Batch Sparging for Dummies, Episode 3

Gave All grain another shot today, and yet again I sucked. This time I went with EdWort's Bavarian Hefe. Straight forward and simple:
7 lbs German Wheat
4 lbs German Pils
Mashed at 156-154 for 90 minutes with 4.3 gallons of water, and stirred every thirty minutes. First runnings were 1.063, about 3.8 gallons

Then I poured in 3.8 gallons @ 185, got the grainbed to 173 (over 170 can lead to astringency, right?) stirred, and ten minutes later collected 3.8 gallons of 1.020 wort. Great, 50 % efficiency again. I go ahead and boil to 5 gallons and make beer.

a few hours later, I decide to pour a couple gallons thru the MLT I need to clean, and take a reading. 1.017. I am leaving lots of sugar behind.

How do I go about sparging twice? Should I divide the total volume of the 1st runnings by 2 and sparge twice to end up with a thicker mash and the same volume into the boil pot? Should I Sparge twice with the same 1.3 qts per pound ratio and boil forever in a bigger pot? I have read before that you should stop collecting wort under 1.020- is that true?

I made great partial mash beer quick and easy- save me from going back!!!!

Ok, well, I see that you should mash in with about 14 quarts of water. So, that's about a gallon too much that you used in the mash. I use 1.25 quarts per pound of grain- you used 1.5ish. That's ok, but then you're short on the sparge water.

I've heard that it's most efficient to sparge with .5 gallons of water per pound- but I usually stop short of that and just stop when I'm at my 6 gallons. That's why my efficiency isn't so great, though.

So, then divide the sparge water into two equal amounts. The grainbed temp is great at 168-170, so after you run off, you add the first sparge water to get your grain bed up to that temperature. Stir well, vorlauf, run off, repeat.

You should be using more sparge water than mash water.

I double batch sparge. 1.2 qt/lb strike, heatstick to mashout, then sparge with equal amounts needed to collect 6.75 gallons. With 10# my first runnings are usually 1.5-2 gallons so I subtract that from 6.75 and divide in half for the two infusions, giving a good stir and waiting 10 minutes before running off each time. 80-82% efficiency consistently. My second runnings are usually 1.012 or so. Unless you are doing a small (~1.040) beer you won't runoff too much.

- Eric

QuickerNU,

This is what I would do, based on Denny Conn's procedure:

11 lbs grain X 1.25 qts/lb = 3.4 gallons, so say 3.5 gallons mash in water at about 170 F( you need to calculate this more carefully)to get to your mash temp of 155.

At mashout time, before starting the draining, add 1.25 gallons of 200 F water to raise temp to about 165 or so, stir well wait 5-10 minutes, do your vorlauf and drain. You will have about 0.13-0.15 gallons per pound of grain of retained water depending on your system. So, you should be able to collect about 3.25 gallons of first runnings.

After draining the mash dry, add 3.25 gallons of 180 F water, stir wait five, do your vorlauf and drain.

Based on your description, you're using too much mash-in water, and not raising the mashout temp, by adding more hot water to decrease the viscosity of the wort and allowing it drain more efficiently at the end of the mash time.

Allegedly the most efficient extraction is done by using equal volumes of water for each sparge/drain of the mash.

check out the all grain primer in Bobby_M sig. step by step directions. My efficiency if I calculated right(not real sure I did) was about 62% on my first AG. I have improved it a little on my own but plan on trying his no mash out double sparge technique tommorrow. Hopefully I will be in the high 80's.

I see when I did my original calcs I somehow came up with 13.75=4.33 gal, oops.
Everybody has been a big help. Is there a formula for amount of mashout water? Yooper, do you even do a mashout? I like the idea of subtracting 1st runnings from target boil and dividing by 2 for a double batch sparge. I thought better efficiency came from runnings being equal, so I was afraid to double sparge.
AiredAile, I followed the way you do it to the letter on edworts pale ale recipe, and still hit the same efficiency. Could lauter tun design in a batch sparge contribute to needing a double sparge or a single?

quickerNu said:

I see when I did my original calcs I somehow came up with 13.75=4.33 gal, oops.
Everybody has been a big help. Is there a formula for amount of mashout water? Yooper, do you even do a mashout? I like the idea of subtracting 1st runnings from target boil and dividing by 2 for a double batch sparge. I thought better efficiency came from runnings being equal, so I was afraid to double sparge.
AiredAile, I followed the way you do it to the letter on edworts pale ale recipe, and still hit the same efficiency. Could lauter tun design in a batch sparge contribute to needing a double sparge or a single?

