I recently have been very temped to go pro with my brewing in the next couple years. I'm pretty timid when it comes to "selling" my beer. I am not looking to get rich, just earn a living close to what I make now(30-40k-ish). I dont know much about the buisness end of things. That being said, a brewpub(no food) sounds fun, but do I sell pints for $2-$4, or six packs for $6-$8? Brewpub seems like more overhead and more exspensive beer prices, retail could be lower overhead and cheaper beer prices. Havent even checked my local laws, but there has been a ton of winerys popping up around here. Maybe they have it easier, I dont know. Probably would be doing 40 gal batches, corny kegs or 12oz bottles. Any input is appreciated!
Brewpub or Retail only?
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Check your local laws, that alone will tell you if you want to get involved.
I know here in WA. you have to serve food id you serve alcohol.
If you plan on using cornies I would get stated on buying them NOW.
The stock of them is not getting any larger, Pepsi and Coke have stopped using and buying them.
Retail Sales of beer may involve much more that opening a simple brewpub.
Truth be told I am always a fan of a brewpub. If I could find a decent one near by I would be surfing from there.
I would PM Brewtopia he is in his second year of owning a brewpub.
-Jason
I know here in WA. you have to serve food id you serve alcohol.
If you plan on using cornies I would get stated on buying them NOW.
The stock of them is not getting any larger, Pepsi and Coke have stopped using and buying them.
Retail Sales of beer may involve much more that opening a simple brewpub.
Truth be told I am always a fan of a brewpub. If I could find a decent one near by I would be surfing from there.
I would PM Brewtopia he is in his second year of owning a brewpub.
-Jason
FireNightFly
Well-Known Member
Id recommend doing both retail & a brewpub. I would also recommend doing lots of research. Also, make something that stands out of the crowd. Good luck.
carnevoodoo
Well-Known Member
How do you run a brewpub with no food? I don't think that would fly.
Packaging breweries have less operational costs, but more to deal with in regards to bottling or kegging.
And at 40 gallons at a time, you're not going to make a living. For a salary that you're accustomed to, you'll need to think 7BBL minimum. Most people who run nanobreweries have other jobs and break fairly even.
mezak1gd
Well-Known Member
No experience here, in fact I am even fairly new to the homebrew business. However I can share a few things. I occasionally work with a brewery in my college town of Mt. Pleasant, MI. It is Mount Pleasant Brewing Company. They started out with a restaurant based around the Brewery (Mountain Town Station), and have since progressed to selling 6 packs and such in the Central/Northern Michigan area.
It seems this is the logical progression. You need a commercial site to brew (legally, I believe you must brew on commercial zoning), so you might as well sell your beer on the premises. From my understanding it is much easier to sell your own beer in your brewpub than through the distribution channel. I wold suggest having at least a small menu as well as the beer alone won't be profitable at least at the beginning.
There are many laws relating to this and I would suggest starting on several posts on this topic on this website. I'm sure there are many examples of this type of startup around the US and I would suggest starting by talking to somebody who has done this. If you can't find anything give Mountain Town Brewing a call. MI laws are different from wherever you are, but you can probably learn a few things. Good Luck.
It seems this is the logical progression. You need a commercial site to brew (legally, I believe you must brew on commercial zoning), so you might as well sell your beer on the premises. From my understanding it is much easier to sell your own beer in your brewpub than through the distribution channel. I wold suggest having at least a small menu as well as the beer alone won't be profitable at least at the beginning.
There are many laws relating to this and I would suggest starting on several posts on this topic on this website. I'm sure there are many examples of this type of startup around the US and I would suggest starting by talking to somebody who has done this. If you can't find anything give Mountain Town Brewing a call. MI laws are different from wherever you are, but you can probably learn a few things. Good Luck.
HickoryMike
Well-Known Member
You have a lot of other things to research before you start thinking about how to price your beer.
THEN, after all your research, you need to find $1million (and more than that if you want to open a restaurant) and you probably couldn't dream of paying yourself $40k per year for at least 5 years...and that's if you find one hell of a niche in the market.
I respect the fact that this forum is all about encouragement, but I detected a high level of naiveté in your post.
THEN, after all your research, you need to find $1million (and more than that if you want to open a restaurant) and you probably couldn't dream of paying yourself $40k per year for at least 5 years...and that's if you find one hell of a niche in the market.
I respect the fact that this forum is all about encouragement, but I detected a high level of naiveté in your post.
