modenacart
Well-Known Member
I was reading "The New Lager brewing" book and it talks about douging in at about room temperature and then raising to the rest temperatures you want. Is it really better to brew this way?
Doughing in at about room temperature
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It's better to brew that way with undermodified malts. For example, if you happen to find some true Bohemian pilsner malt (Weyermann is a possible source), it may be better to step mash in the manner you suggest. For most malts sold today, the method is a waste of time and perhaps even counterproductive.
It's better to brew that way with undermodified malts. For example, if you happen to find some true Bohemian pilsner malt (Weyermann is a possible source), it may be better to step mash in the manner you suggest. For most malts sold today, the method is a waste of time and perhaps even counterproductive.
Ive never seen the need to dough-in at room temp, but I like to use a protein rest (122f) for dough-in. it offers a few benefits: one if you miss the temp there's no risk of destroying the really important enzymes, two I never get dough balls at that temp, and three I find it helps with the clarity of my finished beer. the drawback with this method it that it takes more hot water to raise the temp to saccarification temps and this makes a much thinner mash and requires a bigger vessel to hold it, it can also take a lot of direct heat and stirring if you use a direct fired mash-tun.
Baron von BeeGee
Beer Bully
I've done it a couple of times. It helps getting the grains hydrated and I saw a marginal increase in efficiency, but most people wouldn't consider that worth their time. I was using a "less" modified malt (the Breiss), but not undermodified.
However, I do see a benefit to an acid rest, and not just a protein rest, for German wheat beers where you want a lot of phenolic character.
However, I do see a benefit to an acid rest, and not just a protein rest, for German wheat beers where you want a lot of phenolic character.
modenacart
Well-Known Member
I have consider doing acid rest anyway because if I don't do anything to my water, my mash ph will be about 6.25 at temperature. I was brewing a stout with 14% roasted grains at it was still over 6.0. I had to add over 8 oz of acid malt to get it to about 5.3 or so and this was at mash temperature. Needless to say, I have a water quality problem here.
Piotr
Well-Known Member
I tried this with my Witbier, but after one hour of acid rest I did'n notice any change in pH. Maybe I should have left it in water all night.
Sauermalz or lactic acid are better solution.
Piotr
Well-Known Member
You mean, all Wayerman pils malts are undermodified, or only the one called Bohemian? :
http://www.weyermann.de/ger/produkte.asp?idkat=1&umenue=yes&idmenue=2&sprache=1
Only the Bohemian.
Baron von BeeGee
Beer Bully
No offense, but I can't even drink the water from the tap New Bern and east
I doubt I'd use it for brewing...probably just spring for bottled water.modenacart
Well-Known Member
Water is not bad to drink if its filtered unless you are right on the coast, Morehead city. I think all the acid malt caused my yeast to stop too soon. My FG was 1.022. Needless to say I am not happy about it. However the flavor of the stout is pretty good.
sorta off topic...have you tried using pH 5.2?
With a well-modified malt you can dough-in at 131 ~1 qt/lb for a short protein rest, then infuse with ~1/2 qt/lb near boiling to get to the 150s for your sacc rest. It is not recommended to do an acid rest with well-modified malt; doughing in and heating from room temp would move the malt through the acid rest range, which would degrade the malt.
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
No. The Bohemian is as modified as all the other malts. I still have to see an avarage analysis sheet for it. But I have been working with it for a while now and there doesn't seem to be a need for a dough-in below 140F.
I was hoping that this malt would be less modified.
Kai
Piotr
Well-Known Member
Let us know what you find out.
I'm still looking for somewhat less modified malt, for decoction and protein-rest mashing.
I like doing protein rest, it gives the malt time to hydrate, I have time to work on pH, temperature etc.
I heard rumours that only british and USA malts are really well modified, while the german and belgian are a bit less modified, is it true?
boo boo
Well-Known Member
Not true. Most ALL modern malts are well modified. You will be hard pressed to find undermodified malt anywhere for sale now.
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
Then dough in at 57C (135) for example. High enough for no protein rest and low enough for only little amylase activity. I have seen mash schedules where this rest was called the enzyme rest implying that it is for getting the enzymes ready. I'm using it on occasion.
When it comes to decoction, check out my videos on that. There I mention 2 decoctions that work well with modern malts b/c they allow you to skip the protein rest.
+1 to boo boo. You will have a hard time to find undermodified malt these days. I heard that Briess Pilsner is less modified but I would have to check that. The market of home brewers trying to find malts that work well with intense decoction mash schedules is just to little for a malster to bother making undermodified malts. In Germany they sell Spitzmalz, which is a berely modified malt, but is purpose is to circumvent the purity law's ban on use of unmalted grains. It's technically malt but still has the properties (low SNR, little cell wall break down etc.) of unmalted grain. I can't find it here in the US though.
