Another infection, help!!!!!

I moved my most recent batch to the kegs last night.

It seems there is a pretty bad infection. The beer has a very "sour" taste to it. It tastes like a sour ale. I may be dumping out my second batch of beer.
The goal was to produce a very basic pale ale.

I regard my sanitation process as being very thorough and can't imagine my sanitation process being the reason for an infection.

I have a few thoughts as to why this could have happened.

1. My carboys are infected and are not cleanable. My carboys are 3 years old. Could there be some reason that a glass carboy can get an infection and not be cleanable?

2. As I inspected my rig last night for any potential problems I noticed that the arms (the pieces on the inside of my kettle that the water or wort flow through) in my hot liquor tank and brew kettle have RUSTED. Can this rust affect my beer? Could there be any chemical reaction from the rust getting into the beer during fermentation that could cause this to happen?

3. The CFWC is infected and cannot be cleaned. On the brew day I flushed the CFWC backwards and forwards with boiling water. After that I submerged the CFWC in an iodipher mixture for at least an hour. I am hesitant to assume that the CFWC was not clean after this process but who knows!

I am really upset by all this. It has been a few months since I have had a good batch of beer and am getting extremely frustrated. Any help you may be able to provide would be greatly appreciated.

if your not using starsan you should. I dont think anything in your brewing process could cause it because once you boil the wort is sanitized. Your CFC could be the problem but running boiling water through it should do the trick. Carboys can get chipped on the inside which would allow bugs to get in there and stay in there.

What are the advantages of Starsan vs. iodipher?

no rinse IIRC

YellowDogBrewingCompany said:

What are the advantages of Starsan vs. iodipher?

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StarSan says active for a very long time. it works by lowering the PH of the water to below 3 which kills anything you need to worry about. iodipher on the other hand is only active as long as its brown. as soon as it turns clear its no longer active and you might as well be sanitizing with water. also StarSan wont stain your equipment like iodipher does.

TipsyDragon said:

StarSan says active for a very long time. it works by lowering the PH of the water to below 3 which kills anything you need to worry about. iodipher on the other hand is only active as long as its brown. as soon as it turns clear its no longer active and you might as well be sanitizing with water. also StarSan wont stain your equipment like iodipher does.

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I understand the advantages of Starsan for long time frames but I make my iodipher on the spot every time I use it. So I don't think switching to iodipher will solve the problem i currently have going on.

YellowDogBrewingCompany said:

I understand the advantages of Starsan for long time frames but I make my iodipher on the spot every time I use it. So I don't think switching to iodipher will solve the problem i currently have going on.

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Well, you won't know if you don't try it. It seems odd you want to solve a problem but won't take simple steps to isolate the problem.

You will need to address each process individually to find out if it is contributing to your problem. Everything that touches your beer should be made of sanitary materials. You should take care to make sure it stays CLEAN and sanitary. Rust on metal is not very sanitary. You should be using stainless or brass which will not rust.

Heating a CFWC is not cleaning. Cleaning is removing soils. There are organic and inorganic soils. To clean a CFC, you should pump a warm to hot alkaline cleaner through it. Something like PBW works best. Oxyclean can also be used. Let that circulate for 10 minutes or so. Rinse well. Before use, circulate Sani-Clean (low foam) or Star San through the chiller. DO NOT RINSE. When you are done with the boil, allow the beer to push the sanitizer out of the chiller before you put the hose in your fermenter.

If it is cleaned and sanitized PROPERLY, glass will not harbor anything that will infect your beer. Spend a little money and buy proper cleaning and sanitizing chemicals and use them according to the directions.

Soak you carboys in warm PBW or Oxyclean for a day or two. Rinse well. Soak all your hoses, connectors, airlocks etc in a bucket with the cleaner. Rinse well.

On the day of your brew, soak everything in Star-San. Don't rinse. It might cost you $10-15.00 to buy the chemicals. That is cheaper than the ingredients and time you would invest in making 5 gallons of beer.

Wayne1 said:

Heating a CFWC is not cleaning. Cleaning is removing soils. There are organic and inorganic soils. To clean a CFC, you should pump a warm to hot alkaline cleaner through it. Something like PBW works best. Oxyclean can also be used. Let that circulate for 10 minutes or so. Rinse well. Before use, circulate Sani-Clean (low foam) or Star San through the chiller. DO NOT RINSE. When you are done with the boil, allow the beer to push the sanitizer out of the chiller before you put the hose in your fermenter.

If it is cleaned and sanitized PROPERLY, glass will not harbor anything that will infect your beer. Spend a little money and buy proper cleaning and sanitizing chemicals and use them according to the directions.

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+1000 on the CLEANING.

I ran into this last year - unfortunately with lagers, so it took a while for me to realize I had a problem. Luckily I like sour beers.

My first thought was grain dust. I mill at one end of the basement and do my mash at the other side. I boil outside, and then bring it back in to chill. I now condition my malt which helps to minimize dust, and I now never pour grain, I always use a scoop, and lay it in (mill hopper or mash tun). Anything to minimize dust. As part my of analysis of the problem I noticed just how must dust was beeing generated at my mashing/cooling station when I mashed in by pouring in the crushed grain. My arm were literally being covered in dust, which I can say I hadn't ever worried about washing off, so it could fall in while stirring during the chill. I bought some elbow length gloves that I now wear for all steps where I handle grain. Once the boil is on and the mash tun cleaned the gloves come off. ( I might buy a second pair - different color - to wear for the chilling steps)

All of that is well and good, but I still had a slight problem so I took apart all my plumbing (hi temp plastics) and was amazed at how much gunk was in there!!! Even with pumping nearly boiling Starsan through the system. I cleaned everything, brought most into work and autoclaved it. This has finally fixed the problem. I am now a believer in a thorough cleaning, preferably with something strongly alkaline (preferably HOT - except for glass or plastic fermentors), followed by a thorough rinse, and the sanitized and left to dry.

