Interesting reply from LHBS re: Better Bottles

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nostalgia

nostalgia

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I sent an email to a LHBS with a link to a brewing kit that I saw over at Midwest. I asked if they had something similar, since I didn't see it on their website.

The manager who replied to me said they do, then followed with:

The only thing I would note to you is that the kit you sent in the link uses “Better Bottles” which are made of plastic, and, despite what the company says, it’s not better… plastic is somewhat permeable, and beer can become oxidized as a result if you use it as a secondary.
Click to expand...

I find this interesting. I thought the 'big deal' with Better Bottles is that the PET plastic is not permeable.

Have there been reports of oxidized beer in Better Bottles?

-Joe
 
nostalgia said:
I sent an email to a LHBS with a link to a brewing kit that I saw over at Midwest. I asked if they had something similar, since I didn't see it on their website.

The manager who replied to me said they do, then followed with:



I find this interesting. I thought the 'big deal' with Better Bottles is that the PET plastic is not permeable.

Have there been reports of oxidized beer in Better Bottles?

-Joe
Click to expand...

I believe it is an opinion just like the Aluminum vs SS arguement.
 
You guys definitely don't have to sell me on them - my only decision now is another pail or a BB for a second primary. There are plenty of arguments here on both sides of that fence ;)

I was just interested by the tone of his reply - it comes off sounding...superstitious isn't quite the word I want, but it's late. Like he heard that whole plastic oxidation thing once and now refuses to believe any product made of plastic could be any good.

-Joe
 
I think any pail will fail miserably compared to BB as far as oxidation goes. I guess you could still opt for a pail for ease-of-transfer, better uv protection, etc.
 
I pretty much switched to pails for primary fermenters because of the ease of clean up (krasuen residue is a pain to scrub out of a carboy compared to a pail I don't care who you are) I save the glass carboys for secondary fermentors now

How much O2 is going to permeate into my bucket in 7-10 days time? ..Yeah I though as much ;)


I would like to give one of these BB a try...they need to drop the price on them about 15% then I would quite making excuses no to get one or two of them. :D
 
The Better Bottles are more permeable to O2 than glass but the amount of transfer is minuscule compared to buckets. BBs have a low enough permeability to allow storing wine for 6months to a year, it is not going to affect the usually shorter term aging of beer.
The very small amount of O2 permeability of buckets is not a problem for a primary where the beverage will only be stored for a month or at most 2.

I have mostly BBs for secondaries because they are so much easier to handle.

Craig
 
I have 2 BB's and one pail as fermenters. I like being able to see what's going on during fermentation, which is a nice benefit of the BB (or glass carboy). I do like using a bucket if I'm dry hopping.
 
i have scrubbed a dirty carboy many a time....then i found homebrewtalk and oxyclean! no more scrubbing. just fill your carboy with hot water and add oxyclean. set it and forget it. i think scrubbing did not get my glass as clean.
 
nostalgia said:
You guys definitely don't have to sell me on them - my only decision now is another pail or a BB for a second primary. There are plenty of arguments here on both sides of that fence ;)

I was just interested by the tone of his reply - it comes off sounding...superstitious isn't quite the word I want, but it's late. Like he heard that whole plastic oxidation thing once and now refuses to believe any product made of plastic could be any good.

-Joe
Click to expand...

well, yeah ... a brew shop guy has spent a LOT of time explaining to newbies how those 6-gallon plastic pails are not as good as a glass carboy. No argument there.

I like glass, even though it's dangerous, and distrust plastic on some level ... so I won't be Better Bottling anytime soon. I recognize it's mostly superstitious bullcrap but it works for me! Anyway, I'd say, don't grudge the guy his superstitions but when he shares them, blow them right off and do what works for you. There's no scientific reason I know of why Better Bottles should be any worse than real glass.

cheers!

--Finn
 
I think the manager is full of BS. The Better Bottle is better than glass in SO MANY WAYS.