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I used to do a mash out, but I looked at BobbyM's experiments, and used my own sort of experiments, and didn't find any better efficiency at all with the mash out. So, my first batch sparge addition is hotter, so that I can bring the grainbed up to 168. The second one is 168, since the grainbed is already at that temperature. I split my sparge into two fairly equal additions, so that the runnings are about the same size. I have read that for best efficiency, .5 gallon sparge water (total) is ideal, but I just don't have the time or inclination for a super long boil.

So 11 lbs @ 1.25= 13.75 qts -1.43 qts (assuming .13 qts per pound absorbtion) =12.32 first runnings with no mashout technique =3.08 Gallons.
Target boil 6.5 leaves 3.42/2 = two sparges of 1.71 gallons or 6.84 qts

Does this sound right for a double batch sparge using 1st sparge to hit mashout temps instead of additional water prior to the 1st runnings?

quickerNu said:

So 11 lbs @ 1.25= 13.75 qts -1.43 qts (assuming .13 qts per pound absorbtion) =12.32 first runnings with no mashout technique =3.08 Gallons.
Target boil 6.5 leaves 3.42/2 = two sparges of 1.71 gallons or 6.84 qts

Does this sound right for a double batch sparge using 1st sparge to hit mashout temps instead of additional water prior to the 1st runnings?

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That sounds right to me. Remember, for better efficiency numbers, you'd use more sparge water and boil down to 5 gallons. But, if you only want to sparge until you reach your target (which is what I do), that would work.

Dude, save yourself a lot of headaches and invest in some brewing software.

I just use this site:

http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/

Mash/sparge/eff I usually do by hand. I like a challenge.

- Eric

I have beersmith. I need to figure out beersmith. If you use beersmith, where do you plug these #'s in, specifically mash types?
I like that tastybrew site- a little more straightforward.
On the better eff side, yooper, what would the ideal ratio of sparge water to grain be?

In beersmith, you can set up your sparge type in the "Mash Profile" section. I usually put in Single infusion, medium body, batch sparge, no mash out. If you put in your target boil size manually or according to your equipment.

If you view the "classic brew sheet" it will give you step by step instructions of your brew day. This includes a sparge split into 2 or three parts. Sometimes it splits it into 3 parts for me. The first part is only a .5 gallon addition. I just ignore this since it is a mashout addition. It will calculate sparge volumes for you according to the efficiency you entered. I

f you need more pointers, I could take some screen shots.

I keep promoting Bobby_M's "No Mash Out Double Batch Sparge". I can't imagine getting any kind of efficiency with a single batch sparge.

It's very simple to change from what you're already doing... Just take your calculated sparge volume (lets say 5 gal for simplicity sake) and divide by two.

Thats it! Do two seperate 2.5 gal sparges. I usually use 1.3qt/lb and it gets me pretty close.

quickerNu said:

I have beersmith. I need to figure out beersmith. If you use beersmith, where do you plug these #'s in, specifically mash types?
I like that tastybrew site- a little more straightforward.
On the better eff side, yooper, what would the ideal ratio of sparge water to grain be?

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I think that John Palmer's book says that .5 gallons of sparge water per pound of grain is a good number. It would give you plenty of sparge water without the risk of oversparging. Let me see if I can find out where I read that, and provide the link.

Edit- in his online book, he just says to generally use about 1.5 times the mash water for your sparge. So, if you use 1.25 quarts /pound for the mash, use 1.875 quarts/pound for the sparge. Maybe I found the .5 gallons per pound recommendation in his "real" book. I'll try to remember to look at it after work.

wildwest450 said:

Dude, save yourself a lot of headaches and invest in some brewing software.

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+1, BeerSmith is a wonderful thing, and it calculates it all for you.

I've used Beersmith for my last two batches, and when following its brew sheet, I've absolutely nailed my temps and volumes. I can't endorse it enough!

jpsloan said:

I've used Beersmith for my last two batches, and when following its brew sheet, I've absolutely nailed my temps and volumes. I can't endorse it enough!

