Ugh friends w/kids (sorry long rant)

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the_bird said:
I probably worded that reply too tersely. I just react pretty negatively to the whole "children should be seen, not heard" attitude that's implicit in some of the comments.

Does this mean that she runs wild? Of course not - she gets consequences when she truly misbehaves, but I'm not about to repress her natural enthusiasm. Daddy isn't someone that she's going to learn to fear.
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Agreed ... Furthermore, the comments that it's a parents fault and "they should do something" to stop their kid from being a kid are rather annoying. I'm more than certain that the vast majority of those making those comments or believing that certainly weren't absolute angels at all times while out in public when they were children.

The fact of the matter is that kids 2-6 years old are the same now as they were 10 years ago, 20 years ago and even 30 years ago. I'm sure that all of us, as children (maybe even as adults), are guilty of throwing a fit in the grocery store cause we didn't get Cookie Crisp cereal or yelling at our parents because we didn't want to buy new socks.

Everytime my son starts acting like the 3 year old he is in the store cause he wants to go look at the toy isle and I get dirty looks from 20-something kids, I just glare right back, and if they keep it up, I'll make a note to follow them throughout the store just to annoy them even more. It's my little way of having fun.
 
For those complaining about the kids:

1) Did you run around and act wild as a kid? (probably not right you behaved everywhere you went..............right?)

2) Have your parents told you any stories about how you ran around <insert location> and it was all they could do to catch you and get you under control?

3) Did your parents leave you home everytime they went out or to a friends?

Next time you are getting mad at a kid running and playing think about what you use to do as a child and the fun you had doing it.
 
I figure in 10 more years my boys are going to be heading off to college. I plan to make the most of those ten years, and will figure out how to fill the time after they are gone. Of course I was 39 when the first one was born, so I had kind of done the free-agent adult thing already. Personally, I try not to put parents in situations where they have to make a choice between their kids and me. I will always lose that one.
 
I have two boys, 7 and 4. They are every bit "boy" and every bit their age. You better believe my wife and I have our hands full. I don't like the folks that say to stay home with your kids and all that goofy jazz. You want me to stay home with my kids? To hell with you. Stay home if you don't want to see them. I'm going out, and chances are good that they are coming with me.

However, by the same token, I don't agree with the "**** off - kids are kids" bit, either. If I am going to bring my kids out with me and the SWMBO, she and I understand the responsibility, and we deal with those kids. We've worked hard to teach them how to behave and we correct them if they don't do so. I've had more than one "discussion" out in the car with one or both of the boys when they act up at the wrong time. When they've behaved well, I let them know that, too, and tell them how proud I am of them. Most of the time, we get the same "well behaved" comments that others have mentioned. Parenting, when parents bother to do it, works.

Yes, I certainly did act like a kid, running around and acting the fool whenever I could. I also had parents that put up with that when it was appropriate and corrected me firmly when it was not. I learned how to behave appropriately to the place where I was. I remember, even back when I was a kid and as I grew up, how poorly behaved some of my friends were because they didn't know the difference between a nicer restaurant and the school playground and that certain things that are just fine in one place don't fly in another. I also remember how those kids' parents reacted to that behavior. Sometimes, it was "kids will be kids." Sometimes, it was nothing at all. I was shocked about that, even then. Guess what? Nearly every one of those kids grew up to be a certifiable ****up because they still don't know how to behave appropriately. Now, they're having kids, and I sometimes see them raising the ****ups of the future.

So, you folks that can't stand to see kids around, loosen up. Kids are out there, and you just have to deal with that. And, you folks who don't bother teaching your kids how to behave appropriately, get ready for bigger problems down the road.

Oh, and those parents that think their kids $#!+ golden eggs drive me completely up the wall, too. I'll laugh about that comment for a long time. :)


TL
 
the_bird said:
FWIW, the propreitors of the Asian restaurant we go to all the time absolutely ADORE her. They'll take her on a tour of the kitchen, they'll always come up to her (even if they're not waiting on us) and try and make her smile, they'll tie together the chopsticks for her so that she can try and eat with them. It's not a terribly uptight place, we don't bring her to the fancy resturants, but still, she can be fairly rambunctious but it doesn't seem to bother anybody.