Edit: Briess Pilsnen malt is listed with an SNR (soluble nitrogen ratio) of 37, which is low enough to warrant a protein rest. Noonan wrote that anything below 38 benefits from a protein rest. In comparison, most of the Weyermann malts (including the PIlsner and especially the Munich malts) have a SNR that is 40 and above.
Kai
korndog
Well-Known Member
I brewed a Czech. Pils with the Wyermann. Here are the specs. I received when I was researching. Searched high and low for the Briess Anniversary, but couldn't find it.
Hmm. Attachment didn't attach. Here's text version.
BOHEMIAN PILSNER MALT
Raw Material Source:
Czech-grown two-row spring barley HANKA (2006 harvest)
Product Characteristics:
Processed specifically for Bohemian characteristics to impart a full body, golden-blond
color, and complex maltiness to the finished brew
Recommended Quantities:
Up to 100% of total grain bill
Suitability (beer styles):
All lagers (especially Pils/Pilsner/Pilsener) as well as low-alcohol, light, and Belgian ales
and lagers
Parameter MIN MAX Unit
Moisture content 5.0 %
Extract (dry basis) 80 %
Wort color 3.0 4.0 EBC
Wort color 1.7 2.1 Lovibond
Boiled wort color 4.0 6.0 EBC
Boiled wort color 2.1 2.8 Lovibond
Protein (dry substance) 9.5 10.8 %
Protein modification 38.0 42.0 %
Hartong index (VZ 45°C) 38.0 44.0 %
Saccharification time 20 min
Final attenuation 81 %
Viscosity (8.6%) 1.59 m Pa s
Friability 84.0 %
Glassiness 2.0 %
Shipping units 25-kg (55-lb.) bag, 1,000-kg pallet (bagged), 1,000-kg BigBag, bulk
Shelf life 12 months (under dry storage conditions)
NOTES: We do not use genetically modified raw materials in any of our malts and extracts. All our malts and extracts
meet the strict requirements of the German Beer Purity Law. All our processes are certified in accordance with DIN-ISO
9001-2000. All our malts and extracts are made in accordance with the requirements of all applicable government food-
and health regulations, including HACCP (Hazard Analyses of Critical Control Points). All our malts and extracts have less
than the maximum allowable amounts of trace elements from pesticides, herbicides, mycotoxins, and nitrosamines. All
analyses are carried out by independent, certified laboratories, according to Brautechnische Analysenmethoden
(Methods of Brew-Technical Analyses), MEBAK Book I-4.1/2. All specifications are subject to change based on harvest
season. Specifications last updated on October 10, 2006
Piotr
Well-Known Member
Thank you, this is a very good idea!
Still, if I heat it at normal rate 1*C/minute, it will take me ~10 minutes to reach 68*C, half of the conversion can be done in that time. I will have to combine flame heating with hot water addition, that way I should be able to shorten that time to 3-5 minutes.
Piotr
Well-Known Member
This is the Kolbach index (S/T ratio), I suppose? Fix writes, that below 40% you can do protein rest, above not. So these numbers (38 to 42) are not precise enough to be useful...
Can I find specs for other weyermann malts?
Edit: I've found them at LHBS, all of them have only a range of values i.e. 37 to 46 % (vienna)...
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
That's my problem with Weyermann and why I'm starting to go to another maltster. They only give average analysis numbers on the web. They can't give me lot analysis data b/c I order less than a ton (literally metric ton) from them. My distributer (Crosby Baker) doesn't have them either. Argh.
North country malt ships lot analysis data with their bags of Best Malz (and others).
Piotr,
What's the problem with getting conversion while heating up? You will not be able to use the same temps and times that others are using for their single infusion mashes, but as long as your results are predictable that is fine. Every brewer has to learn his/her system anyway.
I use hot water infusions to move to the first or only saccrification rest.
Kai
modenacart
Well-Known Member
Have not tried it yet. I am thinking of cutting my water amount by 50% with DL water, then add some gypsum to get the Ca in the right range. I tried gypsum before, but I had to add so much that it gave a very harsh bitterness. At lest I got the much more bright aftertaste with my beer after correcting mash pH so I am a believer.
Do they give you all of their averages? If you provided them with the lot number, they wouldn't be able to give you more specfics?
Kaiser
Well-Known Member
I asked them for data for a specific lot number and they said that they can't give me the data unless I order a ton or more.
This seems reasonable, but they should give the info to the distributor which in turn should make it available to me. I wonder how much I should pursue this issue w/ my LHBS and Crosby Baker. I pay $60 for a sack of Weyermann malts at my LHBS. But can get a bag of Bestmalz shipped with analysis data for $50. Since HBS loyalty is rewarded with good hop selection, I'd be willing to keep paying the $60 if they can also give me analysis data for that price.
Kai
