Brew 4 gallons instead of 5?

Hi,

Looking to brew a thick, heavy beer. Someone told me that if I use a 5 gallons' worth of ingredients but only make 4 gallons of beer, I'll have a thicker and heavier brew. While I'm not entirely concerned with heaviness (ABV), I'm mainly concerned with getting a thicker mouthfeel.

Anyone hear or know about this technique?

THANKS.

nigel31 said:

Hi,

I'm mainly concerned with getting a huge, thick mouthfeel.

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Besides this sounding extremely disturbing... Ah hemmm. What ingredients are you using?

I would think under most circumstances this theory won't work.... are you doing extract or AG brewing?

Hey,

I'll be doing an extract brew of a wee heavy. It'll be the Norther Brewer wee heavy kit:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/scottish-wee-heavy-extract-kit-2.html

I'll also be adding a gallon of maple syrup to the secondary for a big, sweet, maple flavor and body. I know, it may be over the top, but my taste buds go for sweet, malt-forward beers.

I'm looking to make it with a big mouthfeel (perhaps obviously), and I heard that making 4 gallons' worth with 5 gallons of ingredients might help to this end.

Any ideas, constructive criticism, reasons for or against are appreciated.

Cheers.

That liquid Yeast seems to finish heavier than the Nottingham. If you're going for heavy, you could try that (or someone can recommend a less attenuating dry yeast that's not estery). Note that if you use a liquid yeast, you'll HAVE to make a starter for that gravity.

A gallon of maple syrup doesn't sound right. IIRC maple syrup is highly fermentable, so a gallon of it (aside from costing you an arm and a leg) will raise your alcohol level by 4%, and drop your final gravity. I think you're better served steeping/mini-mashing some maltier grains. I don't know the scottish style, so I can't say what grains exactly would give a maltier taste and stay in-style.

Also, that's a fairly high gravity beer already, and a low-ish attenuating yeast. I don't think you should concentrate it any more.

Hello,

I will be using the Wyeast 1728 Scottish Yeast as a matter of fact, and yes, I'll most certainly be doing a big enough starter for it. Thanks.

You do recall correctly in that maple syrup's almost entirely fermentable. There's a brew called Equinoxe du Printemps (Spring Equinox) by Dieu Du Ciel!, a Canadian brewery, that's a wee heavy made with maple syrup. I want to work with that idea but make it more mapley than their brew so that it's absolutely noticeable. John Palmer, in How to Brew, says that if one wants a "noticeable maple flavor," they should use a gallon of Grade B maple syrup and add it to the secondary, which is just the advice I'd planned on following.

The maple just may up the ABV (lower the FG), I know, and maple syrup certainly isn't "to style," but it's something of a hybrid brew and again, similar to (but sweeter than) something I already like a lot. For me, it can always be sweeter and maltier. I know I'm crazy, but my taste buds don't dig any hint of bitter and really love maltiness. This would be putting two great tastes together for me, and I wanted to get a suitably heavy feel to it.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts and opinions. Greatly apprecaited. Perhaps I won't add quite as much syrup, but I do want a maple- and malt-forward Scotch ale. Maybe I ought to stick with 5 gallons and forget experimenting with the 4-gallons-of-liquid thing this time. You've given me good food (drink? haha) for thought.

maybe you could throw in some malto-dextrin for some additional mouth-feel...

http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewi...inings/beer-additives/malto-dextrin-8-oz.html

I was thinking along the same lines . . . but for a different reason . . .
I want to use 5 gallon carboys for primaries with Lagers.
This is what I was thinking . . . Scale down to a 4 gallon batch OR a 5 gallon Carboy and a 1.4 gallon glass wine jug. It will take up a little extra room but if I'm not limited to space would this be an option ??? After Primary they both go into a 5 gallon carboy for Lagering.
This is kinda with what the OP is thinking of doing but with a different end result.

Maybe this is completely and I should start a different thread.

a big, sweet, maple flavor and body

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No
No
No
and No

Adding maple syrup will not do any of the things you want. The sugar ferments out and maple without sugar is nasty.

