Lp Gas, Honeywell Valves, & Auber PID/Temp Controller Questions

I posted the below questions in the brewing & equipment section, but no one chimed in. I know a lot of you guys are incredably knowledgeable and have experience using this same type of system. Can someone out there reply?..... (I did shower this morning, so I don't smell or anything). You don't have to answer every single question I asked, but I really would like to know what's up with some of these unknowns ............

John


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Hello eveyone, I really need sound advice for purchasing the correct Auber Pid temp controller for use with my system. I am in the middle of my build and I am making a single tier Brutus type direct fired gas system. I am using Lp gas from a 20 lb tank through the back gas beam of the stand. I have Honeywell VR8200 standing pilot valves with thermocouples and pilot lights to control the gas flow on the HLT and MLT's 10 inch Banjo burners. I am also using needle valves to control the flame size to each burner.

My first question: There are two Auber Pid/Temp controllers that are similar and I want to know which one is better. The first one is model SYL2362 and the other is the SYL2342.

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=106

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1

I want to use RTD probes attached to tees coming out of the HLT and MLT vessel's liquid lines, to monitor the temperature, and have the correct Auber controller turn the Honeywell valves on and off. Both of these models seem like they would work fine, but is one better than the other for how I am going to use them with gas and not electricity?

Question 2: Can any one comment on the performance of their Auber controller and if they are satisfied with how its working controlling the Honeywell valves? Are you using On/Off mode or PID mode?

For instance I think On/Off mode is probably the way I will end up wiring the Auber controller, but is anyone actually using the pid modes for their gas system and solenoid valves? If so does the PID mode work better than ON/Off mode? The SYL2342 has fuzzy logic and the SYL2362 does not.

I would like to know for a five or ten gallon batch and lets say a desired mash temp of 152 degrees, what is the average amount of times the Honeywell valves turn on and off to keep the desired temp range close to 152 degrees in an hour? Does the valve turn on and off twice in 3 minutes, once every 5 minutes, or whatever, in On/Off mode. What is the average in PID mode (if any one has used this mode)? Also how is it working and what is the average times for a set temp on the HLT?

I realize there is a hysterisis band and a range of temps you can set, (two degrees, three degrees, one degree, etc) to activate and trigger the valves, and the SYL2342 has a tighter temp range that it can keep the temp at, but I just want someone to advise about how it is working for them in real life.

I was told (don't know if it is factual) that the Honeywell valves have a life of about 100,000 times of opening and closing before they start to have problems and need to be replaced. Can these valves handle opening and closing repeatedly in PID mode, or is it better to use the On/Off mode?

So there it is....Sorry so long winded but I would really like to learn some answers to the above questions, so I can make the right purchase and use the technology to the fullest extent of how it was designed. I want to have a solid working system with the best performance for the equipment I am using, and have a SMOOTH brew day!

Thanks for your time,

John

To the first question, both controllers can be setup to run in the on/off relay mode which would be the way you would run them. Using PID control for a mash tun with a large thermal mass that changes temp slowly would be difficult to tune as the time that temperature changes take would have the controller integral value maxed out waiting for setpoint to be reached. If you insulated the mash tun and were just doing single step mashing then you would not cycle the burner during the mash rest time.

To the second question, if doing step mashing then recirculating the wort in uninsulated plumbing will mean that you would expect a couple short burner cycles in the 60 minute mashing cycle after reaching step temperature.

Most of the mash conversion enzyme magic happens in the first 15 minutes of the temperature rest so dropping temps after that do not change the wort enzyme activity much. Stepping from the 145- 154 degree range for fermentablility to the 154 - 160 degree range for body increasing dextrines would probably be the most typical scenario I would expect to see used. If you get into high percentage wheat or rye malt beers then a three step mash schedule will work wonders for preventing stuck mashes with the sticky proteins liberated by the malts. A start at 125 for 10 minutes then a step to 150 for 40 minutes followed with a 10 minute step to 158 would yield an easy to drain wheat/rye beer with tremendous head retention.

