Help with barley wine recipe

Here's the 6 gallon recipe I'm working on for next weeks brew day. I need advice on both the grain and hops bill. I'm looking for a biscuity malt profile and hoping for a bit of complex sweetness from the darker crystal malts and special B.

1. I can only mash about 18lbs of grains comfortably, so my options are to cut the recipe down to 4 gallons or do the full 6 gallons and sub 8 lbs of marris otter for 5lbs of light DME. I'm undecided at this point, but I think I might not have the desired malt profile with the DME.

2. For the hops, I want it to be mellow, but slightly spicy. How does it look?

3. I don't want it to be too sweet, so I'm thinking the 148F mash will help with attenuation. I also added the flaked barley to help with body since it will be a low mash temp.

This is my first barley wine, so critique away!! I'll probably start drinking this after 3 months of aging and save several bombers to age for a year.

Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0

Ingredients

18.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 69.2 %
5.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 19.2 %
1.00 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 3.8 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3.8 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 1.9 %
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 1.9 %

1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 25.6 IBU
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50%] (45 min) Hops 23.0 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00%] (30 min) Hops 7.7 IBU
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50%] (30 min) Hops 6.9 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00%] (15 min) Hops 4.0 IBU
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50%] (15 min) Hops 3.6 IBU

3qt starter from washed pacman slurry (liquid decanted)

Est Original Gravity: 1.112 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.024
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 11.6 %
Bitterness: 70.8 IBU
Est Color: 21.0 SRM


Mash Profile

BIAB mash at 148F 75mins
Mashout 168F
Sparge to pre-boil level (pour 168F water over grain bag and squeeze bag)

Thanks for the help!

I would drop the crystal alltogether. If you're set on using the crystal, then I would significantly reduce the amount.

Also, if you have another pot or cooler (be careful that you don't get converted away from BIAB), you could mash the extra 7-8 lbs. in a separately. But I know a lot of people make up the difference with DME/LME

Yeah, that is way too much crystal, especially if you "don't want it to sweet". Though I wouldn't lose it entirely either - a half pound of the crystal 60 should be good.

Bierliebhaber said:

be careful that you don't get converted away from BIAB

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Now that is just silly. Why would somebody need to "be careful" of making a legitimate personal choice, especially if it's for the sake of functionality?

Thanks for the input!

So what about using .5 or .75 lbs of the 120 and just leaving out the 60? I like the flavor of the darker crystal malts a lot. Or will the specialB give enough caramel flavors? I haven't used specialB yet, so it's an unknown quantity for me.

What I'm looking for is the deep caramel flavors of the dark crystal malts and the specialB. That flavor has to be there, but I don't want it to be overly sweet.

The other alternative is to increase the specialB a little and leave out the crystal altogether. Or is .5lb plenty?

The only other pot I have is just 10qts. It's only good for heating up my sparge water.

How about this?

Option 1
18.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 69.2 %
6.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 23.1 %
1.00 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 3.8 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 1.9 %
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 1.9 %

Option 2
18.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 69.9 %
6.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 23.3 %
1.00 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 3.9 %
0.75 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.9 %


Don't worry, I won't stop doing BIAB until I can afford a dedicated stainless mash tun and have the space for it. Until then, I really enjoy the simplicity of it since I'm brewing in a cramped kitchen.

I would do option 1 but stick with the 60L. Special B really needs to be used sparingly as well, but with that combination I think you'll get what you're looking for anyways.

The 120L will honestly be way too much IMO, especially with the Special B. In fact, I'd probably go with some Caravienne instead of the 120 or 60.

I didn't think of the caravienne. Maybe I'll try .5lbs of that instead of the 120 and keep the .5 specialB.

How different do you think this would turn out if I added 5lbs of LDME and only did 10 lbs of marris otter?

Depends on the particular brand of extract you happen to be using, but it shouldn't be a big deal.

emjay said:

Now that is just silly. Why would somebody need to "be careful" of making a legitimate personal choice, especially if it's for the sake of functionality?

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Folks, this is what we call, "my attempt at humor."

Ah, BIABers are often absurdly fanatical, so it wasn't hard to take it seriously

Call me crazy, but I would add some "highly fermentables" in there. You know... Like sugar type stuff. Honey, sugar, candy, agave, something to lighten it up. Its been awhile since I read my barleywine book.