Lighter
Easier to manage
Easier to clean
Easier to pick up
Easier to grip when wet
Goes from hot to cold without cracking and breaking
Goes from cold to hot without cracking and breaking
Goes from the counter to the floor without cracking and breaking
Does not sever arteries, pflanges, or limbs when broken
Can be ported for easy racking

Oh, glass is less permeable to oxygen. (see below)
Yes, Better-Bottle PET carboys are slightly more permeable than glass; however, it would be a mistake to assume that using a glass carboy will guarantee superior results. The traces of oxygen that penetrate Better-Bottle PET carboys are incredibly difficult to measure and insignificant when compared with the amounts of oxygen diffusing through, or leaking past, air locks (especially liquid-filled air locks), stoppers (especially silicone stoppers), most common types of flexible tubing, and the staves of oak barrels. Moreover, oxygen diffuses into, and reacts with, wine and beer so quickly that removing a closure from a carboy, even briefly, for testing and making adjustments can allow a great deal of oxygen to enter. Wine and beer essentially suck up oxygen. And racking from one open carboy to another open carboy with a siphon, a pretty standard approach when glass carboys are used, will add a great deal of oxygen in an uncontrolled manner.
Click to expand...
 
EdWort said:
I think the manager is full of BS. The Better Bottle is better than glass in SO MANY WAYS.

Lighter
Easier to manage
Easier to clean
Easier to pick up
Easier to grip when wet
Goes from hot to cold without cracking and breaking
Goes from cold to hot without cracking and breaking
Goes from the counter to the floor without cracking and breaking
Does not sever arteries, pflanges, or limbs when broken
Can be ported for easy racking

Oh, glass is less permeable to oxygen. (see below)
Click to expand...

Just to play Devil's advocate, EdWort...

I'm sure that they are lighter when they are empty, but when they're full does a few pounds really make that much of a difference?

How exactly are they easier to manage/clean/pickup?

I'll give you the rest of them. Glass breaking = bad news.
 
ohiobrewtus said:
Just to play Devil's advocate, EdWort...

I'm sure that they are lighter when they are empty, but when they're full does a few pounds really make that much of a difference?

How exactly are they easier to manage/clean/pickup?

I'll give you the rest of them. Glass breaking = bad news.
Click to expand...

You bet if you have a bad back. Cleaning is a snap and you can drain them by just placing them upside down in a pint glass. I would not try that with a glass carboy.
 
EdWort said:
You bet if you have a bad back. Cleaning is a snap and you can drain them by just placing them upside down in a pint glass. I would not try that with a glass carboy.
Click to expand...

As a guy who had back surgery only 8 months ago, I can say that I have no problem hauling around a carboy full of beer. A better bottle full of beer would likely feel the same to carry short of putting it on a scale.

I need some conicals, bright tanks and pumps then I never have to carry anything! :rockin:
 
the issue is for secondary. people use buckets all the time for primary which are most deffinitly o2 permiable....however secondary should not be done in a permiable container due to oxidation. They are ever so slightly oxygen permiable however i havent noticed any problems with my 5 gal BB. I also know edwort ferments his apfelwein in better bottles for 6 weeks at a time to no defficit. It really is Aluminum vs SS all over again. I wouldnt age a wine in there for 6 months but why does it matter for a week? or you could just go with glass if your really that worried. Either way every time you pull the top off to check gravity o2 will invade the space. GOD FORBID
 
for the record i commented without reading the second page of posts. Its just one of those nights...no anger meant twords the forum of course.
 
Is there a big difference between BB and the 5 gal water bottles used in office style water coolers? I can get my hands on 5 water bottles for free from a friend and I would like to have them if they would work.
 
Bill1968 said:
Is there a big difference between BB and the 5 gal water bottles used in office style water coolers? I can get my hands on 5 water bottles for free from a friend and I would like to have them if they would work.
Click to expand...

From the Better Bottle Site.
Carboys made of polycarbonate (the plastic made from Bisphenol-A), polyethylene, polypropylene, or polyvinyl chloride are not suitable for winemaking or brewing. They are too permeable, scalp flavors, and stain. They will have no recycle mark at all or be labeled with codes of "2", or greater. Those that are not translucent or opaque will probably be tinted a fairly deep color to mask the color of stabilizing additives.
Click to expand...
 
Bill1968 said:
Is there a big difference between BB and the 5 gal water bottles used in office style water coolers? I can get my hands on 5 water bottles for free from a friend and I would like to have them if they would work.
Click to expand...

yes there is.
First. BEFORE YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT IT...Make sure they are #1 HDPET plastic. (this is more the exception than the rule)
Secondly, those cool carboy caps don't fit snugly enough, so you'll actually need to find a stopper that works. I use Duct Tape and a carboy cap to trap out the air.
Thirdly. Make sure you clean Clean CLEAN them before use.
Fourthly...When you get fermentors for free ($6 In my case) you'll brew more...drink more....bottle more...be happy more.

