Mashing basics - Help me out

My first post, hopefully not my last.

Heres the story. I work at a winery/distillery as the production manager. I understand all aspects of fermentation and distillation, but the hole in my current skills is related to mashing. We just recieved a ton (literally) of 2-row and I would like very much to not screw it up. I have read plenty of articles on the science and theory of mashing, but when I read the forums it seems much simpler than what I have been reading. I have most of a bio/chem major so its not like the reading was over my head either. My objective is not to make a nice, drinkable beer. My goal is to get as much conversion done as possible, so when I distill it into a single malt whiskey I get the highest yield possible. I have a 385 gallon stainless mash tun, un-insulated, closed top. I have a supply of hot water coming off the still from the condenser, at a fairly slow trickle; or I can heat up to 80 gallons at a time in the pot.

Heres the questions:
1. How much grain and how much water should I start with?

2. What temp water is sufficient for this volume?

3. How long should I let them hang out before straining and sparging?

4. Can I make a 10% abv wort from barley without adjuncts?

I know this is pretty general, but any insight would be helpful.

I'm having trouble believing this is for real.

Most of us, myself included, do 5-15 gallon batches. The theory is the same.

This really isn't complicated.

kbrighton said:

My first post, hopefully not my last.

Heres the questions:
1. How much grain and how much water should I start with? Usually the ratio of water to grain is >2qts water to 1lb grain. The thicker the mash the higher the gravity.

2. What temp water is sufficient for this volume? the typical mashing range is around 148-155F. The lower temperatures are less fermentable (sweeter), the higher temps more so (drier beer).

3. How long should I let them hang out before straining and sparging? Usually a homebrewer will mash for 60-90 minutes. Do not sparge over 170F. Sparging is just rinsing the grain to get more sugar off.

4. Can I make a 10% abv wort from barley without adjuncts? Yes. You can make 10% ABV or greater without adjuncts. This will require a thicker grain to water ratio in the mash or boiling longer.

I know this is pretty general, but any insight would be helpful.

Click to expand...

Also you didn't mention crushing the grain. To get the starch to convert you need to at a minimum crack the grain. The smaller the crush the more sugar will be converted. However flour is way too far.

Also Beer will not ferment dry like wine. expect your FG can stop around 1.030. I have had beers drop down to 1.004. Expect some where in between.

It is hard to comment on others because the there was not a recipe.

Here's the answers:
1. As much as you can fit in the mash tun. Use 1.25 quarts water per lb of grain

2. You want the mash to sit at 154F. You should start with hotter water because the mash tun and grain will soak up some of the heat

3. 1 hour at 154F for the mash to convert. You can check the conversion with an iodine test.

4. sure but you will either waste a lot of grain and/or you will need to boil it for a very long time

I'm with beeton on this one. Is this for real?

If so, you made a few mistakes already. First, there is a difference between brewers malt and distillers malt. Distillers buy malt as cheap packets of starch digesting enzymes not a source of starch. Distillers malt is the thin barley kernels that are high in protein and produce high levels of alpha-amylase and Disatatic power (DP) when germinated. To get even higher enzyme levels, maltsters add a plant hormone (gib) to the grain during steeping. 2 row is great for brewing but 6 row is used for distillers malt due to their higher protein levels and resulting higher enzyme levels. Second, you want adjunct starch as it is the best priced material to generate fermentable sugars using the distillers malt.

As far as your other questions:

1. I would suggest checking the distilling literature for grain to water ratios not rely on brewing ratios.
2. Mash in water temperatures at the large volume you are using is something you will need to work out based on vessel size, its composition, etc. A start can be about 20 degrees above final mash temperature.
3. Use the iodine test for conversion.
4. Why would you want to?

Good Luck.

Dr Malt

Your a production manager at a distillery and your asking us how to convert starches to sugar?
Either this is BS or you BS'ed your way into your job!

beeton said:

I'm having trouble believing this is for real.

Click to expand...

Ditto this.

OP knows all about "all aspects of fermentation and distillation, but the hole in my current skills is related to mashing".

Troll..... Be Gone.

Pretty sure if I go to Cedar Rapids I'll be getting my beer in cans at a convenience store.

/Subscribed for upcoming troll bashing.

maida7 said:

Here's the answers:
1. As much as you can fit in the mash tun. Use 1.25 quarts water per lb of grain

2. You want the mash to sit at 154F. You should start with hotter water because the mash tun and grain will soak up some of the heat

3. 1 hour at 154F for the mash to convert. You can check the conversion with an iodine test.

4. sure but you will either waste a lot of grain and/or you will need to boil it for a very long time

Click to expand...

For the best conversion to highly fermentable sugars, you'd want under 154F. that's a fine temperature for making a beer that has some body, but he wants a lot of fermentable sugar. I'd shoot more for 148F as my hour to 90 minute conversion rest.

and a double batch sparge to really rinse the grains.

I would think if you are distilling you would want to do a congress mash to extract the maximum amount of sugars.

Obvious troll..........subscribed!!!

beeton said:

I'm having trouble believing this is for real.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the help

jvlpdillon said:

Most of us, myself included, do 5-15 gallon batches. The theory is the same.

This really isn't complicated.



Also you didn't mention crushing the grain. To get the starch to convert you need to at a minimum crack the grain. The smaller the crush the more sugar will be converted. However flour is way too far.

Also Beer will not ferment dry like wine. expect your FG can stop around 1.030. I have had beers drop down to 1.004. Expect some where in between.

It is hard to comment on others because the there was not a recipe.

Click to expand...