Does this mean that she runs wild? Of course not - she gets consequences when she truly misbehaves, but I'm not about to repress her natural enthusiasm. Daddy isn't someone that she's going to learn to fear.
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We get the same type of reaction at the Mexican restaurant we got to. I think the people taking offense in this thread are not the ones the comments are directed at--at least they shouldn't be. But, good parents are still going to be offended by Anti-children comments. Some people have absolutely no patience for children and view any little noise as offensive. Those people truly have a problem and like other parents here, I have no interest in bending to their will either.
 
My kids are expected to behave in public and when guests are around. If they don't they know there will be a consequence. But that is how they have been raised and now they are really easy to take places. Besides, they are 7 and 8 and really no longer little boys. They do push the limits, but I am lucky to have the kids I do.
 
TexLaw said:
I have two boys, 7 and 4. They are every bit "boy" and every bit their age. You better believe my wife and I have our hands full. I don't like the folks that say to stay home with your kids and all that goofy jazz. You want me to stay home with my kids? To hell with you. Stay home if you don't want to see them. I'm going out, and chances are good that they are coming with me.

However, by the same token, I don't agree with the "**** off - kids are kids" bit, either. If I am going to bring my kids out with me and the SWMBO, she and I understand the responsibility, and we deal with those kids. We've worked hard to teach them how to behave and we correct them if they don't do so. I've had more than one "discussion" out in the car with one or both of the boys when they act up at the wrong time. When they've behaved well, I let them know that, too, and tell them how proud I am of them. Most of the time, we get the same "well behaved" comments that others have mentioned. Parenting, when parents bother to do it, works.

Yes, I certainly did act like a kid, running around and acting the fool whenever I could. I also had parents that put up with that when it was appropriate and corrected me firmly when it was not. I learned how to behave appropriately to the place where I was. I remember, even back when I was a kid and as I grew up, how poorly behaved some of my friends were because they didn't know the difference between a nicer restaurant and the school playground and that certain things that are just fine in one place don't fly in another. I also remember how those kids' parents reacted to that behavior. Sometimes, it was "kids will be kids." Sometimes, it was nothing at all. I was shocked about that, even then. Guess what? Nearly every one of those kids grew up to be a certifiable ****up because they still don't know how to behave appropriately. Now, they're having kids, and I sometimes see them raising the ****ups of the future.

So, you folks that can't stand to see kids around, loosen up. Kids are out there, and you just have to deal with that. And, you folks who don't bother teaching your kids how to behave appropriately, get ready for bigger problems down the road.

Oh, and those parents that think their kids $#!+ golden eggs drive me completely up the wall, too. I'll laugh about that comment for a long time. :)


TL
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I suppose some of this *might* be directed at my post above, deservedly so. I was pretty angry when I wrote it. Believe me, my kids know how to behave in public and there are consequences for not doing so.

What really gets my goat is when people (especially those who don't have kids) start getting all judgemental when kids behave like all kids will do at times - unruly. Or simply loud and playful. My wife and I are very concientous about when and where to take the kids, and we have not gone some places (or left once we got there) because it wasn't working out.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to unnecessarily discipline my kids just because some ignorant jerk is being inconvenienced.
 
Beerthoven said:
But I'll be damned if I'm going to unnecessarily discipline my kids just because some ignorant jerk is being inconvenienced.
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If it's inconveniencing anyone, the discipline is probably necessary.
 
shafferpilot said:
If it's inconveniencing anyone, the discipline is probably necessary.
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Hardly. Such a statement assumes that everyone else in the place has a superior right to be there over the child (or, at least, "probably" does).


TL
 
Interesting thread. My daughter is 33 yo so when people ask me about kids I just shrug my shoulders and say I don't know nothin'.
The difference I see with young adults with children in the 21st century is that both demand instant gratification. They are products of a me first attitude that has developed over thae past 30 years or so. Parents living beyond their means due to instant credit, HELOCS and any number of means to obtain money to quench their thirst for all the newest latest greatest biggest stuff. The children see this and demand the same.
I am not inferring that any of you posting here are like that but I see this all around me today.
My folks were humble, lived within their means and never took anything or anybody for granted. Seemed that was the norm for everybody I knew as a child.
I was taught to respect adults. Something that many children and even young adults do not have.
A few years ago a young mother with a small boy about 5-6 years was having trouble with him in the grocery store. Kid was running amok pulling stuff off the shelf pushing people etc. He went screaming by me with both hands out and raked about 20 jars of mayonaise off the shelf and a bunch broke right at my feet.
The mom came running up said he had been acting like that all day and she just didn't know what to do. II offered a suggestion that she should take him off the sugar and maybe give him a good ass whoopin. So now I am the bad person, she went off on me telling me all kinds of F yous, she should have her boyfriend kick my azz. I offered my address and told her what hours I would be home.
I could go on, I had my experience raising children, that is behind me now.
One word of advice to remember. NOBODY loves your children as much as you.
AP
 