I want it thick. It should end up around 11%abv as it is.

seabass07 said:

I want it thick. It should end up around 11%abv as it is.

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Thick, then ignore my comment. You're good with no sugar.

Is there really anything wrong with the original recipe? Your crystal is around 6 percent, not a huge number. Maybe drop the 60 to half pound. Maybe get something in their to build body back up a little.

Experimenting is what homebrewing is about. Brew your recipe, and see how it comes out. Then make adjustments. Theres nothing majorly wrong with your recipe. Brew it and decide for yourself. Dont let an online forum decide for you.

I only question the recipe because I don't have enough experience with some ingredients. I dont know how much unfermentable sugar the crystal malts contribute. A big beer is expensive and I don't want to mess it up. Ill be dissapointed if its too sweet.

He's asking for advice - nothing wrong with that. Balance is probably the most difficult part of recipe design for newer brewers, and most of them would start off by just following other people's recipes to the T - so the OP is already at least one step ahead and has a good idea of what he wants. Asking for advice, critiques, tweaks, etc, is something that people do all the time on the forums and will continue to do, and people all have their own reasons l, so trying to make it seem like a bad thing is absolutely ridiculous. Barleywines are a relatively big investment in terms of both time and money for a just a single batch of beer that might turn out undrinkable, and so there's even more reason than their typically would be to seek a bit of help. He wants advice, people are giving it to him, and ultimately only he decides which advice to go with, or whether to ignore it all and just stick to the original draft of the recipe, so he retains the creative control the entire time. There's also absolutely no reason he can't further experiment with an adjusted recipe instead of the one in his original post.

Now... 6% isn't normally a big deal, but 6% of a barleywine grain bill is quite a bit different from 6% of a more typical beer, especially if you want something drinkable, and not too sweet, as he said. And I take it you're not hugely familiar with Special B, because it's also a crystal malt, and (AFAIK) it happens to be the darkest one (150L) at that. So not only is his recipe actually about 8% crystal, but it's largely made up of incredibly dark ones in particular that need to be used much more sparingly than lighter ones because it really doesn't take much of them to result in a beer that's overly sweet and cloying.

As I said before, I would personally switch out the crystal 60 and 120 for a half-pound of caravienne, which in my opinion (and based on my experience) is more than adequate when combined with the Special B. I strongly recommend this change, but ultimately the OP chooses whether or not to take my advice in whole or in part, and the same goes for anyone else trying to help him out. And there's nothing to stop him from further experimenting with this recipe even if he does take some advice, as you kind of wrongly implied. This forum is and community is here for precisely this sort of thing - it's fine if you personally want to treat homebrewing and the creative aspects of it as someone being strictly an individual thing, but don't come into an obviously community-oriented thread like this on a community-oriented website such as HBT and criticize people who clearly don't share the belief that everybody ought to be flying completely solo for whatever reason.

seabass07 said:

I only question the recipe because I don't have enough experience with some ingredients. I dont know how much unfermentable sugar the crystal malts contribute. A big beer is expensive and I don't want to mess it up. Ill be dissapointed if its too sweet.

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If you want to ensure that you get a great recipe on an expensive beer, consider using a tried and true recipe. Brewing Classic Styles has two Barleywine recipes. Zymurgy did a feature on Barleywines a couple of issues ago. There is no shame in using a recipe instead of making your own. In fact, I think it can be better because it is a test of your process, not recipe building skills. With such an expensive and time-consuming style, why not?

Eric

EricCSU said:

If you want to ensure that you get a great recipe on an expensive beer, consider using a tried and true recipe. Brewing Classic Styles has two Barleywine recipes. Zymurgy did a feature on Barleywines a couple of issues ago. There is no shame in using a recipe instead of making your own. In fact, I think it can be better because it is a test of your process, not recipe building skills. With such an expensive and time-consuming style, why not?

Eric

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Because I know what I want and I get pride from making my own recipes. It's the best way for me to put everything I've learned to use. It's also less of a risk with so many people on here that have more experience with more grains than I do.

I've looked at a lot of barleywine recipes to see what others are doing. I like experimenting...especially when I can get a lot of advice on recipes here.

No one has commented on the hop schedule. I guess I was sidetracked by all the crystal (relatively speaking). For the hops I don't really see any reason for hop additions between 60 and 20 minutes. I would move your 45min NB to 60min and put your 30min additions in as FWH (first wort hopping). Especially with a barley wine that will age, the FWH will provide a hop character that will age better, IMO.

