Classify my Beer please -- and critique too

I have no idea what to classify my beer as --- i was thinking maybe chocolate stout but i am really not sure.

the idea was to get a strong beer resembling guiness -- but instead of a burnt type taste more of a chocolate coffee type taste --- with maybe some citrus undertones from the hops i used ... right now it is in the second day of fermenting

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5-hour starter --- baby wort + yeast (White Labs Dry English Ale)

30 minute mash - 6 pounds British Chocolate Malt (350L)

mash in 154
mash out 158

(stuff smelled gorgeous --- like fresh fresh coffee)


90 minute boil

60 - 2 oz Cascades (real citrus smell )
60 - 3 tablespoons cocoa powder
30 - 1oz Cascades
25 - whirlfloc tablet
15 - 1oz Cascades
0 - remove from heat


OG 1.114

yeast bottle says 80% attenuation even with 10% ABV beers



---- i am crossing my fingers trying to figure out ways to get the best attenuation to get rid of the sweetness ----

but -- what type of beer would this be considered?

Jesus Christ that's a lot of Chocolate Malt!

mr x said:

Jesus Christ that's a lot of Chocolate Malt!

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OMGBBQ!

Is that a brew with just chocolate malt as the grain bill??

wow, this sounds... gross. It's going to be extremely burnt and bitter.. not pleasant burnt and bitter, but probably undrinkable burnt and bitter. You shouldn't go above a pound or two with chocolate malt. You need a base malt in there, any 2-row will do or even wheat for goodness sake. I'd also never use cascades with a stout in any form. That citrus just doesn't seem right.

I don't think chocolate malt has the enzyme power to convert itself in the mash so you might not get any fermentation at all. And 1.114 OG from only 6lbs of grain? you must have only made 1 gallon? Or maybe you are just reading your hydrometer wrong.

Sorry to say, but any fermentables that you get from chocolate malt are minimal (pretty close to zero). You need base malt, or extract, or something; your "beer" right now has no sugars in it.

I am not sure it would fall into a current classification. And to be honest, I personally have little use for classifications any more. They are merely guides to me if I want to brew 'in style'. I just think of what I want in a beer and go for it. That is really the only way to make something truly unique. However. There exists the possibility (more likely the probability) that you will have some failures when you venture into new ways of looking at things. Not saying you have failed at all, that judgement is for you to decide.

I thought I read that recipe wrong at first. I agree with the general sentiment here. I unfortunately don't think you'll have anything too enjoyable on your hands. Here's to me being wrong

Is this post really serious?!

I'm having trouble believing... If you have enough sense to know there are different types of hop additions (60 minute boiling, 15 minute flavor/aroma) and mash in/out temps, etc. (all which is evidenced by the OP's 'recipe'), then you'd surely have seen a stout recipe somewhere and know that the grain bill isn't all chocolate malt...

If it is a serious post, this will not be a drinkable product and you've just wasted $15-25... Do a little more research on stouts, porters, and brown ales and reformulate a realistic recipe. Or, better yet, just use someones recipe from the database for your first brew.

i am very sorry --- i forgot to add in the extract in my post

13.2 pounds of light liquid malt extract


5 gallon batch --- 30 minute mash --- 90 minute boil

shaggynuts24 said:

I have no idea what to classify my beer as --- i was thinking maybe chocolate stout but i am really not sure.

the idea was to get a strong beer resembling guiness -- but instead of a burnt type taste more of a chocolate coffee type taste --- with maybe some citrus undertones from the hops i used ... right now it is in the second day of fermenting
…
30 minute mash - 6 pounds British Chocolate Malt (350L)
mash in 154
mash out 158

(stuff smelled gorgeous --- like fresh fresh coffee)
25 - whirlfloc tablet
OG 1.114
---- i am crossing my fingers trying to figure out ways to get the best attenuation to get rid of the sweetness ----
but -- what type of beer would this be considered?

Click to expand...

Shaggynuts…(love the name).

Where did you come up with this recipe?

