over 6 months in primary=raison flavor?

Williams 728
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gointomexico

gointomexico

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This is the second beer that I have done like this. 5 months of saying, "eh, i shold relaly keg that beer... mabie after 1 more round of Call of Duty" 6 months later I was looking for some beer and said, "Gee, I got 5 gallons sitting right here." So, I kegged it, and force carbed it. It was suposed to be an ESB, but its not very bitter, and has the color of a brown ale. it was also very cloudy, and it doesnt seem to want to settle out.

Does anyone have any tips of getting rid of the raison taste, or blending it with something else that would complement the raisons? Im thinking about adding geleten that I have sitting around to clear it, and mabie re-fermenting with some new yeast to add more carbonation. Probobly not in that order.

Recipie:
1# Victory (could be vienna)
12 oz briess crystal
11# am. 2 row
1 oz galena 60 min
1 oz perle 60 min
1 oz willimite 15 min
1 oz Kent Goldings 10 min
1t irish moss 15 min
Yeast: safale 05

mash 148 1 hr
og: 1.072 at 78 (un corrected)
FG: 1.006

Primary: Sept or Oct of 08
Kegged on: Apr 08 of 09 (force carbed)
 
after 6 months. this beer should be crystal clear, without even taking in the irish moss. And that raison taste could be yeast autolysis. I have never left a beer in primary that long but I am just commenting to bump this up.

If this beer isnt clear thats just odd. Sanitation issues?
 
Arneba28 said:
after 6 months. this beer should be crystal clear, without even taking in the irish moss. And that raison taste could be yeast autolysis. I have never left a beer in primary that long but I am just commenting to bump this up.

If this beer isnt clear thats just odd. Sanitation issues?
Click to expand...

agreed....how confident are/were you with your sanitation?
 
Not sure why you have a raisin taste. Could be an ester. Or it could be an infection. It is not likely to be autolysis.

Is there any sourness or vineger taste? [EDIT] Hmm.. looking at your OG and FG it could be a super attenuater (wild yeast) like Saccharomyces diastaticus, which will ferment a wide range of carbohydrates, including dextrins. (see pg 84, 85 "Principles of Brewing Science - 2nd addition", George Fix)

Does it taste overly dry? Is there a lack of head?

If it is not an infection then.....

While it should have cleared after 6 months, I have had some stubborn brews that just won't clear. You could try filtration.

Age it in the keg fridge for a while, should settle out the yeast and maybe mellow the raisin taste. Give it a couple weeks. Most of yeast that settles should come out in the first couple of pints. Avoid bumping the keg once you start drinking from it to keep from disturbing any yeast that sticks to the bottom and hasn't already been sucked up the pickup tube.
 
Geee... i don't see myself ever even being able to let a beer sit 6 months in primary like that...
I don't really see the advantage of letting it that long either, seems way overkill to me.

after two weeks the fermentation is supposed to be done and ready to move on to keg, bottles or secondary if one should insist on aging, not that it makes such a difference IMO.

I have tasted beer (from my neighbor who taught be how to brew) that had been sitting 3 months in primary and then another month in secondary and then bottled conditioned for an additional month and while the beer was good and clear, I wasn't that impressed with the flavor compared to the regular stuff i do which is: "2 weeks in primary then bottle condition for a week or 2 and drink it".

In my humble opinion, there comes a time when the extra waiting becomes ridiculous and is not gonna do that much of a difference on the final product anyways to most common people's taste palate.
 
That's a fairly big beer that finished low. The higher alcohols produced can react with the acidic beer to create dark fruit flavors...but it takes a long time to happen. I'm not saying that's what the raisin flavor is...just mentioning it (and I'm just repeating what I've read...I haven't experienced or tasted it). I know one source was Kaiser's Imperator (Doppelbock) recipe...at the very end. I think another was Palmer.
 
Araxi said:
What the heck is raison? is that a french word?
Click to expand...
It's in the french dictionary next to mabie :D

Stef1966 said:
Geee... i don't see myself ever even being able to let a beer sit 6 months in primary like that...
I don't really see the advantage of letting it that long either, seems way overkill to me.....
Click to expand...

