone talking about how expensive malt extract is, can you give me some rough numbers? I generally brew a 5 gallon batch of 5-6% ABV beer for $20-30, including hops and yeast, using LME. I'm just getting into all grain but because of time constraints will probably continue to use extract 75% of the time. I go to a local brew shop so I don't include gas to get there or anything in my costs - so don't include shipping if you're ordering from an online retailer... Just curious what people in other parts of the country are paying.
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Dry malt extract was $12 for three pounds, the last time I checked. A typical recipe uses two of those 3-pound bags. Specialty grains are maybe $1.75/pound. So, for a simple beer, with 1 pound crystal malt and 6 pounds DME, that would be $25.75 for the grainbill.

Rahr two row is $35 for 50 pounds. Specialty grains would be the same, as would the hops and yeast. So, using 10 pounds of grain (instead of 6 pounds of DME) would be $7 instead of $24 for the base malt.
 
tonyc318 said:
I have heard some bad reviews of brewers best. I will say that with extract, the freshness is absolutely critical for making it great. That's why while I'm brewing extract, I'm buying from places like NB.
Click to expand...

I agree. Brewers Best kits often use canned extract. If those kits have been sitting on a shelf at your LHBS for a long time, then it's pretty likely that the beer you brew from it is going to taste bad.

To make a fair evaluation you need to be sure that your extract is fresh.

NB kits are excellent. I've brewed their Irish Red, and a friend of mine has brewed their hefe, wee heavy, and Black IPA extract kits. All of them came out nice.
 
Yooper said:
Rahr two row is $35 for 50 pounds. Specialty grains would be the same, as would the hops and yeast. So, using 10 pounds of grain (instead of 6 pounds of DME) would be $7 instead of $24 for the base malt.
Click to expand...

and even if you don't get the base grain in bulk, you should be under 15 dollars for the 10 lbs of base grain.
 
Yooper said:
Dry malt extract was $12 for three pounds, the last time I checked. A typical recipe uses two of those 3-pound bags. Specialty grains are maybe $1.75/pound. So, for a simple beer, with 1 pound crystal malt and 6 pounds DME, that would be $25.75 for the grainbill.

Rahr two row is $35 for 50 pounds. Specialty grains would be the same, as would the hops and yeast. So, using 10 pounds of grain (instead of 6 pounds of DME) would be $7 instead of $24 for the base malt.
Click to expand...

That is a little misleading. Many recipes I see use LME as a base and DME to adjust the gravity. $16 for the LME and another $4 for the DME. Still more than all-grain but not quite that much. If you buy DME in bulk you can get 50lb for about $120 which would take it down to $14. $7 vs $14 vs $20. Depending on the beer, the grain portion may be only about half the cost in an extract brew. I am not going to say $7 is small savings especially if you brew a lot(heck I fill jugs of water at my dad's house because he has well water $6 in savings per batch).
 
logan3825 said:
I agree. I think using Brewers Best as a baseline for extract brewing is completely misrepresenting things.
Click to expand...

Why would that be? BB uses Briess, and I bought it from a very high volume outlet. Are you saying there's a problem with Briess?
 
Homercidal said:
I'd love to do some extract brewing for when I'm pressed for time.

And then I price it out... :(
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that the startup costs of going all grain are hard to recoup unless you're brewing a ton of beer for many years. I see AG kits that are only a couple bucks cheaper than their extract counterparts. Maybe i'm missing something?
 
RiffMagnum said:
I was under the impression that the startup costs of going all grain are hard to recoup unless you're brewing a ton of beer for many years. I see AG kits that are only a couple bucks cheaper than their extract counterparts. Maybe i'm missing something?
Click to expand...

"kits" are always a ripoff. Buy grain and hops in bulk, and start off with a cooler mash tun for $80 or less and you're in business.
 
bottlebomber said:
"kits" are always a ripoff. Buy grain and hops in bulk, and start off with a cooler mash tun for $80 or less and you're in business.
Click to expand...

I like to drink. I drink alot, but buying in "bulk" sounds like i wouldn't be able to keep up with my batches or the ingredients would get stale before i could get to them. Also, if you're buying in bulk doesn't that limit the variety of brews you can make with those ingredients? Hefes are my favorite style, so i guess i could buy those ingredients in bulk, since i know i'd consume them.
 