It is roughly gound grain, not powder but also not whole kernels

maida7 said:

Here's the answers:
1. As much as you can fit in the mash tun. Use 1.25 quarts water per lb of grain

2. You want the mash to sit at 154F. You should start with hotter water because the mash tun and grain will soak up some of the heat

3. 1 hour at 154F for the mash to convert. You can check the conversion with an iodine test.

4. sure but you will either waste a lot of grain and/or you will need to boil it for a very long time

Click to expand...

Usually its easier to just answer a question than to be an ass. Well done

Dr Malt said:

I'm with beeton on this one. Is this for real?

If so, you made a few mistakes already. First, there is a difference between brewers malt and distillers malt. Distillers buy malt as cheap packets of starch digesting enzymes not a source of starch. Distillers malt is the thin barley kernels that are high in protein and produce high levels of alpha-amylase and Disatatic power (DP) when germinated. To get even higher enzyme levels, maltsters add a plant hormone (gib) to the grain during steeping. 2 row is great for brewing but 6 row is used for distillers malt due to their higher protein levels and resulting higher enzyme levels. Second, you want adjunct starch as it is the best priced material to generate fermentable sugars using the distillers malt.

As far as your other questions:

1. I would suggest checking the distilling literature for grain to water ratios not rely on brewing ratios.
2. Mash in water temperatures at the large volume you are using is something you will need to work out based on vessel size, its composition, etc. A start can be about 20 degrees above final mash temperature.
3. Use the iodine test for conversion.
4. Why would you want to?

Good Luck.

Dr Malt

Click to expand...

Im making a single malt whiskey, so adjunct grains arent allowed
There is no such thing as "distilling literature" Information in this industry is either figured out yourself or given to you by your peers.
Thanks

bullinachinashop said:

Your a production manager at a distillery and your asking us how to convert starches to sugar?
Either this is BS or you BS'ed your way into your job!

Click to expand...

GTFO. Really. We have been operational for 5 years making award winning vodka, rum, gin, brandys, and fruit liquors. All of which dont require conversions. I currently manage the operation of the production of 30 different products, split between wine and spirits. Craft whiskey is the next big thing, so we need to get in on it.

SKMO said:

Ditto this.

OP knows all about "all aspects of fermentation and distillation, but the hole in my current skills is related to mashing".

Troll..... Be Gone.

Pretty sure if I go to Cedar Rapids I'll be getting my beer in cans at a convenience store.

Click to expand...

Ok, I dont make beer. I make booze. Thanks for the help ass

MyNameIsPaul said:

/Subscribed for upcoming troll bashing.

Click to expand...

malkore said:

For the best conversion to highly fermentable sugars, you'd want under 154F. that's a fine temperature for making a beer that has some body, but he wants a lot of fermentable sugar. I'd shoot more for 148F as my hour to 90 minute conversion rest.

and a double batch sparge to really rinse the grains.

Click to expand...

Again, its usually easier to just answer the question.

kbrighton - for distilling you want to mash low. Lower than for beer. The goal is fermentability, not beer.

Mash at 140 F for a couple of hours. Then ferment like it is "beer", but you must get the FG to be either 1.000 or lower.

Then you distill that. But you seem to know about the distilling part.

The mashing part is basically like brewing, but the temps are lower to promote fermentability. The distilling is where the liquor happens, and the oak aging is where the whiskey happens!

kbrighton said:

Ok, I dont make beer. I make booze. Thanks for the help ass

Click to expand...

Well, you came to a Beer Brewing forum. Not a Distilling forum. You may want to find one of those. We're not very well versed in distilling because from a personal standpoint, it is illegal and we can't do it. Hope you find what you're looking for, I just think you're looking for your information in the wrong location. And you're extremely friendly attitude calling everyone and ass isn't likely to get you anywhere. We are not your standard internet forum, we all have each others backs, and won't tolerate rudeness towards any of our members.

kbrighton - Ignore them, they were being asses.

Good luck.

kbrighton said:

Usually its easier to just answer a question than to be an ass. Well done


GTFO. Really. We have been operational for 5 years making award winning vodka, rum, gin, brandys, and fruit liquors. All of which dont require conversions. I currently manage the operation of the production of 30 different products, split between wine and spirits. Craft whiskey is the next big thing, so we need to get in on it.

Ok, I dont make beer. I make booze. Thanks for the help ass

Click to expand...

Let's see, that's two "ass" comments and one GTFO.
You'll be happier in a different forum. Namecalling is the quickest way to get banned in this forum.

IrregularPulse said:

Well, you came to a Beer Brewing forum. Not a Distilling forum. You may want to find one of those. We're not very well versed in distilling because from a personal standpoint, it is illegal and we can't do it. Hope you find what you're looking for, I just think you're looking for your information in the wrong location. And you're extremely friendly attitude calling everyone and ass isn't likely to get you anywhere. We are not your standard internet forum, we all have each others backs, and won't tolerate rudeness towards any of our members.

Click to expand...

Oh, and the second quickest way to get banned in this forum is to talk about distilling.

We are a beer, wine, cider and mead forum. If you run a distillery, coming to a beer forum is silly, don't you think?

So, you're two for two. See you!

funkswing said:

kbrighton - Ignore them, they were being asses.

Good luck.

Click to expand...

Yooper said:

Let's see, that's two "ass" comments and one GTFO.
You'll be happier in a different forum. Namecalling is the quickest way to get banned in this forum.

Click to expand...

Perhaps you missed my comment, on why this gentleman is banned. I suggest you refrain from namecalling unless you choose to no longer participate in this forum either.

I still can't believe that the OP was actually for real.

wow, it takes all kinds I guess

-=Jason=-