My Belgian Quad. Have ideas that I need to strew over.

Hey everyone.

So I am putting together my first Belgian Quad and I am STOKED. This will be my 2nd aging beer next to my oaked stock ale (thinking of putting two growlers of it away one with a fruit of something in it and the other by itself and aging for a year or two).

I have a recipe and I know it is a tad unconventional, but I wanted some opinions since I am still stewing over it. Lookin to brew in a few weeks.
(I need to learn how to import Beersmith recipes...that would make this easier)

Bokkenrijder's Belgian Quad

10.75lb 2-row
03.00lb Pilsner
01.00lb Aromatic
01.00lb Special B
00.50lb Melanoiden Malt
00.50lb Wheat flaked (maybe slightly toasted)
03.25lb Clear Candi Syrup (inverted sugar)
00.75lb Dark Candi Syrup
(simple sugars added after majority of primary finishes)

0.50oz target (8.6%) 70min
1.00oz target (8.6%) 45min

Yeast...Tough call, I have both the Ommegang and Bernardus Strains (plenty of them). I can either pick one, OR, go freakin crazy, co-culture a few generations, and produce my own proprietary strain of Belgian Abbey Yeast. (I am a microbiologist and have access to incubators and such...if I wanted to get really fancy I could force sexual reproduction in lab but I am not quite that gun-ho (sp)).

Estimated OG-1.101
Estimated FG- 1.021-1.018
Estimated IBU- 28.5
Estimated SRM- 25.1

Mash Temp- Don't know whether to go high or low...Initial thought is middle ground, 153. but I am open to suggestions.

Fermentation Temp- 1st wk around 67F, add syrups and ferment at 70 for 1 wk. then ramp to 75 for 2wks. transfer to secondary for a few weeks. Bottle. wait, wait, and wait.

Also I know I should go with all pils, but I am trying to keep my cost down and I have close to 100lb of two row just sitting in my house.

Lookin to bottle some in 10oz belgian bottles (gifts and taste tests) and the rest in 750mL and age...I have people in my brew group and a bar who have the space to store them in the fridges so I don't have to keep looking at them.

Can't wait to hear what you think. Thanks for everything

IMO, clear candi syrup is a waste of money to buy and a waste of time to make. Just add cane sugar to the fermentor or kettle.

I agree about the sugar, just use cane sugar. Other than that, it looks fine. You've got the right idea about ramping up the temp to help the yeast finish. I would personally make a medium ABV 5 gallon batch of Belgian Pale Ale or something to act as a starter so you will have a TON of yeast for this big quad.

While I agree that using the clear candi sugar is unnecessary, it can be fun to make. Check out the Basic Brewing Radio podcast on the subject from May 7th 2009: http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2009. In my experience, the dark candi syrup is even more advantageous to make at home because you save money. The podcast recommends not using lactic acit- I use .5 grams per 2 pounds of sugar. Also, if you want to make the dark syrup, you'll need to hold the temperature at 280 - 290F until the sugar turns very very dark (at least 15 minutes). Also, only bring the temp back up to 230 to make a good syrup consistency for the light syrup.

The Melanoiden Malt seems redundant-its basically the same thing as Aromatic, but is not belgian (correct me if I'm wrong).

The mash temp can be whatever you want, but traditionally these quads use a step mash from something like 145 to 162F to maximize conversion. If you do this I will attest that there will be plenty of un-attenuated sweetness left from the dark candi syrup.

The yeast is totally up to you. Also consider using spices though. I like licorice root, but coriander and grains of paradise are very common too.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

I agree buying candi syrup/sugar is a waste of money when you can make it. How would you sterilize the cane sugar if you didn't dissolve it in anything? (I am hesitant to add it to the boil, lazy yeast syndrome and all)

I have made my own syrup before, nice light amber, tasted like apricot . I thought the melanoiden could be overkill and glad I asked about it. Thanks for the idea on the step mash. never tried it, but I am willing to do anything once. With this beer, I think if I was going to add spices, I think I would only do licorice, probably with anise, but I will see where I go with that.


Thanks for the comments on the sugar. I will make sure to factor that in.

If your not interested in making the candy sugar but dont want to use cane sugar, there are a few places that sell granulated beet sugar for about $1/lbs.

