Am I getting too good efficiency?

I've been hitting 93% efficiency for a while now. I just get this weird feeling when a recipe calls for 12 lbs of 2 row and I have to scale it down to 6 lbs. What are some of the negatives of being so awesome?



Why does it feel so wrong to be so right?

When you are on top there is no where to go but down lol
j/k

It all depends on how you sparge and what your boil-off is. If you are using too much water to sparge you may be oversparging.

Kai

Kaiser said:

It all depends on how you sparge and what your boil-off is. If you are using too much water to sparge you may be oversparging.

Kai

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Is there a way to quantify this? Like it's better to stay under X volume of sparge water for a X volume batch with a water/grain ratio of X. Or for your pre-boil volume, no less than X % should come from mash water and no more than X % should come from sparge water.

I used to get 93% efficiency. Then I started increasing my water/grain ratio above the traditional homebrewer's 1.25 qts/lb. My efficiency has come down to about 90%, but I think the wort quality is better. FWIW, I believe commercial breweries get in the mid 90s.

On my last few batches my efficiency has been getting better and better, my last I hit 91% and it totally screwed the batch because I formulated the recipe for 78%(which was my last batches eff%) So It ended up stronger OG then I had wanted and through the balance out of whack. I am honestly thinking about dropping my efficiency back down, the cost is minimally more grain but I will have better control of my OG.
My efficiency shot up when I started sparging hotter and with more water. I think, like kaiser said, I may be over sparging. Despite the increased efficiency, I am still over sparging.

Draw back to this oversparging would be? . . Tannins? Off flavors?

chefchris said:

I just get this weird feeling when a recipe calls for 12 lbs of 2 row and I have to scale it down to 6 lbs.

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For five gallons 12# of two row at 70% is 1.060 and 9# at 90% is 1.059. Your really only talking about 3 pounds. You measurements and math have got to be much better than that to get accurate efficiency calculations.

Conroe said:

For five gallons 12# of two row at 70% is 1.060 and 9# at 90% is 1.059. Your really only talking about 3 pounds. You measurements and math have got to be much better than that to get accurate efficiency calculations.

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I'm confused too. 93% on 6 pounds of malt and I get 1.040. It's 46% when I use 12 pounds and adjust it down to 1.040.

I just posted a similar thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/my-efficiency-really-high-90-any-downsides-119065/

It seems funny that its sometimes really easy to get very high efficiencies when I see so many threads here where new brewers are trying stuff that seems really complicated to me (fly sparging, decoctions, etc) and complaining about 50-60% efficiencies. I got 91% on Friday using an unmodified 5 gallon cooler, a 5 gal paint strainer and a single batch sparge at 170F.

I'd love to hear the tastes associated with "over sparging" if that's what I (and others) are doing. Is it like a "tannin" taste? I hear that term a lot but am not sure what its supposed to be like in a finished beer.

How can I decrease efficiency a few points if I'm worried about tannin extraction? I am mashing out at 170F, should I back off that 4-5 degrees? Use less sparge water and just add water to the kettle instead?

Some excellent info is here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/my-efficiency-really-high-90-any-downsides-119065/.

I've herd it said that some people, like Jamil, think getting under 75% makes better beer.

Sorry missed that last post

How can I decrease efficiency a few points if I'm worried about tannin extraction? I am mashing out at 170F, should I back off that 4-5 degrees? Use less sparge water and just add water to the kettle instead?

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No sparge or less sparge and adding watter to the boil would do it.

Is it like a "tannin" taste? I hear that term a lot but am not sure what its supposed to be like in a finished beer.

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It's a flavor in grape skins and you can get it by over steeping a tea bag.

Doesn't tannin extraction and, therefore oversparging, require an increase in pH? If your sparge water has a low pH (e.g., below 6.0), is it virtually impossible to oversparge in regards to tannin extraction?

Yeah, it's the pH that matters.

So if we use 5.2 Stabilizer properly, then we don't have to worry about over-sparging?