All kids, even the best of the best WILL throw a fit in a public place at least 15-17 times in their life.
Does that make the parents bad or irresponsibel? OK then go shoot your parents because you were a little sh*t too and so your parents were bad parents...RIGHT?

If a kid is throwing a fit in public, just feel sorry for the parent and move on.
 
I wanted to chime in even though everything I am thinking has been covered, but I have son that will be 2 in march and ever since my SWMBO and I had him We have absolutley no "Real" Friends My buddies vanished and are still hangin out partying and doin kid **** and dont want to hang with me and thats all right to me as far as im concerned the SWMBO is my best friend and my little buddy will be there 4 ever and anyone that dont want to be friends with me can kiss my ass, as far as asking you to put your dogs away.....That is out of line imo if your dogs dont bite and play with the kids there is no reason and you shouldnt have to.
 
Amen. Just know that the ones raising kids have a ton more responsibilities than you. Not only are they taking care of themselves, they are taking care of the next generation.

All you have to worry about is your own pathetic ass, so quit acting like you are the one who is inconvenienced.
 
I think what most of the non-parents are trying to say is that we understand that parents have every right to take their kids where ever they please, as they should because it's a very important part of development and socialization for children. But what the parents need to understand is that while your lives may revolve around your children, ours do not. It doesn't mean that we are bad people.

This doesn't mean that I am anti-child, I want children in the future, just not right now. I have 10 nieces and nephews and have played a big part in their upbringing so I understand both parts of the arguement. Parents and their children should be free to enjoy a nice dinner or movie, but so should everbody else that paid for the same dinner, movie, etc...

And cheezydemon, just because all I have to look after is my own "pathetic ass" doesn't mean that my life is a walk in the park. Everyone has problems and responsibilities. Just because you have a child doesn't make you Atlas, carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders alone.
 
cheezydemon said:
Amen. Just know that the ones raising kids have a ton more responsibilities than you. Not only are they taking care of themselves, they are taking care of the next generation.

All you have to worry about is your own pathetic ass, so quit acting like you are the one who is inconvenienced.
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Just because someone chooses to 'raise the next generation' does not make them any better than people who can't, won't or already had children. It also doesn't mean that those parents get to be jerks and let their kids interrupt other people's leisure activities. Those without kids shouldn't be running around being disruptive of parent/kid activities either.



Whether you have kids or you don't, you're no better than the other guy---- and if you think you are, then you probably aren't.

There's a middle ground in sharing space with those with and without children and if you (childless or not) can't see that then you are being a selfish boor.
 
kornkob said:
Just because someone chooses to 'raise the next generation' does not make them any better than people who can't, won't or already had children. It also doesn't mean that those parents get to be jerks and let their kids interrupt other people's leisure activities. Those without kids shouldn't be running around being disruptive of parent/kid activities either.



Whether you have kids or you don't, you're no better than the other guy---- and if you think you are, then you probably aren't.

There's a middle ground in sharing space with those with and without children and if you (childless or not) can't see that then you are being a selfish boor.
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Exactly...:mug:
 
kornkob said:
Just because someone chooses to 'raise the next generation' does not make them any better than people who can't, won't or already had children. It also doesn't mean that those parents get to be jerks and let their kids interrupt other people's leisure activities. Those without kids shouldn't be running around being disruptive of parent/kid activities either..
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Amen! I have raised two kids and would not tolerate any misbehaving in restaurants out of respect for the other people who were spending their money to enjoy a meal out. We went for years without going out to dinner till our kids reached the age where they could eat dinner without a fuss.

I just wish other parents would take that into consideration when they go out with their little monsters who cry, scream, & throw stuff through dinner while Mom & Dad act like nothing is happening.

Folks just need to be considerate.
 