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Yup, I haven't missed a temp by more than 2f using beersmith, I've even stopped preheating my mash tun. I will heat water 3f warmer than beersmith tells me, and I have been nailing strike temps.

Another beersmith plug here.

Just FYI, my system is to preheat the mash tun, dough-in to water at strike temp, and mash. After mashing, I double-sparge with 175F water to collect the right amount of runnings. My efficiency is about 75%, and, more importantly, it's consistent.

I think consistency in efficiency is more important that high numbers. Even if your efficiency is 60%, once you know it, you can formulate the recipe around that eff., and hit your target gravity and volume.

Thanks everybody. I have been getting my temps just fine with beersmith, figuring out the sparge is what is kicking my butt. I will mess with it more when I get home from work.

To add to how bad this brewday went, I realized my hops (hallertau) were only 1.5 aa about 5 minutes before I needed them. I have a pound of them. Luckily I had some 4.5 tettnang.

quickerNu said:

Thanks everybody. I have been getting my temps just fine with beersmith, figuring out the sparge is what is kicking my butt.

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quickerNu: I did this recipe on the 4th, and also was way off on the efficiency. Tasted it after 10 days and it is light but very tasty. Right now with the heat though a tasty light beer is just right.
Below are my sparging notes. What I did on my next batch (IPA) was bumping up my batch sparge temperature to around 190F, and got much better results.

09:00 3.5 gals mash for 90 minutes at 152.5 degrees.
09:50 Still at 152F, stirred
10:30 Conversion test shows only red, added 1 gal boiling water.
1.058 SG first runnings, 3.3 gals.
10:50 Added 2gal 185F water - bed to 165F.
11:05 Second runnings 1.028 SG. 4.8 gal
11:15 Added 2.5gal 185F water - bed to 165F. 7Gal 1.025 SG.

Stick with it, your find what works well for you soon enough, just keep posting here. I know it's really helped me.

BTW: Thanks all.:rockin:

I even made a PDF that you can download and print out for your convenience: http://www.suebob.com/brew/Bobby_M all grain primer.pdf

In summary though, I agree. Go 1.25 qts/lb or even a little stiffer and take 3 runnings (intial one, then one after each of two batch sparge infusions).

Very cool, again, thanks for the help! I have the ingredients for another batch of the hefe, then UPS should be dropping off the stuff for 2 more batches of ed's pale (start from scratch again) and yoopers marzen- hopefully I can get everything down by the time I get to the marzen!

Okay, tried Ed's Hefe again. Did no mashout, double batch sparge. 54% again. Now I am starting to look at other parts of my brewing. When batch sparging, after pouring the sparge water in and stirring, should you let the grain bed settle? I have been waiting 10 minutes between adding water and vourlaufing. Maybe sugar is coming out of suspension?
Also, I am redoing the braids on my mlt. they run along the side of the cooler- didn't think that should make a difference either.
Finally, AHS is crushing my grain for me, and it takes up to a month for me to use it. Again, didn't think it would make this big a difference.

quickerNu said:

Okay, tried Ed's Hefe again. Did no mashout, double batch sparge. 54% again. Now I am starting to look at other parts of my brewing. When batch sparging, after pouring the sparge water in and stirring, should you let the grain bed settle? I have been waiting 10 minutes between adding water and vourlaufing. Maybe sugar is coming out of suspension?
Also, I am redoing the braids on my mlt. they run along the side of the cooler- didn't think that should make a difference either.
Finally, AHS is crushing my grain for me, and it takes up to a month for me to use it. Again, didn't think it would make this big a difference.

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Hmmm, when I buy from AHS, my crush is ok usually and my efficiency is always 70-72%. (I buy almost all of my grain from them, and always pre-crushed, so I'm pretty consistent with the 72%-ish). I do a double batch sparge, and usually no mashout. I've done a mashout from time to time, but not noticed a difference in the efficiency, so stopped doing it. I do make sure my first sparge is pretty darn HOT- like 181 going into my 154 grain bed to get me to 168 degrees (depending on the size of the addition of course). I use a round Igloo cooler (10 gallon) with a false bottom. I add my sparge water and stir well, then let it sit about 10 minutes before vorlaufing and draining. I usually only need to vorlauf a quart or two, and then drain. And repeat.
How did your crush look? Did it look pretty well crushed, with most of the hulls opened? How is your thermometer?