Chocolate malt is an additive malt…used to add flavor and color to your base malts. It is not intended to be used as a base malt. As was mentioned earlier, you’re likely not going to have much in the way of fermentable sugars so a very sweet, burnt, bitter, black-as-oil concoction is what you’re likely to end up with.

I’m at a bit of a loss as to why you’d use whirlfloc in a stout.

If you’re wanting a Guinness style stout, the recipe is very simple:

65% Base malt (Pale malt, 2-Row, Marris Otter…etc)
25% Flaked Barley
10% Roast Barley.

Add one hop addition at 60 minutes of an English hop variety (EKG, Fuggles) to achieve an IBU of around 30.

But please…do let us know how it turns out.

shaggynuts24 said:

i am very sorry --- i for got to add in the extract in my post

13.2 pounds of light liquid malt extract

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Ah ha! That's more like it. Are you definitely mashing the Chocolate or are you steeping it?

Is this 5 gal or 10 gal???

I think it's 5 gal, which means:
OG: 1.120
FG: 1.031
Color: 114 SRM
IBU: 31.4

Est. Alc by vol: 12.4%

All I gotta say is... wow.

[EDIT]

Okay, now I see. Boy...you just avoided being the poster child for worst brewing experiences of 2007.

Holy crap, it was serious... 13.2lb LME?! Has to be in 5g to get an OG of 1.1XX

Your LHBS owner must have been seeing only $$$ when he let you brew this recipe. That's all I'm going to say...

He should have helped you out by saying go 6-9lb liquid extract and maybe 1lb chocolate malt. Also, if you want a stout, you probably need some roasted barley as well...

That's still WAY more chocolate malt that I've ever seen in a recipe. If it comes out good - bully for you! I suspect it's going to have WAY too much of a roast/ash-ey taste to it. Chocolate malt (and all roasted malts) are best used in moderation.

i haven't advanced enough to try the all grain batches yet

if this one turns out horrible it will be my first bad batch

first 2 were highly drinkable extract/grain beers

shaggynuts24 said:

i haven't advanced enough to try the all grain batches yet

if this one turns out horrible it will be my first bad batch

first 2 were highly drinkable extract/grain beers

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I highly recommend you download the trial of BeerSmith or ProMash or similar program. Put your recipes in before brewing and you can estimate all your vital stats.

That's what I did to get the numbers I posted in my previous post.

zoebisch01 said:

I am not sure it would fall into a current classification. And to be honest, I personally have little use for classifications any more. They are merely guides to me if I want to brew 'in style'. I just think of what I want in a beer and go for it. That is really the only way to make something truly unique. However. There exists the possibility (more likely the probability) that you will have some failures when you venture into new ways of looking at things. Not saying you have failed at all, that judgement is for you to decide.

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Kudos...that's quite a nice and polite way to suggest the application of FAIL!

your responses are cracking me --- i can't help but to laugh at myself for being naive with the dark grains.


dropped the grains in their steeping sacks in a pot of hot water at 154 degree's and kept it there for 10 minutes --- then gradually increased the temp to 158 after another 20 minutes i pulled the sacks out --- and let it drip back into the pot until it stopped dripping

i did not sparge --- i did not rinse

the condensed solution (if thats what you want to call it) smelled like weak coffee

then i poured that into my boil pot added water -- brought it to a boil and added my extract

shaggynuts24 said:

your responses are cracking me --- i can't help but to laugh at myself for being naive with the dark grains.


dropped the grains in their steeping sacks in a pot of hot water at 154 degree's and kept it there for 10 minutes --- then gradually increased the temp to 158 after another 20 minutes i pulled the sacks out --- and let it drip back into the pot until it stopped dripping

i did not sparge --- i did not rinse

the condensed solution (if thats what you want to call it) smelled like weak coffee

then i poured that into my boil pot added water -- brought it to a boil and added my extract

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I honestly think it'll be ok depending on your taste. It doesn't sound that crazy...