Pilgarlic said:
Why would that be? BB uses Briess, and I bought it from a very high volume outlet. Are you saying there's a problem with Briess?
Click to expand...

I agree there. I've only ever used BB kits, it's all my LHBS carries. I don't know if it's a BB thing, or my LHBS, but they include both Briess and Muntons, depending on the kit. As well as specialty grains and DME.

Once I go to PartialMash, I plan on using my own recipes. So I wouldn't imagine that buying kits would even be worth it.

@RuffMagnum I've had that question myself. I know that some things like the base, 2 Row, Marris Otter etc. You'll be able to use for many recipes. Keeping hops and yeast sounds like a hassle to me anyway.
 
RiffMagnum said:
I was under the impression that the startup costs of going all grain are hard to recoup unless you're brewing a ton of beer for many years. I see AG kits that are only a couple bucks cheaper than their extract counterparts. Maybe i'm missing something?
Click to expand...

Only a couple bucks? Can't speak to where you're looking, but just did a quick search on Austin Homebrew. Rogue dead guy clone is 11.50 cheaper for AG. Stone Ruination clone is 13 less. AHS amber Bock is 7.50 cheaper for AG.

I made my mash tun for 70-80, I'm sure it could be done cheaper. Or you can do brew-in-a-bag with only a few dollars of investment if you already have a big kettle. Obviously if you have to buy a kettle, cost goes up.

So it certainly shouldn't take many years to recoup the investment.
 
RiffMagnum said:
I like to drink. I drink alot, but buying in "bulk" sounds like i wouldn't be able to keep up with my batches or the ingredients would get stale before i could get to them. Also, if you're buying in bulk doesn't that limit the variety of brews you can make with those ingredients? Hefes are my favorite style, so i guess i could buy those ingredients in bulk, since i know i'd consume them.
Click to expand...

Well if you're only brewing a few times a year then that could be an issue. However, malts last a year minimum, but up to 3 if stored properly, and hops last an easy 2 in the freezer. As an all grain brewer though you really are only looking at buying 2 base malts that represents most of your style needs. Like wheats? Get a sack of white wheat malt, and a sack of 2-row. Like Belgians too? Get pilsner instead of 2 row. Etc etc. There is definitely an art to forecasting what you're going to need and keeping it around. I'm still honing that skill myself.
 
CrookedTail said:
Yep. I've seen recipes with the same amount of grains, but all Amber LME. Then they get a funky flavored beer and say it's extract twang. :rolleyes:

Use three pounds of crystal malt in an all grain beer, and it will taste just as bad.

It drives me nuts.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with this. Seeing these recipes jammed with unfermentables is bad enough for styles that should probably finish dry, but when you can't control mash temps, that's a syrupy sweet "extract twang" mess.

Extract beers, especially those that should finish dry, NEED sugar. Not half the malt bill, but 5-10% does wonders to dry out extract beers.

In summation, a full wort boil with late extract addition, some simple sugar (when needed for style/dryness) all topped off with temp control, will make damn fine beer at a minimum of time cost. Sure it's not cheaper, but for some of us, at least me anyway, brewing at the rate I do, I have to offset 5 hour AG days with a few 2 hour extract brews here and there. And if I pick styles better suited to extract brewing, I don't miss out on anything.... Including my family.

Rant off.
 
logan3825 said:
That is a little misleading. Many recipes I see use LME as a base and DME to adjust the gravity. $16 for the LME and another $4 for the DME. Still more than all-grain but not quite that much. If you buy DME in bulk you can get 50lb for about $120 which would take it down to $14. $7 vs $14 vs $20. Depending on the beer, the grain portion may be only about half the cost in an extract brew. I am not going to say $7 is small savings especially if you brew a lot(heck I fill jugs of water at my dad's house because he has well water $6 in savings per batch).[/QUOTE

For around 36 ppg you need about
1 lbs lme at $3.03/lb NB price
.75 lbs dme at $3.83/lb NB price
1.25 lbs 2 row at $1.20/lb local price ($.75/lb bulk price)


Hops, yeast, and specialty malts will be the same between any of the batches so extract is anywhere between 2 and 4 times as expensive for the fermentables as all grain depending on how you buy it.
Click to expand...
 