David, what do you mean that maple syrup won't do what I want? Be a bit clearer. It will have to, when added to the secondary, give the brew a maple flavor. Perhaps you're confusing it with boiling the syrup in with the wort? I know that doing that will boil off a lot of the flavor, but adding it to the secondary for almost two months will have to help reach my goal.

I'm listening....

according to homebrew formulator maple syrup produces a dry woody flavor if boiled. however, it does suggest bottling with it to achieve the maple syrup flavor.

i have never used maple syrup but thats what homebrew formulator says. dry and woody does not sound tasty.

That beer will probably finish 1.022-1.024 which should give plenty of mouthfeel. The thing you have to worry about with only using 4 gallons is oxidation, in a beer that won't be aging long its not really a problem, however with the strength of this recipe it will need to be aged for a bit. Imho, i would brew the kit the was it is, so how you look it, and then decide on any changes for the next time you brew it.

I agree 100%. Dry and woody is not at ALL what I'm going for; more like a sweet, lingering maple finish.

nigel31 said:

David, what do you mean that maple syrup won't do what I want? Be a bit clearer. It will have to, when added to the secondary, give the brew a maple flavor. Perhaps you're confusing it with boiling the syrup in with the wort? I know that doing that will boil off a lot of the flavor, but adding it to the secondary for almost two months will have to help reach my goal.

I'm listening....

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Adding maple syrup will make the beer THINNER.

Adding sweet sugar does not make a beer sweet. The yeast eats the sugar and makes the beer dry and thin. To add body and sweetness you should add unfermentable sugars. Crystal malt is a good source of unfermentable sugars. Malto dextrine can be used to add body and mouthfeel. 2 lbs of crystal and 8 oz of malto dextrine will make your beer very sweet and chunky. Do the full 5 gallons do not cut it down to 4.

Hmmmm. Two in a row say that maple syrup will make my beer thinner. Well, I'm not adding the syrup to thicken it up, but for the flavor in it.

Assuming I add the syrup to the secondary and gently/quietly rack on top of it, then let it sit for about two months, do you still feel that it'll dry/thin out my beer? I certainly don't want a dry flavor....

I'd be very interested to learn any reasoning behind this, be it a quote from a book or just someone rattling off what they've heard or know from experience.

Thanks to all; I'll await the explanation.

nigel31 said:

Hmmmm. Two in a row say that maple syrup will make my beer thinner. Well, I'm not adding the syrup to thicken it up, but for the flavor in it.

Assuming I add the syrup to the secondary and gently/quietly rack on top of it, then let it sit for about two months, do you still feel that it'll dry/thin out my beer? I certainly don't want a dry flavor....

I'd be very interested to learn any reasoning behind this, be it a quote from a book or just someone rattling off what they've heard or know from experience.

Thanks to all; I'll await the explanation.

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if you add the syrup to the secondary the yeast will eat it all up and make the beer thinner. Also, you will grow a new crop of yeast in your secondary and they will form a krausen and you will need to wait for that to clear out. What is the purpose of the secondary? Why add the syrup to the secondary? If your gonna add syrup do it in the primary with the bulk of the fermentation. But either way it will reduce the body of the beer.

One other option that hasn't been discussed is to cook the syrup. This could cause additional melanoidins and dextrines to form (ala molasses) that are more complex/less fermentable. I'm not entirely sure of what the flavor effect would be, but it would be more aggressive than Grade B syrup. The only other option that I see is putting the syrup into the secondary for a day then cold crashing the beer to knock out the yeast. But again, this is risky as you won't know what you have until it's done...

nigel31 said:

David, what do you mean that maple syrup won't do what I want? Be a bit clearer. It will have to, when added to the secondary, give the brew a maple flavor. Perhaps you're confusing it with boiling the syrup in with the wort? I know that doing that will boil off a lot of the flavor, but adding it to the secondary for almost two months will have to help reach my goal.

I'm listening....

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This answer is about HONEY, BUT it really is pretty much the same about adding ANY flavor that is sugar based. Mollases, Maple, anything.

Revvy said:

If your recipe called for actual honey, then that's why it is dry.

When you add honey you are actually doing more to boost the ABV and dry the beer out, than to actually get any honey flavor.

That's the thing with people adding honey to beer, they really AREN'T getting much honey flavor in their beer, because it is fermenting away to alcohol, like making mead.