If he's going to do that then, I would definitely leave the NB @ 45min

I'm a bit of a fan of FWH, but I think the novelty of the whole idea has it being overused a lot these days unnecessarily, so it's not something I'd recommend - especially with a first time brew where the results can't be compared against the same beer but with just a normal hopping schedule instead.

I'm assuming this is an English Barleywine, and while I love hops (just cracked open a IIPA), I think you might be going a bit too high on the IBUs for such a beer to be enjoyable as a barleywine ought to be - in fact, it'll probably more characteristic of an IIPA. Sure, the 70IBU IPA is technically permitted according to the BJCP as the absolute MAX - but that also "technically" means going jusr 0.1 IBU over is suddenly out of style!!!

In all seriousness though, if you really like hops and bitterness that much, then more power to you - no reason to be a total style kazoo unless you're brewing for competition. But keep in mind that, especially for homebrew examples, your beer will require a very extended aging process, during which aroma and flavor will fade significantly, if not completely, and.you'll be left with a bitter, high-alcohol beer that many people might not find very drink, and I say that with an IIPA in my glass, and about a case's worth of a Pliny The Elder clone (that I brewed bigger and hoppier than the recipe called for.)

If you're open to reworking the hop schedule a bit, then I have some ideas I can throw at you, but if such high hop bitterness (especially for an EBW) with minimal hop and aroma contributions, is what you're aiming for... well it ain't my thing, but it's cool

I don't think were looking at the same scales for ibu. According to beersmith the range is from 50-100ibu. Its at 70 reager while the others scales put it at 40 or 50. I was leaving out a lot of aroma hops because I want to age it. I prefer more hops flavor than bitterness but after 6 months I don't expect much flavor. I guess I could add tons of aroma additions to have some after aging but I was under the impression that the late additions would only contribute bitterness after aging.

seabass07 said:

I don't think were looking at the same scales for ibu. According to beersmith the range is from 50-100ibu. Its at 70 reager while the others scales put it at 40 or 50. I was leaving out a lot of aroma hops because I want to age it. I prefer more hops flavor than bitterness but after 6 months I don't expect much flavor. I guess I could add tons of aroma additions to have some after aging but I was under the impression that the late additions would only contribute bitterness after aging.

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That's why I recommended the 30 min additions to be FWH additions. All you do is throw them in the pot and drain your first runnings on them. The FWHs will give you that slightly spicy flavor you're looking for, and it will last longer than a boil addition. With the OG that you're planning for, the higher IBUs will work, IMO.

That's just my $.02 and that could be after inflation.

And I'm opened to any ideas since this recipe is still a work in progress until I pick up ingredients on tuesday.

If I was making a IIPA that wouldn't be aged, I'd at least double the late additions and add 5 and 0 additions as well. I would like a good amount of spice and floral aromas from the hops, but haven't aged any beers yet, so I haven't had a chance to experiment with that yet.

seabass07 said:

I don't think were looking at the same scales for ibu. According to beersmith the range is from 50-100ibu. Its at 70 reager while the others scales put it at 40 or 50. I was leaving out a lot of aroma hops because I want to age it. I prefer more hops flavor than bitterness but after 6 months I don't expect much flavor. I guess I could add tons of aroma additions to have some after aging but I was under the impression that the late additions would only contribute bitterness after aging.

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Yeah, I guess what I was suggesting is something more simple like removing the 45 or 60 minute addition altogether. FWH is not going to help flavor and aroma after the kind of aging a Barleywine would require.

Bierliebhaber said:

That's why I recommended the 30 min additions to be FWH additions. All you do is throw them in the pot and drain your first runnings on them. The FWHs will give you that slightly spicy flavor you're looking for, and it will last longer than a boil addition. With the OG that you're planning for, the higher IBUs will work, IMO.

That's just my $.02 and that could be after inflation.

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I may give that a try. I'd just add them in after I remove the bag.

It's also hard to judge ibu's with so many different formulas. A couple of commercial examples I've had were the stone old guardian and the sierra nevada bigfoot. I know these are american barleywines with tons of hops. According to the rager scale, the old guardian (clone recipe) is at 103IBUs. It's definitely way more bitterness than I want. So I went for 70 knowing that the scale is high.