BrewKnurd said:
Only a couple bucks? Can't speak to where you're looking, but just did a quick search on Austin Homebrew. Rogue dead guy clone is 11.50 cheaper for AG. Stone Ruination clone is 13 less. AHS amber Bock is 7.50 cheaper for AG.

I made my mash tun for 70-80, I'm sure it could be done cheaper. Or you can do brew-in-a-bag with only a few dollars of investment if you already have a big kettle. Obviously if you have to buy a kettle, cost goes up.

So it certainly shouldn't take many years to recoup the investment.
Click to expand...


Yeah, i'm smoking crack. I see most of the AG kits are around 7-9 bux cheaper than extract now that i look back over it.
Still, i don't see myself switching till i've tried every style i wanna do with extract. Then i might get bored with it and wanna mix it up. Right now i think i'd be satisfied with learning how to reuse yeast for my favorite styles. That would be a step in the right direction money wise.
 
bottlebomber said:
Well if you're only brewing a few times a year then that could be an issue. However, malts last a year minimum, but up to 3 if stored properly, and hops last an easy 2 in the freezer. As an all grain brewer though you really are only looking at buying 2 base malts that represents most of your style needs. Like wheats? Get a sack of white wheat malt, and a sack of 2-row. Like Belgians too? Get pilsner instead of 2 row. Etc etc. There is definitely an art to forecasting what you're going to need and keeping it around. I'm still honing that skill myself.
Click to expand...

Just dedicate a closet and buy them all. No need to forecast then. It's not as far-fetched as it seems. Go big.
 
RiffMagnum said:
I like to drink. I drink alot, but buying in "bulk" sounds like i wouldn't be able to keep up with my batches or the ingredients would get stale before i could get to them. Also, if you're buying in bulk doesn't that limit the variety of brews you can make with those ingredients? Hefes are my favorite style, so i guess i could buy those ingredients in bulk, since i know i'd consume them.
Click to expand...

The main cost savings is in buying your base malts in bulk. For instance, I have bulk quantities of Gambrinus Pale Malt, Wheat Malt, and Munich Malt right now. As noted above, stored properly, they'll keep for a year or more. I've bought Pilsen in bulk before, as well as Breiss two-row. And I've bought caramel malts in bulk and split them with fellow brewers.

As for variety using bulk grains, in the past few months, I've brewed a Wee Heavy, an American Amber, an American IPA, an APA, an Ordinary Bitter, a Sweet Stout, a Belgian Witbier and a Cream Stout.
 
Pappers_ said:
The main cost savings is in buying your base malts in bulk. For instance, I have bulk quantities of Gambrinus Pale Malt, Wheat Malt, and Munich Malt right now. As noted above, stored properly, they'll keep for a year or more. I've bought Pilsen in bulk before, as well as Breiss two-row. And I've bought caramel malts in bulk and split them with fellow brewers.

As for variety using bulk grains, in the past few months, I've brewed a Wee Heavy, an American Amber, an American IPA, an APA, an Ordinary Bitter, a Sweet Stout, a Belgian Witbier and a Cream Stout.
Click to expand...

Plus I think it is fun to have 2-5 pounds of specialty grains on hand. I have 8 different kinds on hand at most times. And the 50 lb bags of base malts will make 4-5 5 gallon batches. That isn't that much.
 
ryno84 said:
Also, on a side note, I find it curious that every hobby I have gotten into always seem to have two groups arguing over supremacy (or elitism, whatever you want to call it). I am especially reminded of it in paintball. Just an observation.
Click to expand...

+1
This kind of thread is irritating.
I got into this hobby because I like beer and was curious if I could make my own and if it would be drinkable. I can and it is. It's more than drinkable.
I am an extract brewer and I make good beer. My friends and family like it. It's fun.
This board has been a wealth of information and fun for me for nearly a year. And I joined and gave money in thanks of that. Y'all are great.
But Ryno is right. The extract v. all grain issue, more often than not, stinks of a ridiculous "Unzip and let's measure" debate.
 
doublebogey10 said:
+1
This kind of thread is irritating.
I got into this hobby because I like beer and was curious if I could make my own and if it would be drinkable. I can and it is. It's more than drinkable.
I am an extract brewer and I make good beer. My friends and family like it. It's fun.
This board has been a wealth of information and fun for me for nearly a year. And I joined and gave money in thanks of that. Y'all are great.
But Ryno is right. The extract v. all grain issue, more often than not, stinks of a ridiculous "Unzip and let's measure" debate.
Click to expand...