OK, it's a big beer now, not a complete disaster, although it still looks way heavy on the chocolate side. Might be blendable if not drinkable. I am wondering if your starter was big enough now.

Do yourself a HUGE favor and pick up a copy of Jamil Z's new book. It's a great resource - it's like eighty recipes that Jamil and his buddies have made, every style in the guidelines, all beers that have won awards. Designed primarily for extract brewers. You seem like someone who's interested in making up your own recipes; read that book, and you'll get a lot of really great ideas on where to start from.

Ray Daniels' Designing Great Beers is an even better resouce, but it's a bit more advanced (pheomomenal book, you WILL want to own it at some point). Start with Jamil's book and go from there. Or, if you're cheap (like most of us), peruse www.howtobrew.com, it's John Palmer's first edition of How To Brew, all 100% free online. Again, these resouces will give you a better foundation for your explorations...

mr x said:

OK, it's a big beer now, not a complete disaster, although it still looks way heavy on the chocolate side. Might be blendable if not drinkable. I am wondering if your starter was big enough now.

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-------

after 60 hours --- the airlock is still bubbling like a champ


this is my 3rd attempt at a beer ---- first 1 was very pale went from 1.062 to 1.020


it is my first attempt at a dark beer though --- i hope i don't have to pour it out

Honestly, I think your only hope if you want something somewhat drinkable would be to dilute this to a 10g batch size. Then of course you are short on the hops... Either way it doesn't look good for this one.

Definitely buy a recipe book or two and take a look at the general recipe for the different styles. Jamil's book is a good suggestion but ANY recipe book would have prevented this waste of $$$ on 13lb of LME - that couldn't be cheap.

Also, Beersmith is worth every penny of the $20 or so registration...

shaggynuts24 said:

it is my first attempt at a dark beer though --- i hope i don't have to pour it out

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Well as always, WAIT. You may have to wait a very long time. If you don't like it and don't care for it in the first month after bottling, if you have the room just set it aside and forget about it. Then come back months later and just sample one at about 50 °F. Unless it is so horribly appalling (I am personally wondering what your pH did) that you can't stomach it, then I'd suggest to just let it linger and give it a fighting chance.

my second beer tasted awful after being bottled for 2 weeks --- 3 weeks and still not so good at 4 weeks ---- i left it in the garage for 5 months (all spring and most of the summer) -- then refrigerated it for another 5 months

it now tastes great --- and i am ashamed to say i drank all but 1 bottle of it in the last 6 weeks


i will wait and see what this one does ----- thanks for all of your feedback and constructive criticism --- i did laugh at some of the replies --- but, thanks for not running me off

FWIW, I ran this through Beersmith and your OG is fairly close to what it should have been. Either way, in a 5g batch, with full boil, you are going to have a beer that has about 37IBU (bitterness) to balance a ton of malt. For reference, I think Sierra Nevada PA has 35-40IBU range and half the gravity of your beer. EDIT: I know comparing a pale to a stout isn't the best 'reference' but its just what flew off the top of my head. SNPA is a fairly hoppy pale ale at 35-40IBU and 5%ish ABV... yours is going to be MUCH MUCH sweeter at 35ish IBU and 10% ABV. That's the point I was trying to make...

If you didn't do a full boil of 6g or so, then your IBU will be half of that or less...

It's going to be a VERYYYYYYYYY sweet beer - probably finishing in the 1.030+ range. Also, as noted a million times, its probably going to be super roasty, etc.

Just out of curiosity, was the chocolate malt crushed? I would think the water would smell like a little more than 'weak coffee' with that much dark grain, but I could be wrong...

It will be an interesting beer.

No matter how good ProMash, Beersmith, or any other brewing software may be, nothing will tell you how the stuff will taste in the end.

And, you may have hit upon something here!


TL

You may find it good for serving in an aperatif glass . It is most likely not going to be a session beer, but rather something that is very intense more like an intense flavor experience...assuming it works out in the wash .

zoebisch01 said:

You may find it good for serving in an aperatif glass . It is most likely not going to be a session beer, but rather something that is very intense more like an intense flavor experience...assuming it works out in the wash .