HickoryMike
Well-Known Member
Just in case you really are prepared for this journey, how about some real input to your questions....
Wineries DO have it much easier than breweries. Some states are more difficult than others...do some homework there.
No matter how you start (brewpub, nanobrewery, etc) you don't want to mess with bottles initially. Bottles and bottling equipment is expensive and a pain in the ass and this method will not help you move the quantity you'll need as a startup. Also, if you have a brewpub, it's FAR more profitable to sell a draft pint for $4 than to sell a sixer for $10. Also, there are many more tax and permit issues when bottling...and let's not even touch the three-tier distribution system.
Wineries DO have it much easier than breweries. Some states are more difficult than others...do some homework there.
No matter how you start (brewpub, nanobrewery, etc) you don't want to mess with bottles initially. Bottles and bottling equipment is expensive and a pain in the ass and this method will not help you move the quantity you'll need as a startup. Also, if you have a brewpub, it's FAR more profitable to sell a draft pint for $4 than to sell a sixer for $10. Also, there are many more tax and permit issues when bottling...and let's not even touch the three-tier distribution system.
If you are expecting to replace an income like that, then a serious look at the business end of things will be crucial. Relative to all the other tasks involved with a brewpub, making the beer is easy. This is in no small part due to the fact that it's the fun part. As others have said, marketing is key, and the day to day grind of how to run a business is also very important.
My wife and I have been running a small winery in Missouri for over 11 years now. All along I've been saying that my plans are to add beer to our list of offerings. That concept is only recently getting closer to reality. My initial thoughts were to just offer draft in our salesroom, filling a niche that we know exists. However, the closer we get to putting this faction of our business in place, the more requests we receive for a bottled or kegged product. Fortunately, at the same time we are also seeing a bit of interest from potential investors, so this could get out of hand real easily.
I guess my point is that you can take this in just about any direction you'd like. So far, I've read two books on startup breweries:
Beer School by Steve Hindey and Tom Potter of Brooklyn Brewery
and
Brewing up a Business by Sam Calagione of Dogfish Head
These two plans were quite separate in both philosophy and starting/operating capital. Both ended up with some serious backers that not only diverted disaster, but also allowed timely growth. But they still don't encompass the full range possible for brewery operation.
The prime example of a minimalist operation was a small brewery near Willow Springs, Missouri called "Little Yeoman Brewery". An older gentlemen bonded his garage and started bottling batches from carboys, five gallons at a time. I did not have a chance to ever visit his place (heard he recently sold it, which is the best way to make money with a brewery!), but quite a few of my friends/customers (that line blurs rather quickly, especially when they bring me beer) had brought me assorted six packs of what the old guy was brewing. They all had character, without screaming flaws; they were bottle conditioned; and the labels looked like they were printed straight off of a desktop printer. I can only imagine that he was retired, and was not seeking a 40k income from his operation, but the point is that you can start at any level. You don't have to jump right into a fern bar microbrewery with millions of op dollars.
Our brewery will most likely be somewhere between Little Yeoman and Dogfish Head. With the groundswell we've received from potential investors, I could picture it expanding even further and faster, even though we haven't quite taken on opening an escrow account. Nothing is quite as tell tale as when you actually ask for that check!
So keep asking questions, including those that address your heart. A properly done business plan will help tremendously with finding both the questions and answers necessary.
You have actually already posed one of the more important questions, "just how much revenue do I need to see". This is exactly how I've operated our winery, which is quite a different game as the inventory has to be produced on an annual basis with annual forecasts. For me, without actually getting started, beer is already looking much easier:
- higher profit margin (for brewpub in our situation; pre-existing
salesroom, no bottle inventory, no distribution, no bottling equipment required) - inventory is readily renewed
- materials are readily available.
Anyway, good luck with your dreams..... as luck may be one of the more important ingredients.
I say follow what you believe. If you believe you can make this happen, you can. I am planning to open a place too. I am working on the business plan now and hope to start seeking money within the year.
I have to two ideas that I plan to melt into one. Showcase wood fire pizza oven and craft beer. You don't need a million dollars. You can start for as little as $50,000 if you start real small. I figure my situation will take about $200,000, plus operating expenses for at least 6 months.
I have a dream and little by little it is coming together. Don't listen to the naysayers that claim it is too hard or can't be done. They don't have the will power to do it. They don't have the drive so they crush everyone else down to their thinking. If you are passionate about it. It will happen.