Thanks Kladue, It's funny you mentioned rye beers because I really enjoy them and I haven't brewed one yet. I will use the controller in on/off mode then. A few short burner cycles in a 60 minute mash is perfectly fine for the Honeywell valves.

Thanks again for your help!

John

John,

All the questions you asked in this thread mirror my own. How did this pan out for you? My brutus build is stalled... What did you end up choosing for your temperature control system?

Hi Mancho, this was a long time ago and I have learned so much since then. I got some inaccurate information early on in 2010 when I started the build but sometimes that happens. You don't need needle valves for low pressure gas systems like these we are building with Honeywell valves. For high pressure systems above 1/2 psi yes then they are great. For low pressure the little ball valve that is on the back of the orifice that I used to attach to the burners are plenty for flame control.

You may want to go with a pid from Auber or wherever that supports both on/off relay mode and SSR. The reason I say this is because I ended up selling the control panel I made and ended up going electric. If you ever decide to go electric later you can use the same pid if it supports an SSR. If you look in "My Brew Rig" in my signature at the bottom you will see how I converted my rig to a Kal clone from the electric brewery. I absolutely love my rig and I am very happy I went this route. It works flawlessly and is very consistent when making the same beer again. Something to think about.....

John

Did you ever run the gas rig John? Looks like it was a beauty. Yours kegs are pretty bad ass too! Can you give me a little background on why you went electric and what to watch out for on my gas build? I don't have room on my garage panel to go electric but I'm still curious.

Cheers!

Nick

The gas rig works great in manual mode with no automation. Matter of fact since I took off the pilot valves I can still run the rig in full gas manual if I wanted to. I can brew on it or have a crab boil or use it for whatever! No, I never finished wiring the elaborate box that I made so I never got to use it in full automation. I am not that electronically savvy and I bit off more than I could chew so to speak with the box I was trying to make. If I went with a simpler box like I should have then I probably could have gotten it to work. Making stuff and fabricating things I have no problem doing but electronics I am lacking and I didn't trust myself in the end that I was doing it correctly. I should have made a simple box and that would have been fine without all the lights, timer, and alarms. Then I could have finished it.

So it sat for a long time and life got in the way also for a while. It worked out for the best though. As it sat I started to see more and more electric rigs and I really liked the idea of electric brewing. All the power and BTU's go right into the liquid you are heating so there is very little waste of power. With the gas burners there is a lot of heat waste not being transferred directly into the liquid. Plus with gas it is hotter near the stand. Also I was hearing from others that they were having problems with keeping the mash temps where you want them as there is drift when the heat shuts off. This happens on manual brewing also. When I saw Kal's rig on "The Electric Brewery.com" I knew that was the route I wanted to go. So it took more time and more money but I went for it and am very happy I did. Mash temps are dead on and they stay there once reached.

With your gas system I would make a drip leg in your plumbing like I did (you can see it in the original pics). This way if you get a boil over or spill some water on your burner the liquid will go into the drip leg and not go into your Honeywell valve. My drip leg had a little screw cap on the bottom that could be unscrewed if this happened to let the liquid out, instead of having to undo all the plumbing. This is a good thing to add in my opinion and will save a headache if this ever happens.

Go with a quality gas sealant on your pipe fittings. I used stainless steel pipe so I used a Loctite product for stainless steel. It is still tacky today and doesn't leak any gas.

I got my propane gas hose that goes from my propane tank to my stand made by Tejas Smokers (tejassmokers.com). They make them 3/8 inch in diameter and not 1/4 inch. They also will drill out the little gismo in the fitting so when you hook it up and draw propane into your stand it doesn't activate the shut off system or freeze up the tank.

Depending on whether you are using keggles or pots to brew on and how your burners are mounted, you may have to raise your pots or keggles about an inch on your stand. This allows proper combustion and exhaust. You can use some flat bar and make four of them for each vessel and put them on your stand and then put the vessels on top of the flat bar. This will give you a good flame under your vessel without it going up the sides and you can get a blue flame with orange/yellow tips. These are some things that might help you out. Good luck on your build. Go for it and get her done!

John