If you are going to sterilize the sugar anyhow, just throw it in the pressure cooker. I use 15 lbs pressure and it darkens just slightly at that temp, 250F. Someone suggested that 10 lbs pressure would be 240F but I don't know that for sure.

Hey everyone.

So I am finally mustering up the courage to do a belgian quad. I am stoked. But I am adding so much sugar into the brew that I don't know what mash temp I should aim for. I want plenty of body but I still want to finish relatively dry (sub 1.020). The standing recipe is listed below. I want to know everyone's opinion of mash temp vs amount of sugar to add. I was lookin to mash at 153. I am also not totally against decreasing sugar and increasing base grain though it is not ideal. I will also say that I can not take grain out, I can only add. All grain besides the 2row is pre-mixed via Brewmasterswarehouse.

5.00 lb 2-row
5.00 lb Pilsner (I know, But I have 100lb of 2-row so might as well use some right)
3.00 lb Munich
1.50 lb Aromatic
0.75 lb special B
2.50 lb beet sugar
1.25 lb Belgian Candi syrup amber-dark (~140-160SRM)

-Hops are irrelevant for this topic
Yeast is a house blend from a mix of Bernardus and Ommegang yeast.

So I am curious where you would recommend the mash temp to be in order to achieve a 1.020 FG and still keep a reasonable amount of body.

Thanks in advance

Looks good and styrian goldings are the tradition hops for a quad.

I'd mash at 150. With that big of a grain bill you'll want all the fermentables you can to get it to finish somewhat low.

Mash on the low end. You don't need to mash too low if your yeast is sufficiently voracious.

Ditch the Aromatic and replace with 2-row. You're already brewing a malt bomb. You don't need to emphasize the malt with what I consider 200% of a wise amount of Aromatic.

As noted, pitch a voracious yeast. When I helped formulate the first commercial Quad sold in the US, we used Wyeast Trappist High Gravity and we pitched a LOT of it into really really well-aerated wort. I'm unfamiliar with the yeasts you plan to pitch, so I'll not comment other than to PITCH A LOT OF IT. Use the Mr Malty calculator to see how much slurry you'll need. Then I'd increase that by at least 20%, probably 25%. Go for 1 million cells per ml per °P, not the 0.75 JZ recommends for ales.

We also brewed 5bbl per brew and knocked out twice into a 10bbl fermenter. That gave about 4 hours of lag-time for the first pitch and another shot of O2 when the second batch was knocking out. You might want to think about that; instead of brewing the entire brew length in one go, brew two half-size batches. Pitch for your full brew length into the first half-batch, then leave it overnight and knock out the other half the next day; you should have krauesen in the tank already, and knocking out again will send the yeast into overdrive.

We added all sugar to the kettle and never had to worry about slow yeast. Presumably that's because of the pitch.

Cheers,

Bob

Thanks for the info Bob, but as I said, I can not remove the aromatic. It is already pre-mixed with everything but the 2row. I am using a blend of St. Bernardus, and Ommegang yeast that is currently settling down in a yeast cake of a belgian pale ale. I fully plan to use a majority of the yeast cake on this guy. I will only take enough out to wash and add to my yeast bank. And it shouldn't be a complete malt bomb, I altered the recipe a bit to give it close to the upper IBU limit according to BJCP (30ish). and I plan on using fermcap which will add approx. 10% more IBU. But regardless, I will let you know how it turns out.

Sorry, I missed that the grist was already mixed.

Remember, balance isn't all about BU:GU. It's a really complex issue, and definitely not one which can be realistically expressed numerically.

Please do let us know how it turns out! Quad is a very challenging style to brew well.

Cheers!

Bob

It should also be known that special B is essentially dark crystal malt so this will add a significant amount of unfermentable sugar to your wort. Personally, for a dark strong or quad I would limit all specialty grains as much as possible, mash low and incrementally feed sugars, get your color from darker candi sugar..

This all being said with your current situation, mash low, use tons of nutrient, oxygenate well and incrementally feed your sugar....and ramp up that temp at the end.

The Nutrient shouldn't be a problem as oxygenation. I definitely agree on the sugar, I will adding it 1/2-3/4lb/day once fermentation is past half way. I plan to get the temp up to the mid 70s after primary is over.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.