Which unless you kill fermentation and back sweeten with honey that won't ferment, really doesn't have that much of a sweet honey flavor.

To get a real honey flavor, use the darkest you can find, with the most concentration of flavor, or even better, use Gambrinus honey malt ProBrewer Interactive - View Single Post - Honey Malt

So if you put a lot of honey in, it will have the same basic affect as adding table sugar to it...it's going to dry out and thin the beer.

If people want a real honey taste then ad some honey malt to your grainbill you will be surprised...it will taste like most people want honey beers to taste.

In bottling the same thing is going to happen....only a little bit of "honey flavor" is going to come through, because most of it will ferment out. And it is really hard to control how much flavor is going to be left over. One thing to consider would be to use the darkest honey possible, so there is unfermentable left behind.

(Like bottling with brown sugar or even mollasses.)

I did an amazing Belgian Dark Strong with a couple pounds of Honey malt, and it was like what a honey beer SHOULD taste like.

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The next think I want to know for you who asked these questions.

Is this you first or under 5th batch of beer?

If the answer is "yes" then don't mess with your current kit/recipe, and instead Next time buy a kit or brew a recipe that ALREADY has whatever ingredient you want to throw in, rather than monkeying with an established recipe/kit.

I know you guys 'think" that there's something inherently wrong with whatever recipe/kit you are brewing. But that isn't the case.

The truth is you don't know what the heck you're doing yet!

My take on this is that there is a difference between true experimentation and throwing things together "willy nilly." I have noticed on here is that a lot of noobs think what they are doing is experimentation, when in reality they are just throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks.

Throwing a bunch of stuff in your fermenter and seeing what you get at the end, and ending up making an "is my beer ruined" thread is not the same thing as experimenting.

To me, in order to experiment truly, you have to have an understanding of the fundamentals. You have to know how the process works somewhat. You have to have an understanding of how different ingredients or processes affect the final product. You may even need to know, or at least understand something about beer styles, and what goes into making one beer a Porter and another a pale ale. And where your concoction will fall on the continuoum.

To me it's like cooking or even Jazz. But going back to the cooking analogy. Coming up with a balanced and tasty recipe takes some understanding of things...just like cooking...dumping a cup of salt will more than likely ruin a recipe...so if you cook, you KNOW not to do that...it's the same with brewing...you get an idea with experience and looking at recipes, brewing and playing with software how things work..what flavors work with each other, etc...

That to me is the essence of creating...I have gotten to a point where I understand what I am doing, I get how ingredients work or don't work with each other, so I am not just throwing a bunch of stuff together to see what I get.

I have an idea of what I want it to taste like, and my challenge then is to get the right combination of ingredients to match what is in my head. That's also pretty much how I come up with new food recipes as well.

You'll get there....a LOT sooner, if you focus on the fundamentals, and get your processes in order...rather than just playing around.

You'll also save more money that way.....

Why do you ALL feel, without even tasting the finished beer, that you need to "jazz" up the beer? Do you know more about recipe creation and balancing a beer, than the folks that created the recipe and risked untold amounts of money on putting that kit together?

It's not going to need any tweaking from an amatuer brewing his first couple of batches, who understands very little about the brewing process, how ingrediants go about balancing a recipe, or what ingredients does which.

I firmly believe initially that you should brew your first few kits, and recipes "as is" not messing willy nilly with them til you understand the process...

Beer recipes are a balance...and if you add to one variable, that will affect other parts of it...For example if you decide to raise the gravity of a balanced beer...a beer where the hops balance out the sweetness...and you raise the maltniness of it without alaso balancing the hops, then your beer may end up being way too cloyingly sweet.

So for the first few batches just concentrate on the process, and also learn as much as possible. Each time you brew, you will learn something new.

I f you want a hoppier beer, brew a hoppier kit/recipe. You want fruit, buy a fruit beer kit/brew a fruit beer recipe, you want honey, or maple syrup, you'll find plenty of recipes/kits to fit your bill.....

But thinking about tweaking a recipe from an established kit designer is sort of like wanting to go from paint by numbers to wanting to help restore the Mona Lisa, and wanting to make an "improvement" here or there.

You have a long history of brewing ahead of you, you don't have to cram everything into your first batch....learn about what works first before you start playing around.