I have to two ideas that I plan to melt into one. Showcase wood fire pizza oven and craft beer. You don't need a million dollars. You can start for as little as $50,000 if you start real small. I figure my situation will take about $200,000, plus operating expenses for at least 6 months.
I have a dream and little by little it is coming together. Don't listen to the naysayers that claim it is too hard or can't be done. They don't have the will power to do it. They don't have the drive so they crush everyone else down to their thinking. If you are passionate about it. It will happen.
Have you read Sam Calagione's story? Wood fired pizza was a major focus of his. Not that you shouldn't carry that on, especially given the distance between you and the Delaware coast. I should also note that he started with 10 gallon batches. Obviously his focus was a restaurant that happened to brew beer, but he now has a separate microbrewery that is doing 10,000 bbl+ a year.
Good idea to take what you figure and then tack on another 20% (if you didn't already do that). That way you won't overspend your goal by quite so much.
maida7
Well-Known Member
no expert by any stretch of the imagination but from what I understand only very large breweries get to put thier beer in 12 oz bottles. Even a mid sized brew pub can only hope to do 22oz bottles and/or growlers. And all those are filled by hand. Its that the bottling equipment is crazy expensive.
I think starting out the best you could do is to sell kegs to the local bars and sell pints and fill growlers from a tasting room at your brewery. Your brewery will probably be in some ugly industrial park and you will be delivering the kegs out of a broken down van.
Before you jump off the deep end why don't you get a job at a brewery and see how things work from the inside.
I think starting out the best you could do is to sell kegs to the local bars and sell pints and fill growlers from a tasting room at your brewery. Your brewery will probably be in some ugly industrial park and you will be delivering the kegs out of a broken down van.
Before you jump off the deep end why don't you get a job at a brewery and see how things work from the inside.
ronaldo_fanbelt
Well-Known Member
+1 on the pizza, and beer idea.
Have you read Sam Calagione's story? Wood fired pizza was a major focus of his. Not that you shouldn't carry that on, especially given the distance between you and the Delaware coast. I should also note that he started with 10 gallon batches. Obviously his focus was a restaurant that happened to brew beer, but he now has a separate microbrewery that is doing 10,000 bbl+ a year.
Good idea to take what you figure and then tack on another 20% (if you didn't already do that). That way you won't overspend your goal by quite so much.
I have read the Brewing up a business book. It was very inspiring. The pizza idea came from a friend. He is a professional baker. He also builds wood fired ovens. Everything in his bakery is done with a wood fire. He has agreed to help me build the oven. We were best friends in high school. My oven will be centered in the restaurant so every table can see it. You will watch your pizza being made from your seat.
OP I am a firm believer in positive thinking. If you focus your energy wholly into something and never have doubts. All things will come together.
So my vote is PUB first then retail.
I know that in WA state there are at least a few breweries/brewpubs where they serve beer and provide tables for you to bring in food.
http://www.hoodcanalbrewery.com/
http://www.hoodcanalbrewery.com/
are you in Eagle, Nebraska? If so I'm in Lincoln.
last I heard, the only breweries allowed in the state had to be located within a restaurant. there was a bill in 2009 legislature to change this an allow a fixed number of traditional breweries, but I don't know if it passed.
that's why the only local beers we have in Lincoln are at Misty's, Lazlo's, etc. Omaha has Upstream Brewing restaurant for the same reasons.
last I heard, the only breweries allowed in the state had to be located within a restaurant. there was a bill in 2009 legislature to change this an allow a fixed number of traditional breweries, but I don't know if it passed.
that's why the only local beers we have in Lincoln are at Misty's, Lazlo's, etc. Omaha has Upstream Brewing restaurant for the same reasons.
Actually I live in Eagle, CO
Sorry I had to. Too big of a coincidence. I know you were referring to the OP. I do however actually live in Eagle
Sorry I had to. Too big of a coincidence. I know you were referring to the OP. I do however actually live in Eagle
JKoravos
Well-Known Member
I think others have stated it, as well...don;t do it unless you are just as interested in running a business as you are in making great beer. Running the business is the hard part.
and, +1 to the guy who said marketing sells beer. Have a catchy brand name and be prepared to beat the street to get your brand out there.
and, +1 to the guy who said marketing sells beer. Have a catchy brand name and be prepared to beat the street to get your brand out there.
Thats was what i figured, but how does Sam Spilker do it? I think Thunderhead and Modern Monks brew in resturants.