Enjoy 'em while you can. At my age I ask people I have known how their kids are doing and I get replies like. "Susie's living with some tweaker bikers in Victorville", and " Bobby's doing ok, he's out on parole and has some job prospects", and the best one is, "I thought all of them were gone for good, but now I have my daughter, her husband and two grandchildren moved in and staying in my garage, and now they just brought home two pit bull puppies and I don't have a yard". Funny how life is.
AP
 
Lets face it the world is over populated and there are scarce resources. I can only see 2 solutions to this problem, #1. is encourage other people to live child-free (they hate to be called child-less as it implies their life is missing something). Or #2 trust in science and hope that certain inheritable traits of mine (i.e. intelligence) will be passed down to the next generation. Thus I would need to have 9 super smart kids so that one of them can come up with the solution to overpopulation and the world&#8217;s other problems.
 
See, here's what I don't get.

My wife and I know our way around a nice restaurant. We used to go out to pretty nice places all the time, pre-daughter. Obviously, we're hitting up the family-friendly places these days, but still - we know how to read a wine list, you know?

Neither of us could recall a single instance in which there was a distruptive child in a nice restaurant. Grabbing a quick bite at Friendly's? Of course. The dimly-lit place with the fancy table cloths? Never.

Makes me wonder whether the phenomenon of unruly children disrupting diners across the country is more of a TV/media stereotype, or what.
 
I blame places like Friday's, Applebees, BW's, etc. for blurring the line between family resaurants and adult bar/restaurants. I remember the first time I saw a bar. It was at an Uno's Pizzeria. Their bar was in a seperate room from the dining areas. All I got was a peak in the doorway. Bars are for adults only. If you want to show your kids responsible drinking, do it at home. After all, it's quite likely that I or one of my friends will be a little drunk and could very well be using adult language or telling dirty jokes.... do you want your kid to learn that stuff? If you wanna go out to eat with your unruly kids, go to a family restaurant. You're a parent now and YOU are the one that needs to make the adjustments in life. Like it or not, I'm not going to.
 
the_bird said:
See, here's what I don't get.

My wife and I know our way around a nice restaurant. We used to go out to pretty nice places all the time, pre-daughter. Obviously, we're hitting up the family-friendly places these days, but still - we know how to read a wine list, you know?

Neither of us could recall a single instance in which there was a distruptive child in a nice restaurant. Grabbing a quick bite at Friendly's? Of course. The dimly-lit place with the fancy table cloths? Never.

Makes me wonder whether the phenomenon of unruly children disrupting diners across the country is more of a TV/media stereotype, or what.
Click to expand...

I was out at a very nice champagne brunch new years day, and there were 2 kids in the place. A 2 or 3 year old and a little baby, neither of them were noisy or screaming or running around, and I could have publicly congratulated the parents for having well behaved kids. None the less the kids were there so the potential for a crying baby or screaming 2 year old was also there. As soon as I saw the kids, and before we even sat down I asked the hostess to seat us on the other side of the bar.

I also don't think young children would get as much out of the dining experience as an adult or even teenager might. It is nice that the couple wanted to bring their kids and spend $40 each on them for a champagne brunch (not including drinks), but I doubt the kids enjoyed their cheese plate any more than they would have enjoyed a grilled cheese at home.
 
EdWort said:
Amen! I have raised two kids and would not tolerate any misbehaving in restaurants out of respect for the other people who were spending their money to enjoy a meal out. We went for years without going out to dinner till our kids reached the age where they could eat dinner without a fuss.

I just wish other parents would take that into consideration when they go out with their little monsters who cry, scream, & throw stuff through dinner while Mom & Dad act like nothing is happening.

Folks just need to be considerate.
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Well, I think that you hit the nail on the head. I'm going to sound really "old" here, but I have noticed a difference in consideration in all aspects of society. Not just unruly children, but talking in movie theatres, loud talking on cell phones on the bus, people hogging the armrests on planes, nasty cursing in public in front of children, loud music blaring, loose dogs on the sidewalk, etc.

So many people today think that it's all about "ME" and "MINE". "I want this and it's my right!" We're forgetting the Golden Rule, and respecting other people. Don't we remember our mothers saying, "Treat others the way you want to be treated", "Use your inside voice", "Say please and thank you"?