I'm now doing one more preventative measure and that is purchasing a second pump. I had been using one pump to recirculate for a vorlauf and to pump to the boil kettle. Then I would rinse it, and pump sanitizer through it for at least 10 min. and then use it to recirculate while chilling. I think this is fine, but over time enough gunk got trapped, that it wasn't enough. Now with a second pump I can have one set-up dedicated for mashing steps (and all the lactobacillus swimming around in it) and one that only sees finished wort (and no lactobacillus). I just ordered the pump, but for the last several brews I added a hot PBW step after I was done with the sparge. This has made me more busy while brewing and has kept me from doing the other non-brewing things I normally do while brewing, like cleaning and other chores that keep the wife happy and let's me brew more often as these things still get done. With a second pump, it can clean it afterwards and have it ready to go for the next brew day and save me some time on brew day - at least that is what I told my wife.

Of course, one can always brew stronger and hoppier beers that the lactobacillus can't survive and cause a prob:

YellowDogBrewingCompany said:

1. My carboys are infected and are not cleanable.

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My old glasss carboy has visible scratches in the neck/throat. Scratches are difficult to clean and a very small amount of organic material may be left in them and there will be bacteria living on the organic matter. Now Iodophor is a great sanitizer, but it can't be trusted to get inside the scratches to get rid of any bacterial contamination. For that it is recommended to use an oxidizing cleanser like PBW. After fermentation I clean my carboy with a brush to get rid of all visible material, then I store my carboy with PBW so it will have time to reach inside and eliminate organic residue from the scratches. Then I just rinse with clean water and give it the usual Iodophor treatment.

2. As I inspected my rig last night for any potential problems I noticed that the arms (the pieces on the inside of my kettle that the water or wort flow through) in my hot liquor tank and brew kettle have RUSTED.

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I can't quite visualize where those rusted pieces are. If they're inside the boiling wort, they're probably OK, but anywhere else then you have the same problem mentioned above. There will be organic residue that will harbor bacteria, and Iodophor can't get through any slime to kill them.


THe brewing network had a show on sanitation that was very informative. One of the reps from five star chemicals, Jon Herskovitz, was explaining the different methods of sanitation.

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/469

Everyone,

Thanks for all the responses!!! Your help is greatly appreciated.

Here are the immediate steps I am going to take to solve the problem.

1. Use Sani Clean Not Iodipher
2. Replace all Plastic.
3. Sanitize CFWC. (New Methods)
4. Use Oxyclean to clean my carboys.

With all this info I do have a few question.

3. My bro-in-law is a Phd Chemist and brewer. He suggested that I boil my CFWC like he boils his immersion chiller. Has anyone ever tried this? Can anyone think of anything that would hurt the CFWC if I tried this? Of course I would boil it in a different pot than the wort.

4. I purchased a bucket of oxyclean yesterday. How many scoops should I put in each carboy to be effective?

Again, I want to say thank you to everyone who is offering some help in getting this corrected. I am planning on brewing this Saturday. I will post some info on how it goes.

YellowDogBrewingCompany said:

Everyone,
4. I purchased a bucket of oxyclean yesterday. How many scoops should I put in each carboy to be effective?
.

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I do one scoop per 5 gallons. One thing I would add is that I've found OxyClean to be much more effective with warm water. I have a HERMS setup so I heat up the water, add the Oxyclean and circulate it for 30 mins through the plumbing (and CFC), then I flush it out with cold water, then I circulate with a water / Idophor mix and drain it (but no rinse).

+1 for the Oxyclean/PBW! They are percarbonate sanitizers and pretty effective at breaking down proteins, when used correctly anyway.
I use One-Step but really need to get some Oxyclean!!
I will always use Iodophor though, I like the smell of it! Yes, I am weird!

Honestly iodophor works just as well as star-san, so I doubt that is the problem. But you can try it just to mix it up. I suspect its the counterflow chiller not being cleaned. I'm not sure on boiling it but you really need to run hot water with cleaner through it, rinse with hot water, then sanitize. The point is, all equipment needs to be clean before it can be sanitized properly.

commonlaw said:

Honestly iodophor works just as well as star-san, so I doubt that is the problem. But you can try it just to mix it up. I suspect its the counterflow chiller not being cleaned. I'm not sure on boiling it but you really need to run hot water with cleaner through it, rinse with hot water, then sanitize. The point is, all equipment needs to be clean before it can be sanitized properly.

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Again, I appreciate everyone's feedback.

My normal process for cleaning the CFWC is to run 160 degree water forward and then backward for 10 minutes each. Then to soak it in iodipher for an hour for sanitation.

My new process will be run 160 degree water with oxyclean (1 scoop per five gallons) forward and then backward for 10 minutes each. Then to soak it in Saniclean for an hour for sanitation.

Essentially the only differences I am making is adding oxyclean to my cleaning procedure and changing my sanitation solution from Iodipher to Saniclean.

Do you think these changes will make the difference needed to eliminate the infection?

I would think that they should help cure your infection problem if your chiller was the culprit of the infection.