BTW just did the chalkboard thing on a couple cornies
caver95
Well-Known Member
Read the E-myth revisited. Do you have any business back round? I am doing my Capstone class for my degree this semester I have to do a business and marketing plan for a local business, There are many people out there that have businesses leveraged to the hilt and are pretty much a bankruptcy looking for a place to happen. There was a beer and wine place in Tallahassee that was for sale for 40 grand an accountant and some other guy started it. they want to get out of the lease and are paying a business broker 10k. They have invested over 200k but did not reserve enough for marketing. have the support of your family, write out a personal and business plan. My wife wants to start a wine and cheese shop, and I just started a carpet cleaning company once that can pay for the shop we will open it. We are not taking on any debt to do this, it will be a long and slow process we are looking at 3-5 years. Good luck with it.
Good Luck in your journey and I hope you succeed. I echo everyone's statement above but I'd like to add something.
I worked in a nice restaurant as a cook for awhile. The restaurant wasn't making too much money but it was surviving(steakhouse). In the midst of day to day operations some employees were left without paychecks. Being one of them, I subsidized my work by enjoying take home food and drink from there.
What I'm trying to say is if you finally get going, keep your employees happy or they will make you suffer. You can have great beer and food but if your service isn't happy, the customers won't be either.
I worked in a nice restaurant as a cook for awhile. The restaurant wasn't making too much money but it was surviving(steakhouse). In the midst of day to day operations some employees were left without paychecks. Being one of them, I subsidized my work by enjoying take home food and drink from there.
What I'm trying to say is if you finally get going, keep your employees happy or they will make you suffer. You can have great beer and food but if your service isn't happy, the customers won't be either.
Talloak
Well-Known Member
My local brewery is the owner, and one employee. He seems to have a lot of family support behind him. He brews 7bbl once or twice a day. He distributes half barrels to local bars himself in his van. He also distributes his six packs to numerous local liquor stores. They are priced from $9-$14. Every Saturday he gives 'tours' from 1-5pm, where you can see the entire brewery from the table where he sells growlers and pint taps for $4. I think during the summer months, he makes most of his money on Saturdays because a lot of people move in and out for those $15 growlers and $4 taps. The brewery is in a real crappy building, but people basically tailgate in the front lawn for hours.
Just kind of rambling here, but wanted to show you that you can get into bottling fairly quickly. He has been in business since 1996 and still delivers himself in a van. Take what you can from that I geuss.
Just kind of rambling here, but wanted to show you that you can get into bottling fairly quickly. He has been in business since 1996 and still delivers himself in a van. Take what you can from that I geuss.
First, research your liquor laws. In Oregon, licensing for breweries, brewpubs and distribution are three separate matters.
There are several brewers around here that have 1 barrel systems. It means brewing every day, sometimes twice. And buy used equipment. There are systems around here that are on their 4-5th breweries, good breweries tend to expand.
Both the naysayers and the "will power uber alles" types are likely to be wrong. Success is a combination of good products, marketing/distribution, research, funding, timing and luck.
There are several brewers around here that have 1 barrel systems. It means brewing every day, sometimes twice. And buy used equipment. There are systems around here that are on their 4-5th breweries, good breweries tend to expand.
Both the naysayers and the "will power uber alles" types are likely to be wrong. Success is a combination of good products, marketing/distribution, research, funding, timing and luck.
Hillbilly_Bill
Well-Known Member
Any progress on the red tape?
WOW thanks to everyone who chimed in, I thought I might only get a couple responses. I know we all think of goin pro, and thats all Im doin is thinkin'. I read a BYO article on three "professional homebrewers", and eversince its all Ive thought about. I really just dont think of some big operation, a small place is what I see, be it a small brewpub with minimal food or just a small brewery. In high school I made pizza and was damn good at it and always thought if I hade to make food, it would definetly be pizza. Really not sure if there is even a demand around here, most of these necks enjoy the comfort of a blue and chrome can. Please continue to give your advice good news or bad, I need to hear it all.
What I would do would be brew and distribute to local bars to have on tap and maybe do some bottling so you can get your name out there. Once you have a solid market and have recouped some of the equipment expenses start up a brewpub. I guess you could also do it the other way around, but retail first allows you to get the brewing equipment, recoup costs, and then invest in cooking equipment.
My dream is a small brewpub in SoCal rather than just brewing because I have some great pizza and burger recipes.
My dream is a small brewpub in SoCal rather than just brewing because I have some great pizza and burger recipes.
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