He didn't do this for any particular reason, he just kept putting it of and putting it off. He should have watched Pinky Dinky Doo last weekend and he would have learned all about procrastination!
 
From what I've heard...COD can do this to people.

That might be a good idea for some of the more impatient brewers actually...get COD so they will allow the beer to finish.:D
 
SpanishCastleAle said:
From what I've heard...COD can do this to people.

That might be a good idea for some of the more impatient brewers actually...get COD so they will allow the beer to finish.:D
Click to expand...

you put this in your beer?

murray_cod.jpg
 
Conpewter, he meant Cash On Delivery. Put some pennies and nickles in beer and the COD will really assist the flavor.

Oxidation is what the raisin flavor is. Take a bottle of $2 wine, pour a glass and leave it on the counter for two days. Raisin will fly from the glass, followed very quickly (another three or four days) by vinegar from the acetic acid starting to eat the alcohol.
 
Matt Up North said:
Conpewter, he meant Cash On Delivery. Put some pennies and nickles in beer and the COD will really assist the flavor.

Oxidation is what the raisin flavor is. Take a bottle of $2 wine, pour a glass and leave it on the counter for two days. Raisin will fly from the glass, followed very quickly (another three or four days) by vinegar from the acetic acid starting to eat the alcohol.
Click to expand...

Acetic acid doesn't 'eat' the alcohol. It's what alcohol turns into upon oxidation.
 
IrregularPulse said:
It's in the french dictionary next to mabie :D


He didn't do this for any particular reason, he just kept putting it of and putting it off. He should have watched Pinky Dinky Doo last weekend and he would have learned all about procrastination!
Click to expand...

Yes, its French, Its like a regular raisin but more sophisticated and it hates americans
 
mkade said:
I am aware. As I said, acetic acid is the result of ethanol oxidation. The fact remains that acetic acid, an organic molecule, does not eat ethanol, or anything else for that matter.
Click to expand...

But without mentioning the way alcohol turns into acetic acid is like me saying that wood oxidizes into heat and carbon.
 
conpewter said:
But without mentioning the way alcohol turns into acetic acid is like me saying that wood oxidizes into heat and carbon.
Click to expand...

I would have to disagree. All I was saying is that original statement implied that acetic acid was acetobacter, and that vinegar is the product. Acetic acid and acetobacter are not the same thing. Vinegar and acetic acid are not the same thing, the same way that beer and ethanol are not the same thing. I am baffled by the idea that I should have to explicitly describe the pathway for acetic acid production in wine that is left out for several days. For example, if I said that ethanol is a product of fermentation, would I have to outline glycolysis pathways and intermediates involved in fermentation? If I mentioned that Maillard reactions in the boil could affect the final beer, do I have to discuss the condensation mechanism by which reducing sugars react with primary amines to form Amadori complexes (e.g. N-glucosylamine). This seems silly. I understand if you're trying to give me a hard time for correcting someone on a silly mistake. That's fair enough. But come on now, I think these forums often skip the finer points of the chemistry that takes place in beer making.
 
Yes, its French, Its like a regular raisin but more sophisticated and it hates americans
Click to expand...

*LMAO* Do French hate all Americans?
I never knew about that... sad really. :(

Im a French Speaking guy and "Raison" means "Reason" in English, just like in the saying "There's a reason for everything" as an example.

I'll gladly translate anything being put in French to English if needed. :)
 
mkade said:
I would have to disagree. All I was saying is that original statement implied that acetic acid was acetobacter, and that vinegar is the product. Acetic acid and acetobacter are not the same thing. Vinegar and acetic acid are not the same thing, the same way that beer and ethanol are not the same thing. I am baffled by the idea that I should have to explicitly describe the pathway for acetic acid production in wine that is left out for several days. For example, if I said that ethanol is a product of fermentation, would I have to outline glycolysis pathways and intermediates involved in fermentation? If I mentioned that Maillard reactions in the boil could affect the final beer, do I have to discuss the condensation mechanism by which reducing sugars react with primary amines to form Amadori complexes (e.g. N-glucosylamine). This seems silly. I understand if you're trying to give me a hard time for correcting someone on a silly mistake. That's fair enough. But come on now, I think these forums often skip the finer points of the chemistry that takes place in beer making.
Click to expand...