I used two thermometers this time. Everything went perfect. Used 183 sparge to get me to 169. Crush looked good. I wouldn't think a month would hurt them. Should I try a conversion test from now on? I just don't think MLT design should be an issue with batch sparging. I am really guessing now....

Maybe I will turn it into 1 circular braid.

Try measuring your mash efficiency. I measured mine last night and it was 100% where it should be. My brewhouse efficiency is consistently 81-83%. I do 1.2 qt/gal, mashout, double batch sparge. I measured the pH of my mash last night at 5.2 and I crush using a BarleyCrusher at a gap of 1.041. Before I got my mill I consistently got 72-74% using pre-crushed grain from AHS.

My water, in the Austin area, is incredibly hard, with a huge buffering capacity. To get the pH down to 5.2, I mix 2:1 soft-to-hard water, add a few teaspoons of gypsum AND 5.2 stabilizer. (Amount of gypsum was determined from HowToBrew using my water report..) In addition I add 3 mL of phosphoric acid to the sparge water to get the pH of the final runnings to stay below 6.

Before I started correcting for pH my efficiency was miserable. Back then I didn't know about measuring mash efficiency but I noticed a big increase going with 5.2, another increase getting the mill, and another bump when I started mixing soft and hard water to dilute the bicarbonate that is in my water.

To measure your mash efficiency stir up the mash well and draw off a sample of the mash liquid. Cool it and measure the gravity. The gravity should match what you would get if you plug your recipe into a calculator set to 100% brewhouse efficiency. If your mash efficiency isn't 100%, you know where to look. Since your sparge sounds good, I think this is where you should look next..

Hope this helps.

- Eric

Quickernu,

I'm a bit late into this discussion, but I'd like to bring up a point from your first post that backs up what elove is saying.

I did a rough calculation and your mash efficiency is only about 77% from the numbers you provided. A lot of your problems are likely stemming from either the crush or the age of your grains. That would be the first spot I'd troubleshoot.

Question, what's the temp of the wort when you're taking your gravity reads? Are you letting it cool below 100F and factoring in the temperature adjustment?

-Joe

I have never calculated mash efficiency, but yes, I cool to at least 90 or less and adjust for temp. I failed to measure the volume of my first runnings this time around, but my og was 1.083 (with 13.75 qts of strike water,then less grain absortion). second runnings with roughly 1/2 of 4.33 gallons of sparge water was 1.033, 2nd half 1.022.
How do I make sure I am getting full conversion without knowing my first runnings volume? My water tastes great, so I have been using it straight from the tap, but I think I am going to go get a filter tomorrow, maybe one of those hose-end rv filters. My water report:
http://www.ci.harker-heights.tx.us/docs/4-2007WaterQualityReport.pdf

The way I calculate mash efficiency is this:

assume a beer with 13lb grainbill, all 2-row

13 x 37 points of potential sugar = 481 total points potential

mash at 1.25 qts per pound = 4.1 gallons.

grain has a volume to factor in as well, 13lbs is about 1 gallon of volume (.652 liters per kg is what beersmith quotes in metric)

therefore the total volume in the mash is 5.1 gallons

481/5.1 gallons is 94.25 points per gallon, or the density of your mash liquid at 60F should be 1.094 if your conversion efficiency is 100%

As you can see, you don't need your first runnings volume, just measure the density of your mash wort and compare it against your calculated. You only need volume measurements to know how efficient your sparge is.

For all those who have helped, thanks! Here's my update after AG attempt #5, Edwort's Haus pale again
8 lbs 2 row, 2 lbs Vienna, .5 crystal 10.

This go around I used 1.3 qt per lb for 13.65 qt- 3.4 gallons. I used HEB "drinking water" charcoal filtered, oxygenated for 3 gallons, and tap water for the other .4

My first runnings (after a 60 min mash) collected 2.25 gallons at 1.076 draining slowly vs my old method of draining as fast as possible.

I sparged with 4.3 gallons, roughly split into 2 batches. brought bed to 168, stirred, let sit for 10 minutes, vorlaufed and ran off slowly for 1.040.