I agree with u. My intention was not to start that here. My bad for the terrible thread title. I also didn't intend for this thread to have anything to do with the cost analysis of extract v AG either. Just trying to testify to the fact that extract can make dang great beer. I even plan to do AG at some point. Just saving my pennies. I think we can all agree that there are pros and cons to both and it comes down to do what u want and can, and make the best possible beer you can with what u do.

I was just rather excited that my AG brewing friend with 40 years brewing experience gave high praise to my extract kit beer.
 
doublebogey10 said:
This kind of thread is irritating.
Click to expand...

Which part is irritating? The thread title is provocative and an invitation to argument (which thankfully never happened). I see only dispassionate discussion.

Truth is, AG is better. It makes equal beer to extract if you know what you are doing, and better beer for many/most styles. The brewer has far more control of the final beer, and there is a significant cost savings if that is important.

The trade-off is it takes more equipment, more know-how, more time, and more space. Understandably that's not worth it to many. I completely understand that, and I'd say that 99.9% of AG brewers do too.

I think the inferiority complex is unwarranted and annoying.
 
passedpawn said:
Which part is irritating? The thread title is provocative and an invitation to argument (which thankfully never happened). I see only dispassionate discussion.

Truth is, AG is better. It makes equal beer to extract if you know what you are doing, and better beer for many/most styles. The brewer has far more control of the final beer, and there is a significant cost savings if that is important.

The trade-off is it takes more equipment, more know-how, more time, and more space. Understandably that's not worth it to many. I completely understand that, and I'd say that 99.9% of AG brewers do too.

I think the inferiority complex is unwarranted and annoying.
Click to expand...

Said the "Huge Member"
 
You guys have all said it. This issue has been talked about again & again.

I'm a big picture kind of guy. Keep it simple. Seat of my pants experience says it all for me.

I've brewed 2 kit brews from my LHBS using a liquid extract and brewed 5 all grain brews using recipes gleaned from HBT. It could be the all grain, it could be HBT, it could be the recipe, all I know is the 5 beers all tasted better.

The difference in equipment is a $50 DIY Lauder tun.

That's enough for me. I've found what works & I'm sticking to it! :tank:
 
ryno84 said:
Also, on a side note, I find it curious that every hobby I have gotten into always seem to have two groups arguing over supremacy (or elitism, whatever you want to call it). I am especially reminded of it in paintball. Just an observation.
Click to expand...

I've only been a member for a week or even less and have picked up the "two groups"

What's funny is we even have them in the BBQ forums.

Sauce vs. No Sauce
Foil vs No Foil

But at the end of the day we all enjoy BBQ'ng and I suspect all here enjoy making and drinking their cold ones.

As for myself, I'll extract until I get it down right. If I have enough time, space, and resources I may venture into all-grain because I like to try and master everything. If not master, at least have a good understanding of the various methods.
 
With the title of this thread, no one should be surprised that people came into the thread to defend AG. Personally, I could not care less whether people brew with extract, steeped grains, partial mash or all grain. I have made good beer with extract and all grain. I enjoyed extract brewing, but I enjoy all grain a lot more.

tonyc318 said:
I Have recently come to know a guy that has been home brewing for 40 years now.
Click to expand...

If your friend was homebrewing 40 years, ago he probably wasn't doing it legally. It wasn't until October 1978 that homebrewing beer over .5% and not paying excise taxes on it became legal under federal law.
 
DirtyOldDuck said:
If your friend was homebrewing 40 years, ago he probably wasn't doing it legally. It wasn't until October 1978 that homebrewing beer over .5% and not paying excise taxes on it became legal under federal law.
Click to expand...

There more I get to know the guy, there more it would not surprise me that he was doing it illegally at one point haha! Last time we brewed, he said it was his 40th year this year.
 
passedpawn said:
Just dedicate a closet and buy them all. No need to forecast then. It's not as far-fetched as it seems. Go big.
Click to expand...

Wanna split a sack of Rauchmalt? ;)
 

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