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or another alternative would be to blend it with another beer with complimentary properties.

brewt00l said:

or another alternative would be to blend it with another beer with complimentary properties.

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That is indeed a possibility as well.

it was crushed at the brew store


to help classify "weak" coffee --- 4 scoops folgers in a 12-cup pot is kind of weak

5 scoops Community New Orleans Blend (the one with chicory) is a nice average strength


maybe this would be a nice desert beer --- served with new york style cheesecake -- not sure

but if i can't just grab a bottle a drink it on any occassion - then my mission might have failed


oooooh maybe a breakfast beer --- yeah --- eggs and bacon ect...

HEY - You just got me thinking. This beer would make a KILLER syrup to swirl gently into a cheesecake, and also for a drizzle!

It's gonna be SO sweet, roasty, thick, and malty that cheesecake is the PERFECT match for it.

I'm worried that your pale was OG of 1.060+ also... even "big" beers are around 1.060, a pale shouldn't be much over 1.050 for a pretty "big" one....

For reference, session beers are usually under 1.040 and under 4% alcohol.

I think your LHBS guy might (I'm not accusing here!!) be trying to get you to use as much product as possible so that he can make more $$. Just a thought.

I think the blending idea was really clever. Maybe do a batch of pale ale and blend. Have 10 gallons of some sort of robust american brown?

I gotta tell you, this beer intrigues me. It's a bit hard to get my mind around, but I bet it comes out quite interesting (and I don't mean that as a euphamism). I imagine you can find some great time for it, and it certainly will blend well.


TL

shaggynuts24 said:

but if i can't just grab a bottle a drink it on any occassion - then my mission might have failed

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Guess you'll have to wait and see, but I wouldn't think this would turn out to be a very 'drinkable', on any occassion, beer...

If it doesn't turn out as expected, try the recipe database below under the porter and/or stout categories. Lots of chocolate/coffee recipes in there.

Here is one for example; it's an all grain recipe for chocolate coffee stout, but can be easily converted to something extract with grains like you've been doing by just replacing the two row with the right amount of light extract and steeping or (better yet) partial mashing the other grains:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=46862

EDIT: Or the blending idea sounds great - just make sure you brew what you plan to blend it with to the correct spec...

as much as i would like to blame my LHBS owner --- the runaway recipe is all mine

Defalco's in Houston is pretty nice by not trying to talk you into anything, but still extremely helpful when answering questions ....

Another thought I had:

It might also work to brew up a "hop tea" of just additional water (1-2g) and boiling hops and add it to the batch. This would dilute the gravity a bit and give some more bitterness to balance the malty sweetness (which even after 1g or so of water will still be the result)...

Basically all you would do is take 1-2oz of cascase, boil in 1-2g of water for 60 min and mix with your batch... It would make it more drinkable almost for certain... EDIT: Just spitballing here, but to really 'balance' this you'd probably need a minimum of 2g... You could go less if you want it on the sweet side, but you said you don't like em sweet...

If you pass on the blending it with another 5g batch idea....

EDIT2: Playing around in Beersmith (can you tell I'm bored and on a 'lunch' break), it looks like if you added 1.5g of water boiled for 60 min with 1oz. Cascade, it would give you 6.5g of 1.080 (original) gravity beer and somewhere around 55ish IBU. This is definitely far better than 1.114 or whatever your OG was and only 35IBU. Probably still a bit on the sweet side, but maybe not with all that roasty chocolate bitterness from the grains. I'd let it ferment out, give it a taste, and if its undrinkably sweet - consider doing something like this or blending.

i think my best bet is to sample some when i move it to a secondary


which i don't have --- so looks like i will transfer it to my ale pail scrub out my glass carboy and transfer it back to my carboy

if it tastes awfull, i will look into diluting it with something

shaggynuts24 said:

i think my best bet is to sample some when i move it to a secondary

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You're always welcome to send some to me for sampling and analysis as well.