That's my take on it, you can do with it what you will. I just believe "can I add THIS to my kit", is NOT the best way to go about learning anything.

Revvy,

First off, thanks for the care put into the post. Sincerely.

Here's the deal. My taste buds are such that I don't like most beers; I only really enjoy--and therefore only drink--the ones that are very, very sweet. (e.g., Southern Tier Choklat and Creme Brulee Imp. Stouts, some sweeter wee heavies, Goose Island Bourbon County Stout, EKU 28, J.W. Lees 2001 [preferably--very sweet, mapley, caramelly brew, and my all-time fave], sweet barleywines/stouts, et al.) I wish it weren't so, but it is. I usually can't find what I like at bars; as such, I'm looking to brew some very sweet, very IMbalanced beers to please my palate and make myself happy. I recognize that IMBALANCE is not what most strive for in a brew, but for me to enjoy it, it almost has to be that way.

I love maple syrup--and enjoy Dieu Du Ciel's maple wee heavy--so figured that, for my third brew (both so far with supervision from a 5-year-brewing friend/mentor), I'd do what I've been itching to do. I'm sure that the Northern Brewer Wee Heavy kit is great for the style, but I've had some heavies I like a lot and others I'm not so sure about (not sweet enough for my palate, you see). I've read everything I could find online regarding brewing with maple syrup and have scoured the brewing bibles for ideas and thoughts/facts regarding what to add, when to add it, how to add it, etc.

Of course I don't know too much at this point, but figured that, since I've read that this type of thing (maple in the secondary) has been done with success, I thought I'd take a crack at it.

My main concern is brewing up a big batch of beer that's not to my (unique and kind of pain-in-the-ass-at-times) taste (not sweet enough) and waiting 4 months or so to discover this. I'd like to think that, with my research, I'm not doing it "willy nilly" as I've read about others doing it this way. Do you still feel I'm all mixed up? (I can take an honest answer.)

It's not me thinking I can outdo the Northern Brewer kit makers (they know their stuff, I'm certain), but more that I'd like maple in my wee heavy and thought that adding a quantity (gallon) to the secondary wouldn't be too risky. Kind of liking some licorice in one's stout and adding it to the secondary for flavor to an existing kit.

If not in the secondary, is there some other way you feel that I can get a nice, maple flavor in my brew? (With honey, there's always honey malt, I know--good point--but with maple, what is there? Maple essence? If so, I haven't read anything on that.)

THANKS for the time you've all taken to help me out here. I'm learning by the minute.

You've been Revved!

But seriously, there's one more factor here that's the gravity of this beer. It's already a 1.083 OG beer, and that's not a particularly hungry yeast. If you added something over the yeast cake on primary, it might ferment away, but on the secondary, without a yeast cake, chances are the yeast won't even bother waking up at all, and you'll end up with something HORRIBLY sweet and unbalanced, like drinking maple syrup directly from the jar. This beer is already very heavy and malty (quite unbalanced to the sweet side). You really can't push that balance more to the sweet side.

Really, if you want to make a Maple beer, search the web and you'll sure find a maple beer recipe (or modify a honey beer recipe). But modifying this one will most likely ruin a batch of beer, and in this case, waste THREE MONTHS of your time, and more important, of your fermenter's time. You don't want to wait 3 months to figure out you stalled your pipeline and ruined your beer. If you want to experiment, at least experiment with a fast turnaround beer.

from the beers you have described I think you just want a recipe that is got lots of malt and use a yeast that will is not highly attenuative and will emphasis the malt flavors.

The scotch ale fermented with an English strain at a low temp would probably be a good fit for you.

qvantamon said:

Really, if you want to make a Maple beer, search the web and you'll sure find a maple beer recipe (or modify a honey beer recipe). But modifying this one will most likely ruin a batch of beer, and in this case, waste THREE MONTHS of your time, and more important, of your fermenter's time. You don't want to wait 3 months to figure out you stalled your pipeline and ruined your beer. If you want to experiment, at least experiment with a fast turnaround beer.

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+1,000 that's what I'm getting at. Look for recipes, especially clones of the beer you like. Look at different recipes and see what's similar between many and different. Try to get a handle on what goes into the beers you like, what malts they use, what hops, and what yeast. Heck half the time Microbreweries freely put that info on their websites, and many even put scaled down recipes or percentages of grist there for homebrewers.