No because you sparge water is not stabilized. I guess you could add it to the sparge water. I'm not sure what exactly is in 5.2 stabilizer.

menschmaschine said:

Is there a way to quantify this? Like it's better to stay under X volume of sparge water for a X volume batch with a water/grain ratio of X. Or for your pre-boil volume, no less than X % should come from mash water and no more than X % should come from sparge water.

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Not really. Like most brewing practices it always depends. I have heard of guidelines like using 2/3 of the water for mashing and 1/3 for sparging. But that is far from what most home brewers do. 1/2 for sparging and 1/2 for mashing seems reasonable and I'm close to that ratio quite often.

Batch in batch sparging it is easier to quantify than in fly sparging since there is no channeling in batch sparging. The problem in fly sparging is that you mat have poor lauter efficiency due to excessive channeling while still oversparging in these channels.

Playing around with the amounts of sparge water or mash/sparge ratios is an easy thing to do for most brewers and that's what you should do if you are concerned about oversparging. This way you can evaluate for yourself if the quality of the beer changes as you change the intensity of the sparge.

Kai

Well, I get EXACTLY 82% eff. on each brew session. I feel like a loser... seems everyone is getting 90+% nowdays. I should just friggin give up.

Kaiser said:

1/2 for sparging and 1/2 for mashing seems reasonable and I'm close to that ratio quite often.

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Yeah, that's my ratios too.

Hey if we can get 90+% efficiency with batch sparging, and we can make sure our PH stays in the right range with a stabilizer, then why would anyone ever fly sparge? I think I've always heard that people fly sparged to get great efficiencies, but does it do anything else?

I wonder how much work is done now with some of our home brewing techniques that was only necessary back in the olden days of poor malts and old technology. For example, getting a grain bed set up to do the filtration of wort was necessary before we had really fine, reusable synthetic material filters, but maybe now there's better way of doing it that we are ignoring? Does the grain bed do anything besides strain out big husk particles? If not, why not just use a filter (like a paint strainer)?

The Pol said:

Well, I get EXACTLY 82% eff. on each brew session. I feel like a loser... seems everyone is getting 90+% nowdays. I should just friggin give up.

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I get 70-72 and have no plans on trying to raise it for the instant. I am playing around more with things like recipe formulation, tasting, mash temps.

One day I will maybe try to raise it, but for now I am not really that concerned. It is the consistancy that matters to me.

ghpeel said:

Hey if we can get 90+% efficiency with batch sparging, and we can make sure our PH stays in the right range with a stabilizer, then why would anyone ever fly sparge? I think I've always heard that people fly sparged to get great efficiencies, but does it do anything else?

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There is some evidence that it provides a higher quality wort (e.g., less lipids). Also, I find it easier in concept as well. Just make sure you have enough sparge water and stop at the designated pre-boil volume. Combine that with the fact that one can fly-sparge just as fast as a double batch sparge with the right equipment/technique, then it makes sense to fly.

Nothing against batch sparging and I certainly don't want to get into a debate here about that. It's just one of those things in brewing that each brewer can chose the best way for him/herself and both ways are respectable.

Adding phosphoric acid to the sparge watter can keep the pH in check. Now that I batch sparge I don't seem to need it anymore. When I used to fly sparge I had some problems with pH.

big supper said:

I get 70-72 and have no plans on trying to raise it for the instant. I am playing around more with things like recipe formulation, tasting, mash temps.

One day I will maybe try to raise it, but for now I am not really that concerned. It is the consistancy that matters to me.

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Yes, as Pol kindly pointed out, efficiency is not a contest. It's consistency that matters most. Efficiency matters more for commercial breweries who could save $100s or $1000s per batch with higher efficiency.

I am hitting 90% now. I have tried wetter mash and batch sparging. I have seen no real diff in efficncy. I like the wetter mash since it seems to be esier to circulate. DF-RIMS so the wort os clear hitting the kettle.

I crush very, very fine. my water ratio is around 3 L/Kg, whatever that is in imperial.