Yes I understand, but I just thought it was incomplete because beer left out won't just oxidize into acetic acid. I didn't want anyone fearing that their beer will over time turn sour.
 
Fair enough. I do think that eventually, even without acetobacter, your beer would still oxidize over time from atmospheric oxygen into acetic acid, though that's on a completely different time scale.
 
"What color crystal?"

The crystal I used was 40L, can that cause a raisin flavor?



"If this beer isnt clear thats just odd. Sanitation issues?"

I think my sanitation is alright, not great. I use idophor and rinse out my stuff with boiled water. I use some leftover boiled water to start my siphons if I need too. I don't think I have ever had an infection, or lets say I haven't ever had a beer so badly infected that I wouldn't drink it.



"Is there any sourness or vineger taste?"
It does have a drying mouth feel, but everyone that drinks it says it tastes like watery raisins. I could say that it was sour, but only ever so slightly.



"oxidation is what the raisin flavor is"
I'm thinking that this might be it, because my air lock ran out of water sometime within those six months, and I am guessing that my beer would be exposed to air for about 4 months total. Do you think that would do it?

The beer is quite a bit clearer today after sitting in the fridge for a couple of days. The raisin flavor has gone down some, but its still there. The beer does taste thin to me, and it doesn't hold but a quarter of an inch of head. I was thinking the lack of head retention is due to me not force carbonating it enough.

I'm thinking about blending a young stout with this beer to make it drinkable. Thanks for all of your help! Any more ideas on the beer would be great too.
 
Stef1966 said:
Geee... i don't see myself ever even being able to let a beer sit 6 months in primary like that...
I don't really see the advantage of letting it that long either, seems way overkill to me.

after two weeks the fermentation is supposed to be done and ready to move on to keg, bottles or secondary if one should insist on aging, not that it makes such a difference IMO.

I have tasted beer (from my neighbor who taught be how to brew) that had been sitting 3 months in primary and then another month in secondary and then bottled conditioned for an additional month and while the beer was good and clear, I wasn't that impressed with the flavor compared to the regular stuff i do which is: "2 weeks in primary then bottle condition for a week or 2 and drink it".

In my humble opinion, there comes a time when the extra waiting becomes ridiculous and is not gonna do that much of a difference on the final product anyways to most common people's taste palate.
Click to expand...


Many higher OG beers benifit from months to years of aging.
 
I'm thinking that this might be it, because my air lock ran out of water sometime within those six months, and I am guessing that my beer would be exposed to air for about 4 months total. Do you think that would do it?
Click to expand...
That def adds a big red flag. And if there were temp fluctuations that would just cause the whole thing to 'breathe' more.
 
Many higher OG beers benifit from months to years of aging
Click to expand...

That confirms my thoughts then. i never shoot for something higher than about 5% ABV, i like to be able to drink a few and not be too hammered.
 
I know this thread is super old, bit I got the raisin taste again in a stout. I think i uses the same fermenterin this brew as I did with that old one. I got 85 percent attn and a raisin taste. So, after 3 years its probobly an infection. I guess its time to retire the ol ale pale after 10 years of service.
 
gointomexico, yeah if you reused that old fermenter, I am willing to bet that sanitation methods are overstepped by the fact that the fermenter was infected at one point in time. When you mentioned that the airlock was dry for four months....that is just the same as having the lid off of the beer and allowing whatever ambient microbiota to enter into the fermenter...thus a post-fermentation infection, meaning lower FGs and that familiar raisin flavor that aged beers possess. Which is how alot of really good beers are made, it just throws off your system as a homebrewer.You should try a commercial example of an english old ale, full of that raisin flavor, which i think is delicious in a good example. Orrrr if you can get it, try the weyebacher heresy, its a Imp stout, but has that aged, raisin flavor. But, anyway, some old ales are aged in wood that has a variety of natural, wildish yeasts that achieve that really low FG on big beers. The point is that is seems that your beer got fermented, infected, and aged, sounds good to me. Do they taste good? any problems with carbing if you bottle them? And, are you using plastic fermenters? if so that wild microbiota is pretty much there to stay, and if you dont want it to be in your brewery and future beers i would toss it and replace old plastic tubes, etc. Just some thoughts.
 

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