Also nigel31, if you want to play around with a recipe, then make small batches. You can make a batch as small as 3/4 of a gallon in a 1 gallon wine jug, just like the Basic brewing guys do.

Or make a 2.5 gallon test batch. You can even use a mr beer keg for a great 2.5 gallon fermenter.

And then when you nail it, make it as big as you want to. It's all easily scalable. And most software will do it for you.

I do a lot of experimental test batches in 2.5 gallon forms, tweaking them until I like them enough to scale up to 5 gallons. Usually what I do is in the winter I brew a bunch of small batch all grain test recipes on my stove. Then I enter many of those in contests in the spring and summer for the feed back, and I keep doing that till I nail down my recipe.

Also like I said, read about how the ingredients work with each other, how to balance a recipe if you want it balanced, or how to push something be it maltiness, or bitterness,.

And this is a good book to look at as well, http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381500/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

But seriously, just dumping another ingredient into an established recipe is NOT the best way to go.

As you can see by not understanding that most flavored "sugars" like honey or mollases or maple syrup will actually ferment out, means you are not quite "there" yet. But you will be one of these days.

Qvantamon,

Big thanks for your words. Surely there must be a way to impart a solid maple flavor to my wee heavy, no? Maybe not a gallon (How to Brew states that a gallon would be needed for "noticeable maple flavor"), but maybe half a gallon?

I'm honestly not trying to be difficult or crazy here. Please keep in mind that I don't really enjoy "balanced" beers, so it'd be nigh on impossible for me to brew up something "horribly" sweet. I really prefer malta--the dark, syrupy-sweet Latino malt beverage/soft drink (essentially, very sweet wort, as there's malt and hops [BARELY] but no yeast)--to most beers. It's all a matter of pleasing my tastebuds. What most people call "cloying" and/or "undrinkable" is right up my alley; just how my taste buds are dialled in, for better or for worse.

Please keep in mind that I've read others' accounts on using maple syrup (with great results) and am essentially copying their recipes/experiences.

I think you've got the best advice from a bunch of people on here and are still set on doing what you want to do. I say go for it and after it comes out a dud, come back and reread this thread. Do a little more research on styles of beer and figure out what you like then get a kit you think you'll enjoy.

Or you could just be like ELF and throw maple syrup in your beer.

Michael,

You're not contributing anything here. Why bother answering?

Seriously, I'm asking people how they feel I can best get a good maple flavor in my beer. If you've got an answer to that, then I'll be very happy to listen; otherwise, the old "I told you so" doesn't go very far.

I fully respect what people have said, and I'm NOT set on doing it anyway; at this point, I'm asking for another way to do it and still get the result I'd like--that perhaps, though I did a ton of research, I still wasn't getting it right.

What kind of style research would you suggest I do? I know my wee heavies inside and out and have read dozens of recipes, and I like maple--especially in a a maple wee heavy I've tried (and am essentially trying to replicate/outdo). What else should I look for, really? If someone out there can find me a kit with maple that's sweet and malty, I'll buy four of 'em.

Or maybe you haven't read what I've really said in my posts.

who makes this maple wee heavy? Call the brewer and ask them how they do it

nigel,

my worry here is that commercial breweries can do things that you can't do until you learn some more. Its completely possible that this brewery is using some sort of chemical to kill their yeast, adding the maple syrup, and then force carbing.

Shoot them an email or a phone call and ask them what they do. Chances are, they'll tell you.

maida7 said:

who makes this maple wee heavy? Call the brewer and ask them how they do it

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Yup, Google the name of the beer, and then if it says the brewery name google that. First you'll find the beer advocate reviews, and some other mentions but you will about 90% of the time find the brewery's website.

Like for example stone's website give decent info on their beers.

http://www.stonebrew.com/porter/

Rogues give's pretty detailed info on their beers including grainbills.

http://www.rogue.com/beers/american-amber.php

Also look like I said for the clone recipes for yor favorite beers, there are a series of books, there is the BYO 150 clone issue, and tons of recipes on the web.

I'll usually google "Beername clone recipes" and end up with a few.