I think if we all, child-free or not, remembered those simple old fashioned rules and lives our lives accordingly, being out in public would be much more pleasant for all of us.

I think both sides have valid points here. I have been dismayed to see intolerant people in the bank and stores when children are around and not having a good day. But, I also have been very irritated by children out of control in restaurants. Once, I was at an r- rated movie a few years ago, and a woman was in there with a toddler who was horribly disruptive (scared). The problem is that it's not the child's fault their parent is a moron. On the other hand, why should their "right" to be there overwhelm my right to enjoy myself as well?

I think that "common sense" is not very common at all!
 
the_bird said:
Neither of us could recall a single instance in which there was a distruptive child in a nice restaurant. Grabbing a quick bite at Friendly's? Of course. The dimly-lit place with the fancy table cloths? Never.

Makes me wonder whether the phenomenon of unruly children disrupting diners across the country is more of a TV/media stereotype, or what.
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A) You seem to have a fairly narrow definition of 'nice resturant' that others may not share.

B) You assume that the only resturants people feel disrupted by kids are classifed as a 'nice resturant' and the implication is that if it isn't a 'nice' place then people should expect that they need to tolerate disruptions (whether they be kids or a bunch of foul mouthed bachelors).

Remember that 'disruptive' is a relative term. Different enviornments call for different behaviors.



I, for one, have witnessed varying levels of disruptive behavior by children at places from Perkins (unattended 4 yo running in the aisles actually tripped a waitress who dropped a large platter of food instead of crushing the kid) to l'est cargo (Spelled wrong but it was a pretty durned expensive resturant where some wanker let their kids argue about a toy for 10 minutes while people tried to have quiet conversations). I've got more examples in a varying levels of resturants.

These things happen. Do they happen every time I go out? Nope. Does every parent just let their kid run rampant? Nope. And I don't think anyone is saying that.
 
kornkob said:
to l'est cargo (Spelled wrong but it was a pretty durned expensive resturant where some wanker let their kids argue about a toy for 10 minutes while people tried to have quiet conversations).
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See, that would really irriate me. At a fine (pricey) restaurant, I'm paying for good food and ambieance, not screaming kids. I would have asked the waiter to send my check to the inconsiderate A-hole with the screaming kids just to get a reaction.
 
EdWort said:
See, that would really irriate me. At a fine (pricey) restaurant, I'm paying for good food and ambieance, not screaming kids. I would have asked the waiter to send my check to the inconsiderate A-hole with the screaming kids just to get a reaction.
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It pissed me off. That 10 minutes was only because the maiter'd (spelling) spoke to them (and from the looks of it they argued for a bit) otehrwise I'm sure it would have gone on for a while.

It was discourteous of those parents to let it go that far.
 
Donasay said:
(they hate to be called child-less as it implies their life is missing something)
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Being called childless seems to bother people about as often as being called a 'breeder' or refering to their children as 'crotch fruit' bothers people.
 
kornkob said:
Being called childless seems to bother people about as often as being called a 'breeder' or refering to their children as 'crotch fruit' bothers people.
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yeah, that bothers me. The childless are missing something....children who grow up and perpetuate the species and BTW, are usually there to provide comfort, love and help in one's old age. There are lots of "childless" people who will grow old and die alone.
 
TexLaw said:
Hardly. Such a statement assumes that everyone else in the place has a superior right to be there over the child (or, at least, "probably" does).


TL
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Not at all!

It only implies that everyone has the right to enjoy the place without being inconvenienced by some else, whatever their size or age.

Think of it this way.... 2 situations where exactly the same thing is happening, who is in the wrong?

#1 nice restaurant, everyone is having a nice meal and enjoying themselves. In walks the party of four, one of which has had a bit too much to drink. He is talking LOUD. Not yelling, but just speaking loud enough that everyone within 20 feet of him can hear him. He's not swearing, or abusing anyone, just about 3 notches too high on the volume. He accidentally knocks his dink on the floor, smashing it and making a mess. Everyone around him is looking at him, getting upset, NOT enjoying themselves. His friends see this, but think "He's a bit drunk, who cares?"