After all was drained, I poured in the other half, stirred vourlaufed, the ran off slowly. 1.020

I only measured the volume of first runnings (2.25) and figure I can safely assume all sparge water was recovered for a total into the boiler of 6.5 gallons. I measured the SG here, and was at 1.041

After a 1 hour boil, I cooled, then whirlpooled, then racked first to my jug for a sample, then to my primary. Is there a possibility of post whirlpool wort having a different SG at different depths? Next time I will measure OG after racking and thoroughly mixing in the primary just in case, because my measured OG was only 1.044. That seems a little low after boiling down from 1.044 @ 6.5 gallons to a hair over 5 into the primary (maybe 2 cups of trub and wort left in the boiler).

Could my OG measure have been inaccurate because of measuring from a post whirlpool boil pot instead of a thoroughly mixed primary?

Here's some very "notes on a napkin" type calculations, I can't speak to their accuracy, but they might help

10lbs of grain at 36ppg and .5 at 35ppg = 377.5 total points of gravity in the mash

3.4 gallons of water plus about .8 gallons of grain volume in the mash = 4.2 gal

377.5/4.2 = 89.9, so your first runnings gravity should be around 1.090, yours was 1.076, or about 84.5% efficient in the mash.

377.5 * 84.5% is about 319points of available sugar in the mashtun.
Your lauter numbers were:
2.25 * 1.076 = 171
2.15 * 1.04 = 86
2.15 * 1.020 = 43

total is 300 points in 6.5gallons, give or take due to inherent errors. 300/319 is 94%, pretty good lautering efficiency, 300/6.5gallons is 44, so your measurment of 1.041 is pretty close to 1.044 that I calculate. 1.041 is still 87.4% efficient, pretty good. The total mash efficiency is a product of the two calcs, .845*.874 = 73.8% into the boiler. Out of the two efficiencies, you might get more mileage out of getting a better mash number, if you get full conversion in the mash, your total efficiency into the boiler jumps to 87.4%, a gain of 13.6%.

That all having been said, your OG in the fermenter should be around 1.056
with the boil off, so there is something weird going on.

Solutions that are boiled that long should have no gradients forming so I don't think the issue is there. I remember you saying you wait until the samples are below 90F before reading sg, but are you correcting for temperature after taking your SG readings?

YooperBrew said:

You should be using more sparge water than mash water.

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+1 I just made the mistake of not using enough sparge water last weekend and I know better. Ruined my efficiency and left me low on IG.

Thanks Joe. I am correcting, and have measured the temp at several levels in the sample tube. The first runnings were 2.25 gal, though. Damn I need to figure out my software. I plunge the hydrometer up and down several times and measure temp at several depths to make sure they are consistent. I guess I need to make another batch- pratice makes perfect!

well, unless you have a leak in your boiling pot, all the sugar you put in should be there, maybe there was water in your sampling jug when you took your final SG before primary and it's diluting that read.

Is your hydrometer accurate? Have you tried measuring distilled or RO water? Sometimes the scale can slip giving inaccurate readings.

Otherwise try reading at the correct temperature rather than correcting. I have found that compensating for temperature doesn't always work out to the correct gravity reading.

I would have suggested that your preboil gravity sample was skewed due to gravity gradients in the boil kettle initially but since you took measurements of each running, the numbers add up (close enough). There's no way 1.041 would only boil down to 1.044 though unless you never really acheived a rolling boil. What did you get for a final volume into the fermenter?

Final volume into the fermenter was just a hair over 5 gallons. I never have to correct more than 1 point for temp.
Bobby, I am also thinking of how much star san was in my autosiphon and hose. I start the siphon into my test cylinder, then to fermenter. Maybe there was enough in there to throw off my og reading, if you think all the pre-boil #'s add up. Maybe this beer will have a bit more kick than I originally thought.
It was a good solid boil, going from about 6.5 to less than 5.5gallons

quickerNu - Sounds like your getting pretty good numbers, and I agree that either you had some layering or some extra water in the final reading. It sure sounds like you have things dialed in.

Occam's razor man, I'm leaning toward the simplest answer... water in the siphon. Wait until later in the rack to draw the sample and all will be well.