Maida7 and Revvy seemed to hit it on the head.

I called Canada just now (Dieu Du Ciel is in Montreal) and spoke with their president, Stephane Ostiguy, who was really great to chat with. Usually, he says, they don't give out too much information, but he was willing to help me with my queries. Turns out, they add it to the boil and then bottle with it.

But damn it, I'm still doing it MY WAY.

JUST KIDDING!!

So, I'll look to add some maple syrup (not a gallon--maybe a quart or two) to the boil and then will also use it, boiled with water (Right?) as my priming sugar. I'll do the research to make sure I don't overdo the priming and end up with bottle bombs (vs. flavor bombs!) all over the place.

Again, many thanks (Honestly) for all the great suggestions and, just as importantly, questions of me. If I'm not questioned, I can't analyze my actions and improve/learn.

Cheers.

nigel31 said:

I'll do the research to make sure I don't overdo the priming and end up with bottle bombs (vs. flavor bombs!) all over the place.
.

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This is super important. I have a friend who wanted sweet cider and added way to much sugar to the bottles and they blew up and a piece of glass went thru his eye. He is now blind in one eye for the rest of his life.

nigel31 said:

So, I'll look to add some maple syrup (not a gallon--maybe a quart or two) to the boil and then will also use it, boiled with water (Right?) as my priming sugar. I'll do the research to make sure I don't overdo the priming and end up with bottle bombs (vs. flavor bombs!) all over the place.

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This is fine, and glad you did the research, but realize that the canadian company is not using your other ingredients for their base beer, so you may have a very different (drier/less sweet) beer. I would go as far to say likely.

5 seconds on how to make things drier or sweeter:
Drier:
- Simple sugars: Honey, Maple Syrup, Sugar, Corn Sugar, Candi Sugar, Molasses
- Some AG techniques you can worry about later

Sweeter:
- Malto-dextrine
- Some AG techniques you can worry about later.

If you really want to have the beer you named, then you should find a clone, or ask the forum to help you clone it. I think you will end up with something you like much better, and is much closer.

One other thing you might consider before going down this road is non-sugar flavoring. People use these with much success for making Raspberry Hefeweizens and the like.

Maple isn't as prominent, but I found some flavoring here: http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/flavorings/mapleflavor.html

This will allow you to get maple flavor without affecting the beer otherwise (mouthfeel, ABV).

dkershner said:

One other thing you might consider before going down this road is non-sugar flavoring. People use these with much success for making Raspberry Hefeweizens and the like.

Maple isn't as prominent, but I found some flavoring here: http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/flavorings/mapleflavor.html

This will allow you to get maple flavor without affecting the beer otherwise (mouthfeel, ABV).

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Yeah I was just going to google something similar and suggest that.

To really get the flavor of something like a honey, or maple syrup you really have to find an unfermentable version of it and that may mean an extract or something like a rind that has the essence of it. Or a grain like the honey malt.

One thing I have somewhat been toying with is trying to infuse lactose with a flavor essence. Like taking a small amount of it and placing it in a jar with orange peels. Or boiling some like you do priming sugar and adding something to that and then adding it to the boil. (maybe similar to a simple syrup) Hoping that the flavor and aroma infuses the lactose and carries on during fermentation.

Fenugreek is an herb that imparts a maplish flavor. It is also nursing aid and it is said that women that take a lot of it end up with maple smelling sweat (I wouldn't worry about that in the quantities you'd use for brewing). I came across that info when my wife asked me for a nursing beer. I'm going to add it to an oatmeal stout (oats and hops also being lactation aids).

OK, 1st of all what doghousechef said-that's very cool..mmmm...nursing beer!
the only thing I wanted to add is about making a more concentrated recipe. I inadvertently did this a couple of times-was making 6 gal recipes for my 5 gal fermentor- because I didn't realize the recipes were for 6 gal fermentors. anyhoo, what ended up happening was high-ass OGs, cloyingly sweet beers that don't carbonate completely and have head retention problems! once I learned how to scale the recipes on beersmith to my setup(thanks HBtalk), everything worked out. I know you've moved on and have an idea about how to make the beer you're wanting to clone, but since this was originally thrown out there, I just thought i'd share my experience.