1st 10 Gal AG APA recipe, please critique.

I have never First Wort Hopped, so I thought I'd give it a whirl. I have converted this recipe from a 5 gal extract version I made that came out quite good. I changed my 20 minute hop additions to 15 minutes and reduced my bittering addition by half due to the FWH addition. What do you think?

Type: All Grain
Date: 6/15/2009
Batch Size: 10.00 gal
Brewer: Broken Glass Brewery
Boil Size: 13.43 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My Equipment - Brew Pot (15 Gal) and Coleman Xtreme Cooler (52 qt)
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
212.00 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 65.43 %
40.00 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 12.35 %
40.00 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 12.35 %
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.60 %] (75 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 8.5 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [7.50 %] (75 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 7.4 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [7.50 %] (60 min) Hops 6.5 IBU
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.90 %] (60 min) Hops 7.7 IBU
0.75 oz Cascade [7.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.8 IBU
0.75 oz Amarillo Gold [8.90 %] (15 min) Hops 5.7 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (5 min) Hops 2.9 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [7.50 %] (5 min) Hops 2.6 IBU
2.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.90 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
2.00 oz Cascade [7.50 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
1.25 oz Amarillo Gold [8.90 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
1.25 oz Cascade [7.50 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
2.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
32.00 oz Turbinado Candi Syrup(10.0 SRM) Sugar 9.88 %
1 Pkgs California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [Starter 4000 ml] Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.061 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.16 %
Bitterness: 46.1 IBU Calories: 252 cal/pint
Est Color: 12.0 SRM

Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 292.00 oz
Sparge Water: 9.95 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 22.81 qt of water at 170.7 F 154.0 F

Looks like WAY too much crystal and victory. That's 25% of your grain bill that is loaded with unfermentables. I'd take out the candi syrup and do like 90% 2 row then maybe about 10% between the other two. This looks like overkill w/ the specialty grains.

If I was going to make a 10 gallon APA I'd just use Edworts Pale Ale and double everything to go from 5 gallons to 10 gallons.

michael.berta said:

Looks like WAY too much crystal and victory. That's 25% of your grain bill that is loaded with unfermentables. I'd take out the candi syrup and do like 90% 2 row then maybe about 10% between the other two. This looks like overkill w/ the specialty grains.

If I was going to make a 10 gallon APA I'd just use Edworts Pale Ale and double everything to go from 5 gallons to 10 gallons.

Click to expand...

Okay, I'm open to cutting back on the crystal, but why the victory? Ed's recipe would have 4lbs of Vienna in it if I were to double it, I understand that Vienna has more diastitic power than victory, but why cut back on the victory?

I like the toasty flavor of the Victory. Like I said I made this as an extract and it turned out well.

Did you steep the Victory? You get more out of Victory in a mash than in a steep.

Victory is by no means "unfermentable", but it will have a significant impact.

Cheers,

Bob

That is a lot of victory. I do a Sierra Nevada Anniversary Ale clone that only has 6ozs in a 5 gallon batch, it's noticeable.

If it were me, 1.5pounds on the crystal 40, and a pound pound and a half max on the Victory, it should make a nice pale. And figure your grains in pounds not ounces. And I would ditch the sugar as well.

But it's your baby.

Schnitzengiggle said:

Okay, I'm open to cutting back on the crystal, but why the victory? Ed's recipe would have 4lbs of Vienna in it if I were to double it, I understand that Vienna has more diastitic power than victory, but why cut back on the victory?

I like the toasty flavor of the Victory. Like I said I made this as an extract and it turned out well.

Click to expand...

A little Victory goes a long way. As NQ3X suggests, you may get more out of it mashing than steeping in an extract batch, if in fact that's how you used it before.

I'd cut the Victory back to maybe 6% or 7% of the total grain bill, especially since you're using Maris Otter, which in itself gives a bit of that nutty character.

EDIT: Scratch the Maris Otter comment. I was thinking of someone else's recipe. Still I'd say 6% to 7% on the Victory, MO or no.

Okay, so general consensus, cut back on the Crystal and Victory, increase the 2-Row, and drop the sugar.

What does everyone think of the hopping schedule?

Schnitzengiggle said:

What does everyone think of the hopping schedule?

Click to expand...

I like it, except the 5 minute adds. I don't do them on pales and ipa's, you get a lot more aroma from a flameout addition, of course I don't always dryhop.

Schnitzengiggle said:

Okay, so general consensus, cut back on the Crystal and Victory, increase the 2-Row, and drop the sugar.

What does everyone think of the hopping schedule?

Click to expand...

Look OK to me. I like Amarillo/Cascade. In fact I just brewed an APA with that combo. I used my late hops at 10 and 0 instead of 15 and 5, but that's hardly a big change. I've never done a FWH so I can't comment on that piece.

StunnedMonkey said:

Look OK to me. I like Amarillo/Cascade. In fact I just brewed an APA with that combo. I used my late hops at 10 and 0 instead of 15 and 5, but that's hardly a big change. I've never done a FWH so I can't comment on that piece.

Click to expand...

I just read up on some FWH threads, it is my understanding that hop forward beers can benefit from it, so I thought to hell with it, I'll give it a go. I change my mind often, and I have to fidget with my recipe tonight and make my final changes, so we'll see exactly what I end up with.

The hops schedule looks good to thems as like such a thing. But then, I'm not a big fan of "hops monsters", so I rarely brew them. I've given up practicing such a lot of additions; I've always been successful with two simple techniques: FWH and flameout/dry hop; or 60-20-flameout/dry-hop.

These days it's by far more often the former than the latter. I really like the flavors and smooth bitterness I get from FWH. When I do FWH - which is whenever a flavor addition is required - I don't bother with another 60-minute addition. In fact, I'm really stumped as to the point. Adding a traditional bittering charge at the traditional addition time in the boil is putting back the harsher perceived bitterness you're trying to remove by FWH. If switching from 60-minute to FWH drops your IBUs beyond where you want them to be, add more hops.

Moreover, you don't need a 20- or 15-minute addition, either. FWH gives an excellent whack of flavor; that's part of the point of doing FWH in the first place. For aroma, though, you do need a flameout addition or dry hops. The best IPA I ever brewed had two additions: FWH and dry hops.

Anyway. I won't hijack your thread to rant any more than that. Thanks for the venue.

Regards,

Bob

You will love the FWH, my last itteration of an IAPA that I brew was ALL FWH'ed.

Hop schedule looks fine and IBUs in the 40's isnt too bitter.

Sure you read it when exlporing FWH, but the IBUs that you get from FWH, do not taste like IBUs. Meaning that a FWH addition feels much more like a 30 minute IBU addition. In ProMash I have it set up to automatically calculate this when I choose FWH.

Meaning that the IBUs that you calculated for the FWH, will not be there when you drink it. It amounts to 23% fewer IBUs than a comparable 60 minute addition. Making the Cascade FWH more like 5.0 IBUs and the Amarillo more like 5.9 IBU, instead of what your software calculated.

Well, I stuck with my hop schedule, and changed the grain bill, I removed the candi syrup altogether, and added another 3 lbs of 2-row, added 2.5 lbs of vienna malt, reduced the crystal to 1.25 lbs, and reduced the victory to .5 lb. Kept my target gravity where I wanted it. I measured about 1.050 for a pre-boil SG, and 1.059. Beersmith calculated an efficiency of 78.88%, I say 79% to make it easy. All 10 gallons is happily fermenting away. I have to say though this was my first 10 gallon AG and it was the longest brewday ever! I started around 11:00am and I wasn't finished cleaning and storing my equipmemt till about 8:00pm!