Give it a try with Apfelwein for a test!:mug:
 
I dont think the oxygen permeability is a real issue, but I can say from experience that beer/wine/mead tend to clear a lot quicker in glass than plastic. the only other benefit of glass over plastic is that its a lot harder to scratch glass in a way that will result in infections. I prefer glass over plastic only cause im paranoid about sanitation, but in reality I think the only thing to consider when choosing is which one will let you sleep better at night.
 
I picked up one of the bottles from my buddy this afternoon to check it out. It is a returnable type but the number in the little triangle is a 7 . so it looks like I'm not that lucky after all.
 
Bill1968 said:
I picked up one of the bottles from my buddy this afternoon to check it out. It is a returnable type but the number in the little triangle is a 7 . so it looks like I'm not that lucky after all.
Click to expand...

Fill it with RO water, add 1 oz. of Star San and you have a nice jug of sanitizer to sit around when you need it. It will last for months like this if you have a cap for the water bottle. I do it and it comes in very handy.
 
bradsul said:
Actually my mother uses BB for making her wine and she's aged some for upwards of a year with no problems. Just bottled one about a month ago (after 9 months in a BB) and it tasted amazing.
Click to expand...

I have done many blueberry wines using a plastic carboy and only one had a noticable oxygenation problen, and that was slight. My last BB wine secondaryed for 5 months before I bottled it and it tastes great.

I make many brews using said plastic carboys and haven't had a problem with them yet. I secondary in glass, so I guess that would explain it.

I recently bought a BB and find it to be the same as my plastic carboys.
Look Ma, no cuts.

As I replace my fermenting equipment, I'll replace them with BB.
 
As far as aging wine in a better bottle goes, I'd say the oxygen permeability of a better bottle is negligible compared to a cork.
 
pirate504 said:
I pretty much switched to pails for primary fermenters because of the ease of clean up (krasuen residue is a pain to scrub out of a carboy compared to a pail I don't care who you are) I save the glass carboys for secondary fermentors now

How much O2 is going to permeate into my bucket in 7-10 days time? ..Yeah I though as much ;)


I would like to give one of these BB a try...they need to drop the price on them about 15% then I would quite making excuses no to get one or two of them. :D
Click to expand...


Do you know what Better Bottles are made of?

Petroleum By-products. Not likely to go down in price. As a matter of fact they just announced a price increase so buy them now at the lower price.

Forrest
 
EdWort said:
I've had Apfelwein in a Better Bottle for over 4 months with no oxidation.
Click to expand...

i stand corrected. I still prefer glass but BB are nice because there so damn easy to move. Its a pain that preasure changes can get suckback on the airlock though whereas glass doesnt have that problem because the walls are rigid
 
scinerd3000 said:
i stand corrected. I still prefer glass but BB are nice because there so damn easy to move. Its a pain that preasure changes can get suckback on the airlock though whereas glass doesnt have that problem because the walls are rigid
Click to expand...

Use vodka in the airlock, no problem.
 
Thanks for the informative and civil discussion, all ;)

I just ordered 2, 6-gallon BBs for primaries. As convenient as my bucket is, I'm a beer voyeur - I want to watch :D

-Joe
 
nostalgia said:
Thanks for the informative and civil discussion, all ;)

I just ordered 2, 6-gallon BBs for primaries. As convenient as my bucket is, I'm a beer voyeur - I want to watch :D

-Joe
Click to expand...


You wont be sorry, I finally got my first BB from Austin Homebrew last week. Just from washing it I fell in love! It was so nice to just fling it around by the neck with one hand while using a sprayer in another. I had to wash out my primary glass one right after and reminded me how heavy they really are.
 
Jester369 said:
I'm betting his LHBS just doesn't carry them, so the manager tells everyone they are bad.
Click to expand...

Or wants to sell his now overpriced glass carboys. According to Forrest at AHS the glass carboy's are going to be about $50 in the next few months due to the Mexico factory closing. Carboy's will have to come from Italy now.
 
Revvy said:
Or wants to sell his now overpriced glass carboys. According to Forrest at AHS the glass carboy's are going to be about $50 in the next few months due to the Mexico factory closing. Carboy's will have to come from Italy now.
Click to expand...

Why so expensive down there? Where I am in Canada (East Coast), it's about $20 for a 23L (6 gal.) glass carboy from Italy.

Also, a question in general: are the plastic BBs not impacted by the BPA controversy?

EDIT: Nevermind the second question... I went to the BB site and read about the absence of BPA.
 

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