#2 same nice restaurant, everyone is having a nice meal and enjoying themselves. In walks the party of four, one of which is a 2 year old. He is talking LOUD. Not yelling, but just speaking loud enough that everyone within 20 feet of him can hear him. He's not swearing, or abusing anyone, just about 3 notches too high on the volume. He accidentally knocks his dink on the floor, smashing it and making a mess. Everyone around him is looking at him, getting upset, NOT enjoying themselves. His Parents see this, but think "He's a kid, who cares?" As a matter of fact, Dad tenses up, GLARES at anyone who dares look their way and lets junior carry on.

No one wants to hear the drunk, or deal with his mess. No one wants to hear the kid, or deal with his mess.

Age is not a factor. Inconsiderate behaviour IS.

I believe we should all have the right to do ANYTHING we want... as long as it does not infringe on the rights of anyone else.

Oh yeah, I wasn't going to comment any more was I? Sorry
 
PeteOz77 said:
I believe we should all have the right to do ANYTHING we want... as long as it does not infringe on the rights of anyone else.
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That right there is the variable that will never be figured out. It is the center of so many debates.
 
GaryA said:
That right there is the variable that will never be figured out. It is the center of so many debates.
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Exactly.. when does my right to listen to music as loud as I like, infringe on your right to silence? How many DB is acceptable? For you to expect to not hear it at ALL is ludicrous, but just where is that point where it's unacceptable?
 
EdWort said:
There are lots of "childless" people who will grow old and die alone.
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Lots of parents grow old and die alone staring at the picures of their kids on the bedside table of their old folks home, too.

Child/no child is a lifestyle choice. Each choice comes with things you will miss or expereince only in small increments that the other will get to experience in full. Both add something to the community.

Not better or worse--- just different.
 
PeteOz77 said:
Exactly.. when does my right to listen to music as loud as I like, infringe on your right to silence? How many DB is acceptable? For you to expect to not hear it at ALL is ludicrous, but just where is that point where it's unacceptable?
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It's always a tough discussion when talking about this sort of thing. As in just about everything, it's about reasonable compromise. We share the space we live in no matter who 'owns' it.

To borrow your example, it's just as unreasonable to play music so loudly that other people are unable to hold a conversation in their home or worse, interrupts nocturnal sleep.

The point of concepts like courtesy and politeness aren't just antiquaited ideals from a bygone, knightly era. They are guidelines for appropriate behavior that allow people to assess how to act in different circumstances.
 
PeteOz77 said:
Not at all!

It only implies that everyone has the right to enjoy the place without being inconvenienced by some else, whatever their size or age.

Think of it this way.... 2 situations where exactly the same thing is happening, who is in the wrong?

#1 drunk adult situation

#2 2-year old situation

Age is not a factor. Inconsiderate behaviour IS.

I believe we should all have the right to do ANYTHING we want... as long as it does not infringe on the rights of anyone else.

Oh yeah, I wasn't going to comment any more was I? Sorry
Click to expand...

You really don't see a difference between the two situations? Firstly, situation #1 is illegal (public drunkeness is illegal in nearly all locations) and irresponsible. The second situation is neither illegal or irresponsible and the child knocking over a cup is an accident. It's like getting in to a car accident. If you're drunk, you irresponsible, if you're not, it's just an accident (it happens)

Also, how could you say age isn't a factor. One person is clearly responsible for his actions and the other is a child that doesn't, and at that age isn't, capable of knowing better. Even the law recognizes that children (especially small ones) aren't capable of being responsible for their actions. Whereas the drunk is, but just chose to ignore better judgment.
 
The parent is therefore responsible for their child's actions. I think the issue being discussed is that of how far a parent will let their children go off the deep end when it is disruptive to others.

Some restaurants pride themselves on a lively family atmosphere. How do I define these? The places that have the wait staff clap and shout like a bunch of monkeys for someone celebrating a birthday are in that club. This is where you go with kids and shouldn't get hassled if one of them is having a bad day. Likewise, if you go to a place like this and expect to not be inconvenienced by a crying kid here or there, shame on your poorly crafted expectations.
 
Again, there are parents who don't discipline enough, but how many here had good parents and still acted out or screamed in an inappropriate place?

Any one who says "not me!" is mentally handicapped, just doesn't remember, and deserves our sympathy.
 
cheezydemon said:
...but how many here had good parents and still acted out or screamed in an inappropriate place?
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Hell, I definitely acted out and had the occasional tantrum, but my parents were quick to nip it in the bud or remove me from the situation before it got out of hand
 

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