What scales are you guys using?

Currently, I have my software set to average the two scales.

Tinseth and rager?

Yep. But on some styles, like a hefe or malty style, I'll error on the higher scale, rager(?). That is, if I essentially just want to say there are hops in it.

seabass07 said:

And I'm opened to any ideas since this recipe is still a work in progress until I pick up ingredients on tuesday.

If I was making a IIPA that wouldn't be aged, I'd at least double the late additions and add 5 and 0 additions as well. I would like a good amount of spice and floral aromas from the hops, but haven't aged any beers yet, so I haven't had a chance to experiment with that yet.

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Okay, I would strongly suggest switching the bittering hop to Challenger (an English variety), at it should provide a smoother bitterness. Failing that, you can even bitter with EKG. One bittering addition at 60° is enough, really. I would shoot for maybe 50 IBUs tinseth.

And then, after looking at all my references, it seems your aroma and flavor additions are extremely high. I would cut them in half (at the very minimum) - you can change them all to 0.5oz, but I would personally just drop the fuggles.

Of course, all of this makes the already not-so-good idea of FWH a very bad one.

But you could even just do a single hop Barleywine with EKG which isn't out of the ordinary at, but should definitely be interesting and delicious!

My LHBS doesn't have challenger. My choices seem to be Northern brewer or magnum. I know they are both german, but the NB seems like it would fit the profile I'm looking for.

Now that I look at my LHBS, it looks like they don't have any EKG, just US goldings. I'll have to use those instead. I'll consider using the USG as bittering instead of the NG. I would likely get more flavor out of it in that case right?

Out of curiosity, why should I cut the aroma/flavor hops in half? And why is FWH a bad idea for this beer? Would you expound on this? Just to clarify, my original hops schedule was at 50IBU tinseth.

Keep in mind that my goal is not to be within guidelines, but to end up with a delicious beer with some (even just a hint) hops spice remaining after 6 months. I like both english and american barleywines. I'd like for it to be closer to the american style, but with english hops and less bitterness. This is definitely not for a competition.

So here's the final recipe I went with...

6 Gallon (5.75 made it to the fermenter)
IBU: 64(rager) 45(tinseth)
Actual OG: 1.115

5.00 lb Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 21.7 %
10.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 43.5 %
6.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 26.1 %
1.00 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 4.3 %
0.50 lb Caravienne Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 2.2 %
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.2 %

3.00 oz Goldings, US [5.70%] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) (leaf) Hops 50.7 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, US [5.70%] (20 min) (leaf) Hops 5.8 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, US [5.70%] (10 min) (leaf) Hops 4.1 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, US [5.70%] (5 min) (leaf) Hops 2.6 IBU

I hit all the numbers, so I'll see where the FG ends up. Beersmith says 1.025, but I'm expecting more like 1.020 from the 148F mash and crapload of pacman yeast. I ended up with a recipe that should fall right in the english barley wine guidelines.

Hopefully when I do this again, I'll be able to do it without having to use DME. I'd also like to increase the boil to 120 minutes.

Thanks again for all of the advice!

It's been in primary for 2 weeks. The current SG is about 1.017! I'm not 100% sure it's done though. After a week, it was at 1.022. So in the last week it's gone down 5 points. I roused it just for good measure. It's got a lot of hops spice, and is a little sweet. Definitely not cloying in the slightest. It tastes very balanced except a little too spicy. Considering it will age for another 3 months to a year, I think I will end up with exactly what I was looking for.

It's definitely a sipper, but already tasty...even at 12.8%ABV.

Took a sample yesterday. It's down to 1.012. That puts it at 13.6%ABV. There's no alcohol heat at all. This is one sneaky beer!

The caravienne was a great suggestion! It gives it a soft fruity sweetness.

Any updates on how this one turned out? Looking to brew my first barleywine in a little while and your recipe looks similar to the direction I wanted to go in, at least as far as the grain bill goes. Personally, I don't mind my barleywines a little on the sweet side, so I was thinking of something similar to what you brewed but with a touch of English Dark Crystal. Thinking of using some Victory as well.

For the hops, I'm leaning to the American citrus/piny side of things (probably Chinook with some Simcoe and/or Amarillo), but I'm not sure on how I want to handle the hops schedule. I'm wondering how the hops character of your brew turned out after a bit of aging.